Mage items are really bad.

HP Crookshanks··39 votes·12,601 views

Almost every mage builds the same items (item 3285 item 3020 item 3135 item 3089 ). They have too little flexibility compared to other classes. Their other items are really bad and too situational.

item 3157 's active has a really high cooldown and you usually die as soon as the active ends anyway. It can counter Zed , Fizz etc. But Zhonya's give no mana which mages MUST build first and armor is the most unnoticeable stat in the game. They can still one shot you with their regular abilities.

item 3102 's cooldown should be decreased at later levels because ability cooldowns also decreases and it's really annoying that the shield pops because of a single item 3285 effect.

item 3003 was a really strong item after the AP item changes. But an AP item shouldn't be strong so it immediately got nerfed. Mage's mana pools(which it scales) are also got nerfed and illogically they have the worst mana pool at max level in the game now.

item 3151 is only good if the enemy team has high HP because it gives no flat magic pen now.

item 3027 is bad and rarely built because mages usually don't want to scale into late game because their damage is halved by a single MR item and mages don't stand a chance against a tank.

item 3165 is a nice counter to champions with sustain and it's flat magic is useful against squishies. But you have to fully build the item to get the grievous wounds.

item 3174 is mostly a support item. It used to be a great item but now it gives really bad stats and since item 1056 gives no mana regen it's even worse and useless. Supports can make use of it because of their mana regen items but why would they build it when they have better choices? And they have to damage the enemy champions to use passive.

item 3100 is a bad item for mages and auto attack range is dangerous for them because they are squishy and immobile and mages usually have bad auto attack animation. I sometimes see Lux and Ziggs build it and they usually fail because they can't use the passive at all or die while trying to use it.

item 3041 gives good AP for it's cost IF you have 25 stacks but you lose 10 stacks when you die and it's really easy to kill mages because of their immobility and squishiness.

item 3152 has a nice active but it gives only 60 AP.

item 3116 's slow is too weak after the nerf so only damage over time mages build it now like Brand or Malzahar .

item 3146 's build path is bad and is too expensive.

item 3030 's active could be better and item 3285 is superior to it.

item 3907 's active gives a really weak boost and it's too hard to gain 100 stacks so no one builds it.

I remind ALL mages are immobile and squishy with some exceptions:

Azir , Lissandra and Ziggs have dash/blink abilities in their kit but they are not reliable as real mobility abilites and clunky to use.

Ahri 's ult has an insane cooldown despite not being a game changing ult so she's mostly immobile.

Zoe is also immobile because when she uses her ult she blinks back to her cast location after 1 second.

Vladimir can be tanky because of his passive.

64 Comments

Kurt Hyzan21 votes

buT ZhoNYA iS thE moST bROkEN iTem

Hayaishi4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kurt Hyzan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0B5AAV1z,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-06-15T17:35:04.457+0000)

buT ZhoNYA iS thE moST bROkEN iTem

Are we in season 3 again?

GayFluffyUnicorn8 votes

It is. Proven by the fact it is one of the most nerfed and changed items in the game. Not the items fault bad players can't utilize its broken active.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

A 120 second CD that gives lack luster stats is far from broken. Between the two i have always felt maw was the better option. Lifeline activates automatically, gives lifesteal so its universally useful, has a lower CD and hexdrinker is a REALLY good item.

Velasan2 votes

{quoted}

It is. Proven by the fact it is one of the most nerfed and changed items in the game. Not the items fault bad players can't utilize its broken active.

It is definitely strong... but the active is no longer mage specific. Stopwatch is it's own item now and builds into 2 new items (Stoneplate and Guardian Angel).

Also, you can't kill the itemization for a whole set of champions because of one good item.

MFTORANK115 votes

I used to main mages, used to.

SweedishGunner11 votes

Ahri's ult is a low cooldown ultimate.

