Why do mages have the lowest mana pool out of all classes at level 18?

HP Crookshanks··21 votes·4,998 views

Isn't it supposed to be the other way around?

39 Comments

Frontline Fury20 votes

Probably because half the mage items give 500+ mana.

Z3Sleeper8 votes

I'll just leave this here.

Patch 8.9

Mages pretty much have two mana states: pre-mana purchase and post-mana purchase. During their first trip to lane, mages have to be very careful about when they cast spells or they risk going oom and being stuck in lane for a while with little or no mana. Once they've backed and acquired their laning item, many mages feel like they can spam spells almost mindlessly—especially with blue buff.

We're making a lot of changes to base mana, mana regeneration, and mana sustain mage items with the overall goal of letting mages be more spell happy at the start of the game, but more conscientious about when they use their spells in the early-mid game. With a bit more attention needing to be paid to mana, we're pumping a little more power (mostly ability power) into their core items so that when they do land a spell, it'll pack more punch.

OP needs to read patch notes before asking answered questions.

Pika Fox13 votes

Because they spec into mana heavily. Same with tanks; they have low base defensive stats because they grab items and have abilities that usually amp said stats.

Dracocrash3 votes

really?? Dont most tanks have high base armor/mr or hp?

Pika Fox3 votes

No, most have subpar ar/mr because most have defensive steroids that make up for it.

Dracocrash1 votes

Base stats of some tanks : Naut HP/armor/mr at lvl 18 = 2038/99/52 Malphite - 2104/100/53 Maokai -2180/107/53

I randomly picked 1 champ from every class, if i accidentally cherry picked a champ with low base stats for that class, it was not on purpose: Adc TWITCH -2021/78/38.5 Assasin FIZZ -2236/80.2/53.4 (Impressive hp but everything else is lower) Fighter JAX - 2037/87/53.4 Mage Annie-2020/87.2/38.5

As you can see all classes have lower armor than tanks across the board, and tanks are still in the top 10% when it comes to hp. So they do indeed have high base stats for tanking, even without their steroids.

Pika Fox1 votes

At level 18 maybe, not really at level 1.

ForFoxSakes1 votes

no, they have high base damage so they can build tank items and still be relevant

Dracocrash1 votes

Base stats of some tanks : Naut HP/armor/mr at lvl 18 = 2038/99/52 Malphite - 2104/100/53 Maokai -2180/107/53

I randomly picked 1 champ from every class, if i accidentally cherry picked a champ with low base stats for that class, it was not on purpose: Adc TWITCH -2021/78/38.5 Assasin FIZZ -2236/80.2/53.4 (Impressive hp but everything else is lower) Fighter JAX - 2037/87/53.4 Mage Annie-2020/87.2/38.5

As you can see all classes have lower armor than tanks across the board, and tanks are still in the top 10% when it comes to hp. So they do indeed have high base stats for tanking, even without their steroids.

Kurt Hyzan9 votes

Because they actually build mana. Take an example of champions with a revive mechanic, they have a lower health pool because of it (Anivia Zilean and not sure about that guy Aatrox )

HP Crookshanks11 votes

By that logic AD champions should have also low AD because they actually build AD.

Kurt Hyzan3 votes

Nah not really, early game the impact would be too big while being unnoticeable late-game, hence ruining their early game for no reason

Radiant Wukong3 votes

AD carries and assassins actually do have very low base ad at level 18 compared to all other champs.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

They do. Miss Fortune has less base AD than Anivia at all points in the game for example.

Dracocrash1 votes

Dont use missfortune as an example, she is an outlier as she has the lowest base ad of all adc champs (to compensate for her passive) Anivia AD at lvl 18 - 105 Twitch AD at lvl 18 -111 Tristana AD at lvl 18 -113 Sivir - 113 Jhin - 136 Kog'maw -113

The only adc i can find with lower AD than anivia are MF ( which is an outlier) and Vayne, who has had her base ad and ad per level nerfed constantly in the past because of her kit.

TLDR : Adc's have higher ad than mages in most cases

DontTouchMyBall9 votes

It balances out becuz they have to build mana and others dont have to build mana so they get bigger mana pools.

It's kinda the same logic on why Lissandra has a Q costs 80 mana rank 1. Because her passive gives a free spell so it balances out. (in other words, she has NOT a passive at all)

Anything besides a mage building mana is a waste of a stat, so give them the mana they need from the start. It's rito logic.

it feels unfair but since idk anything about balance i'll have to trust it is in fact balanced

Nyarlathοtep7 votes

Because riot is very bad at balancing.

Over Innsmouth4 votes

Tell me about it, Vlad has zero mana all game.

Dracocrash1 votes

he has high mana regen tho, once i saw a vlad use q and he got all his mana back :0

Tegash4 votes

"Mages need mana to do their job effectively, so in order to balance them, they need to have their mana gated!"

Mages having mana at all is already a gate.

By that logic all of Riven's non-ult abilities should have 30-second cooldowns.

[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Blåbæret3 votes

Because they wanted mages out of the game for good. Riot got their wish as mages are literally trash-tier.