HP Crookshanks10 votes

I don't think so. It's 110/95/80 seconds which is normal when compared to other ult cooldowns but it's actually longer than that because the cooldown begin once all the 3 charges have been used or 10 seconds after the first charge has been used. Also there is a static 1 second cooldown between the charges. Even if it had 110/95/80 seconds cooldown it's still high because there are a lot of ultimate abilities that have much higher impact than Ahri's ult while having same/less cooldown. Such as Ashe AurelionSol Brand Fizz Orianna Zed Zilean etc

Evil Bisex Plant1 votes

How is Ahri's ultimate less gamechanging ability than these two: Zed Fizz - which open a strong oportunity of instakilling a primaty single target; this one: Zilean - which is a free out of jail card; this one: AurelionSol - which is something in between (one moment of safety/engage with CC vs. three possible separate moments of safety/engages)? The rest is just way too different and functions under way different circumstances to objectively judge and compare their strength.

HP Crookshanks2 votes

Fizz and Zed's ults are usually guaranteed kills because of their insane damage. Fizz's ult also knocks back surrounding enemies. Ahri usually burns her ult for escaping because she lacks damage and can't duel with the enemy. She also doesn't have another mobility ability, she lost her Q bonus ms and her new passive ms is not even noticeable. I rarely see Ahris get kills with their ults nowadays.

Evil Bisex Plant1 votes

So we'll compare the best outcome regarding Fizz and Zed ults to the worst outcome regarding Ahri ult? Holy shit, how come they ended up way better?

Try this: Fizz misses his ult. Zed ults an ADC, ADC get's a shield triple their max. health and Zed get's instantly CCed and blown up after the untargetability ends.

Ahri ult-charms a primary target with 0 reaction time, oneshots them with her rotation and jumps away, now the teamfight is 5v4 and Ahri can still dish out some CC and AoE damage.

See, you comment is irrelevant, it's the exact equivalent of listing out all things in champions' kits to prove how OP they are. Doesn't get you anywhere. And saying that the most flexible ult in the entire game (which is Ahri's) is bad? What's wrong with you.

SpecterVonBaren6 votes

Let me ask this. Do any of the other classes have build flexibility either? Cause I'm regularly building the same items every game on my individual supports so I don't see how this is somehow a mage item problem.

HP Crookshanks3 votes

If I'm playind an AD champion I can buy item 3155/item 3111 to counter APs or I can build item 3047 If the enemy is comp is full AD. If I'm playing a tank and enemy has a crit ADC I can build item 3143 or they have a dps mage I can build item 3194 . As a support If I want to roam a lot I can build item 3117 , if they have too much cc/magic damage then item 3111 , full ad item 3047 , cdr item 3158 etc. But as a mage if you don't buy item 3020 your damage will be noticeably lower.

ADs also have much more options to counter tanks item 3153 item 3124 item 3031 item 3033 item 3071 and item 3036 . APs only have item 3135 and item 3151 .

xelaker1 votes

{quoted}

Let me ask this. Do any of the other classes have build flexibility either? Cause I'm regularly building the same items every game on my individual supports so I don't see how this is somehow a mage item problem.

my exact thoughts

AirKingNeo4 votes

only item 3030 item 3152 item 3027 are weak and need buffs badly item 3100 MIGHT be too expensive, but idk item 3907 needs to stack faster item 3102 idk what to do to it, but it feels like it could use a minor buff item 3146 should be a bruiser item again

The rest are completely wrong.

Velasan1 votes

{quoted}

only item 3030 item 3152 item 3027 are weak and need buffs badly item 3100 MIGHT be too expensive, but idk item 3907 needs to stack faster item 3102 idk what to do to it, but it feels like it could use a minor buff item 3146 should be a bruiser item again

The rest are completely wrong.

To be fair I just want to point out that ROA really hasn't changed at all, it's just not as powerful as the Lost Chapter items and the health is less relevant when damage is really high (as it is currently). If the meta were different and damage was lower it wouldn't be as bad an item.

Otherwise yeah, definitely right. I would like if GLP was more of a catch item and it's stats and build reflected that.

AirKingNeo2 votes

ROA became useless when they did the mage rework because Catalyst became a shit item unless you had a toggle or spammed abilities.