Radiant Wukong2 votes

That'show it is supposed to be. Mages have to build their mana. AD carries have the lowest base AD lvl 18. Assassins/Carries have the highest base health/armor in the game because they shouldn't be building resistances.

Its exactly as it should be.

Malak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBJYedMh,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-06-26T15:47:18.398+0000)

That'show it is supposed to be. Mages have to build their mana. AD carries have the lowest base AD lvl 18. Assassins/Carries have the highest base health/armor in the game because they shouldn't be building resistances.

Its exactly as it should be.

I say give mana-using mages more hp/resistances then

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Melee mages do have higher resistances on par with divers/assassins.

Ranged mages have... range to their advantage. The most range in the game actually, so they need lower resistances to award people that actually can land a skill shot or get close to them.

Malak1 votes

actually not the case for some short ranged mages

Radiant Wukong1 votes

I said melee mages, not short ranged. Short ranged is still ranged. Those mages are either burst mages or battle mages. They have shields in their kit to compensate.

Just like Diana Ekko Kayle Elise have shields and heals (as do battle mages).

Please take champion kit into consideration when making comparisons.

Pyke is the perfect example of this. He has really high base armor and health.

Evelynn Shaco when used correctly always have a guaranteed escape from combat due to extreme camouflage and being active directly after their mobility skill.

Case by case. Every champion is unique.

Malak1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radiant Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBJYedMh,comment-id=000c0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-06-27T02:40:32.363+0000)

I said melee mages, not short ranged. Short ranged is still ranged. Those mages are either burst mages or battle mages. They have shields in their kit to compensate.

Just like Diana Ekko Kayle Elise have shields and heals (as do battle mages).

Please take champion kit into consideration when making comparisons.

Pyke is the perfect example of this. He has really high base armor and health.

Evelynn Shaco when used correctly always have a guaranteed escape from combat due to extreme camouflage and being active directly after their mobility skill.

Case by case. Every champion is unique.

tell me what shield karthus has

Radiant Wukong1 votes

Passive

Modl Ryden l2 votes

Because they supplement it with bonus mana from runes/items anyways.

Champions are designed inversely where they need to build more of their needed stats to be more effective rather than building more for the already high base stats.

This is seen in all classes.

Tanks have higher base AD and growth than Assassins and Marksmen Assassins, Mages, and Marksmen have higher base health than Tanks Supports and Mages have higher base stats and state scaling on their abilities

This way champions with high base mana can cast rotations without stalling their need output damage or heals/shields, champions who need to tank don't stall out their damage.

It serves additionally as staling for off-meta builds. As there will be significant fall off in utility, damage, and ability scaling if built to supplement bases rather than needs.

A tank Lucian will have higher defensive stats than a tank Sion, but unlike Sion, will have ZERO abilties or basic attacks scale with his bonus health or armor, rendering his kit to be massively subpar compared to Sion who will gain shield potency and damage potency on his E. And since Sion's base attack damage and growth his higher, the rest of his kit will still deal a fair amount of damage without have to sacrifice his 'survive-ability.'

DW Diana1 votes

I think a few people have touched on the reasoning, but there's also another one: item 3048 . we've seen what champions can do with basically unlimited mana and AP scaling OFF mana ( Ryze ), riot have made sure this doesn't happen across the board on an item that is probably the most popular mage item in the game.

Ignika D1 votes

tryndamere and mastery yi got huge lvl 1 and 18 hp and they got skimpy clothes while nautilous that is in a full armor got low hp

Troll for Trump1 votes

So they get punished for greedy full AP/HP builds with no mana in them.

Amoc4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oBJYedMh,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-06-26T13:23:30.009+0000)

So they get punished for greedy full AP/HP builds with no mana in them.

Except it also makes it difficult for them to itemize assassins, since item 3157 anditem 3102 give lousy stats and no mana, yet are almost required in certain assassin matchups. This leaves you struggling to keep an effective mana pool and you end up having to go back way more than you should. Meanwhile, resourceless assassins like Zed and Yasuo have no problem pushing and roaming as long as their health lasts.

Troll for Trump1 votes

I mean, that's the same with all the counter items. They give lousy stats in exchange for the niche ability to counter a champion. Building tank items on Juggernauts, Hexdrinker/Maw for assassins, QSS for adcs etc.

You could argue Mages need Zhonya's and Banshee's to the extent that they're more core items than niche items. That's something which has been an issue for basically forever.

Wolfeur1 votes

Because spells being their best tools and attacks, mana is meant to allow limitations to that. Mages need to be gated in mana to be balanced.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

Because they are designed to be dependant of their items for every mana, utility or damage centered issues. Problem is that those items are utter sh!t and almost looks like they were voluntarily designed to be the worst items in the whole roster

Ichi Exorz1 votes

Because logic.

Dracocrash1 votes

Contrary to what most people are saying AD champs tend to have a higher base ad /ad per level and tanks tend to have higher Armor or HP.

It is only the mages who got screwed in mana.

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