Pika Fox3 votes

AP items are fine. I dont know where you all get this weird idea that somehow mages have major mana issues or only 1 build path.

Hong Kong Annie4 votes

Because most mages do have mana issues and are forced to build ludens, and from there most build the same items.

Pika Fox1 votes

They have mana issues if you spam your spell for no reason and miss the enemy champion 7/8 spellcasts.

Hong Kong Annie1 votes

No they just have mana issues, mages need to use spells to waveclear. Even the best off mages only have a hand full of rotations before they run oom. And again after the nerfs to tear the only option most mages have for mana is ludens.

Pika Fox1 votes

Ive yet to have any issues with mages anywhere, even if im just waveclearing on lux. Dont just spam to clear constantly and use autos and youre good. If the enemy hard shoves repeatedly youll get free damage on them via having more mana or theyll need to leave and lose minions to you shoving back.

Fedoran4 votes

Anivia Cassiopeia Azir AurelionSol Ryze Veigar Velkoz Viktor all of these champions (and possibly more) struggle a lot with mana. Some of them even end up going OOM in late game fights frequently.

Pika Fox1 votes

Viktor should max Q first now, and tear is still a good option as his shield scales off mana. Ryze has 0 mana issues literally building full mana. Veig also likely grabs tear. Velk shouldnt be spamming spells. Cass also likely runs tear. Anivia runs tear.

Literally only azir and aurelion should have any mana issues in your post, just dont spam mindlessly and waste your MP.

Fedoran3 votes

Actually no, Viktor still maxes E despite the buffs to Q. The waveclear and instantaneous poke is too valuable.

Also your mana arguments are largely invalid. Speaking as a Mid Lane Mage main (with most play on Anivia), building tear =/= manaless, especially after the nerfs. Most of them build tear because without it they would practically go OOM with 3 rotations. Ryze, Cass, and Anivia are using combos well over 200 mana all the time. Imagine playing an adc but every auto attack cost 100 mana late game.

Velkoz does spam spells. He needs them for waveclear and poke, just like Xerath (except xerath has a mana restore passive).

Pika Fox1 votes

Viktor should be maxing Q. You dont need to E minions much anymore, and can CS perfectly fine with Q. Its also better for most trades. AND COSTS LESS MANA. You know, that thing youre complaining about?

Ryze spams mostly to stack tear. Cass really shouldnt be spamming unless she lands Q on the enemy champ. Anivia only ever really OOMs overusing R, so dont overuse it.

Velk doesnt need to spam really. W is the only thing you really need for minions, and youll mostly be poking with Q when you can land it until you all in. Its not like youre going to be QWEW minions 24/7. Just because a spell is off CD doesnt mean it needs to be cast.

Jarring1 votes

whoa this is crazy.. any viktor that maxes q first would have to be farming under the tower the first half of the game unless they're vs some crap mid that doesn't know how to waveclear themselves.

Pika Fox1 votes

Then the enemy is oom and you have lane advantage. Plus you can last hit well with Q, as it has the Q proc and auto proc on a low CD and mana cost. Plus youll win most trades, as Q shield and movespeed on upgrade are surprisingly powerful.

Jarring1 votes

how do you assume the enemy is oom and you have lane advantage? any decent mid mage would just waveclear and gank bot or top while you have to sit and farm under tower with a weak lazer.

Pika Fox1 votes

Because even with just Q the enemy cant easily hard shove against you, and hard shoving takes a lot of mana to do. Besides, have you seen these posts above me? Apparently every mage is always oom because their spells cost soooooo much.

If the enemy hard shoves against you theyre open to harass. Spells were wasted on minions and now you have mana and CD advantage, and Q is potent single target damage.

Jarring1 votes

yeah idk i think they can.. easily hardshove against you anyways. most mages can easily hit an entire wave with one spell.. And what you're describing can easily be done by other champions much more efficiently(like assassins).

Pika Fox1 votes

1 spell wont full clear a wave early-mid game. Mid game it may one hit the casters, but by then your Q takes out 2/3 casters and is on a short CD and is back pretty much immediately, and you have a decent E.

Jarring1 votes

tbh it just sounds like you're playing against players that just let you get away with it. and didn't know how to respond. and as I said before, with the way you're playing viktor, it would be much more efficient to play an assassin like LB. What you're describing is not going to work every game vs competent players that will be able to have you farming under the turret... no decent player is going to let you trade with them after they just exhausted their c/ds.

Pika Fox1 votes

Then theyre still out most of their MP pool and lose lane control immediately after, being forced to either back or stay in lane with nothing to retaliate with because they expended all their resources to attempt to shove for 3 minutes.

Even if i cant trade immediately after, i have a massive resource advantage which becomes an HP advantage and a CS advantage.

Jarring1 votes

can we stop this repetitious cycle? lol. there's nothing else to say. I understand what you're saying, but all there is to it is that you abused it vs scrubs. They aren't going to run completely out of mana. competent players make use out of their waveclear. They don't do it without any sort of purpose. They pay attention to their mana and c/ds and back/roam when it is efficient. If they are getting low on mana a competent player can easily push a wave and back without missing any cs.

Marothennan3 votes

even after ap items get buffed people still bitch, this is nothing but another mage circlejerk, nothing to see here

SanKakU2 votes

[deleted]

Fedoran6 votes

Well thats because you spam norms games and are unranked... most of your builds would be troll in an actually competitive match.

SanKakU1 votes

[deleted]

Fedoran2 votes

I agree on itemization, very important. However some items are straight troll or unviable on some champions. Personally I would never build Wit’s End Orianna or Iceborn Gauntlet Veigar like you did. Something like muramana on a mage is pretty much trolling

DoktorKaiser2 votes

I have mained mages for 8 years. Now I don't. That should say it all.

Targon2 votes

Most mages right now are high risk low rewards picks with being one of the most stat hungry classes, weak itemization compared to AD itemization, having low mobility, mostly unreliable damage, and falling off like a brick in the mid-late game if you don't get fed (or simply get outscaled by a lot of the AD roster).

Batman20211 votes

Is League the same as Dota 2. I think Dota 2 is way superior

Jarring1 votes

League is dota 2 on easy mode. but yeah they are basically the same. League is a lot more about reaction times, and making quick combos with skill shots where dota 2 is a lot more about macro and team play. There are many things in dota 2 that aren't in League that make it the easier game: You can't deny CS/champions by last hitting your own creeps/champions You can't stack jg camps and pull them to your minion waves You don't lose gold when you die You can just spam spells with a HUGE mana pool whereas in dota you'd have to spec into mana/mana regen to spam anything more than once or twice. and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

If you're unable to utilize lichbane on lux you shouldn't be playing lux. It's pretty much her damn passive.

Jeanne fan club1 votes

item 3089 needs to be broken into different versions that all offer % bonus ability power, but offer different stats like armor or health or mana etc. Obviously the bonus ap would be reduced, but the point is that if an item that gives %bonus ap is going to be in the game, it will be built A LOT on champions that use ap. putting the %bonus ap unique passive on more items will inevitably cause more diversity because then you can itemize against certain compositions easier. IDK, maybe straight up rip item 3090 (without its active) from twisted treeline, make a health and an mr varient and delete rabadons. Or maybe throw a % bonus ap ratio on item 3905 and see what happens? Do some stupid crap and maybe something diverse will come out of it.

item 3285 is kind of unhealthy in the way that it is abused. For champions like Zoe, this is her one item power spike, and all she needs to 1 shot most champions in the game. Its a one item powerspike, which is good in a meta where champions don't usually finish 2 items before the game is over, but still, kind of unhealthy. Maybe an item like this should just give bonus damage to minions directly if it is to be a waveclear item.

item 3020 and item 3165. Magic penn is always a good stat. Its super snowbally, and is only combated by tanks. Riot should either remove this stat entirely, and add a lot more ap to ap items, or reduce the magic penn on these items, but give more items magic penn. The latter option is probably better considering champs often have less base mr than armor, and it adds a lot more options for champs who want magic penn.

item 3135 It gives % magic penn, Its a must buy. literally nothing changes this unless % magic penn is added to more items.

item 3102 FOR HECKS SAKE!!! MAKE NULL MAGIC MANTLE BUILD INTO NEGATRON CLOAK FOR THE BUILD PATH!!!!!!!!!. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS THE ONLY BUFF THIS ITEM NEEDS.

item 3116 item 3151 item 3115 item 3100 item 3003 I think these all fulfill their niche pretty well. item 3100 is a surprisingly versatile item that I usually build on Ahri (highly recommend)

item 3030 Give it 10 extra ap, and make all the bolts fire at once, its kind of wierd how they don't. Maybe lower the active cooldown a little bit, or make it do extra damage to minions so that it serves as an alternative to ludens.

Can't think of anything for other items atm. If you want variety, you have to diversify important stats like magic penn, % magic penn, % bonus ap

Jarring1 votes

i agree.... SO MUCH. I really.. REALLY miss the old abyssal scepter. Old Morello's Old Liandry's even the old Athene's was a really nice item to choose when you needed CDR but not grievous wounds and could use the MR Yeah, mage items DO suck, and we have hardly any options compared to what it used to be like.

EnigmaticMachine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=HP Crookshanks,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=0B5AAV1z,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-06-15T17:22:44.787+0000)

Almost every mage builds the same items (item 3285 item 3020 item 3135 item 3089 ). They have too little flexibility compared to other classes. Their other items are really bad and too situational.

item 3157 's active has a really high cooldown and you usually die as soon as the active ends anyway. It can counter Zed , Fizz etc. But Zhonya's give no mana which mages MUST build first and armor is the most unnoticeable stat in the game. They can still one shot you with their regular abilities.

item 3102 's cooldown should be decreased at later levels because ability cooldowns also decreases and it's really annoying that the shield pops because of a single item 3285 effect.

item 3003 was a really strong item after the AP item changes. But an AP item shouldn't be strong so it immediately got nerfed. Mage's mana pools(which it scales) are also got nerfed and illogically they have the worst mana pool at max level in the game now.

item 3151 is only good if the enemy team has high HP because it gives no flat magic pen now.

item 3027 is bad and rarely built because mages usually don't want to scale into late game because their damage is halved by a single MR item and mages don't stand a chance against a tank.

item 3165 is a nice counter to champions with sustain and it's flat magic is useful against squishies. But you have to fully build the item to get the grievous wounds.

item 3174 is mostly a support item. It used to be a great item but now it gives really bad stats and since item 1056 gives no mana regen it's even worse and useless. Supports can make use of it because of their mana regen items but why would they build it when they have better choices? And they have to damage the enemy champions to use passive.

item 3100 is a bad item for mages and auto attack range is dangerous for them because they are squishy and immobile and mages usually have bad auto attack animation. I sometimes see Lux and Ziggs build it and they usually fail because they can't use the passive at all or die while trying to use it.

item 3041 gives good AP for it's cost IF you have 25 stacks but you lose 10 stacks when you die and it's really easy to kill mages because of their immobility and squishiness.

item 3152 has a nice active but it gives only 60 AP.

item 3116 's slow is too weak after the nerf so only damage over time mages build it now like Brand or Malzahar .

item 3146 's build path is bad and is too expensive.

item 3030 's active could be better and item 3285 is superior to it.

item 3907 's active gives a really weak boost and it's too hard to gain 100 stacks so no one builds it.

I remind ALL mages are immobile and squishy with some exceptions:

Azir , Lissandra and Ziggs have dash/blink abilities in their kit but they are not reliable as real mobility abilites and clunky to use.

Ahri 's ult has an insane cooldown despite not being a game changing ult so she's mostly immobile.

Zoe is also immobile because when she uses her ult she blinks back to her cast location after 1 second.

Vladimir can be tanky because of his passive.

Why would you change a build that allows you to 1v9?

DGOT1 votes

i like this comment section comments on the op thngs mages have and the post too i am amazed

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