Yes, that's what I'm calling them. This isn't a small gameplay change, you've literally done nothing but remove power from his passive, and ult, and compensated him with a measly 10% AP ratio increase to his Q's damage and some small interactivity between his ult and W. The changes to ult probably will kill tank Ekko, that's a good thing. But you're killing Assassin Ekko at the same time
RiotRiot ThEntropist4 votesHey man,
I was the playtester on Ekko. Working really hard to make sure AP Ekko is still very viable and good without just making him oneshot everybody.
Passive: Slow Removed Base Damage down at later ranks
Q: Ratio up to compensate for base damage down on passive
R: Way more healing if you are build AP. It's seriously a lot more.
Also looking to give him some mana regen buffs so that he doesn't run oom in the early/mid game as often.
Hopefully this will be enough to offset the nerfs
Jbels1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot ThEntropist,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAawvpbh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-10-19T18:36:28.759+0000)
Hey man,
I was the playtester on Ekko. Working really hard to make sure AP Ekko is still very viable and good without just making him oneshot everybody.
Passive: Slow Removed Base Damage down at later ranks
Q: Ratio up to compensate for base damage down on passive
R: Way more healing if you are build AP. It's seriously a lot more.
Also looking to give him some mana regen buffs so that he doesn't run oom in the early/mid game as often.
Hopefully this will be enough to offset the nerfs
Thanks, I used to play Ekko all the time, but I stopped because I was afraid he would just keep getting nerfed. The changes just looked very worrisome. Mana has definitely been a problem for him early, I'd be glad if he got some regen buffs for that
Shadow Hazard1 votesHonestly the only change that I would want is to have the cooldown on the passive lock out be lowered for jungle monsters, that was a massive hit to jungle ekko when that change was made to the passive before, with the lowered base AD simply kicking a horse while it is down for jungle ekko.
RiotRiot ThEntropist4 votesJungle Ekko is one of my favorite ways to play him. During Rumble(our internal tournament) I played jungle Ekko pretty much every game.
I am definitely trying to keep Jungle Ekko in mind but it is not the main focus sadly. He still is definitely able to clear and have impact, it just may not be as optimal as it was before.
J Eevo1 votesI'm going to take the chance here, and write up some questions and thoughts I had regarding the recent changes - Just curious about some decisions in the works, though I really appreciate ANY work you put into working on Ekko, hopefully he'll hit that balance sweet spot and stabilize soon :3
PARDON MY WALL OF TEXT
There was a quote that came out some time ago about the changes on pbe and it was: EKKO:
Which I guess the plays will be riskier all right since he loses his slow on the passive, but the thing in return that he got was a 10% bump on Q ratio. Which I find fine mind you, considering the ratio went from 20%(which is TERRIBLE) to 30% (which is kinda bad still but better than 20) Except... Timewinder is actually a two parter and the spell collapsing and slingshotting back to ekko has a separate ratio of 60%.
So if you want to promote "Riskier plays" wouldn't it make sense to up the ratio on the second part, seeing as it is harder to hit than the first one, sometimes requiring you to reposition yourself for it to hit etc?
The R change I find, well since I tend to build Ekko very squishy, the ult tends to heal up to almost full anyway, and that still doesn't matter since if you're built glass cannon already you're gonna pop fast either way, isn't it kind redundant on glass cannon builds, or is he just supposed to build more tanky(rylais, roa, protobelt)??.
And the overall trend to lower bases (again) and up ratios seems very worrying considering it shifts his power more into lategame, and also makes it so he's better when ahead, and worse when behind, another thing which was supposed to be adressed in regards to Assassin gameplay in general, any plans to remedy that if it becomes an issue?
RiotRiot ThEntropist2 votesSo if you want to promote "Riskier plays" wouldn't it make sense to up the ratio on the second part, seeing as it is harder to hit than the first one, sometimes requiring you to reposition yourself for it to hit etc?
This is true to a point, but considering the Q1 was so slow, it felt like a decent place to bump up without it feeling bad to play against.
The R change I find, well since I tend to build Ekko very squishy, the ult tends to heal up to almost full anyway, and that still doesn't matter since if you're built glass cannon already you're gonna pop fast either way, isn't it kind redundant on glass cannon builds, or is he just supposed to build more tanky(rylais, roa, protobelt)??.
You shouldn't be healing to full from low right now on live. This will pretty much always be significantly more healing compared to live, which means you are able to jump back into fights once your cds are up and keep contributing. Hopefully this will allow you to make more aggressive place before and after your ult since you can count on the heal being impactful.
And the overall trend to lower bases (again) and up ratios seems very worrying considering it shifts his power more into lategame, and also makes it so he's better when ahead, and worse when behind, another thing which was supposed to be addressed in regards to Assassin gameplay in general, any plans to remedy that if it becomes an issue?
Tried really hard not to just lower bases and raise ratios. Did this in one place because it felt like a decent space to do it, but I believe we intentionally held off of doing more than that even though it was considered (W, Q(more), etc).
Also he already has a lot of things he can contribute when behind, he is probably one of the best assassins in this sense. He can waveclear really well(much better with the new ratio), he can contribute slows, stuns, and zone control. Overall this is probably much less of a problem for Ekko compared to much of the other assassins.
Kobold1 votesHonest Question on His Ultimate
Why is it still a heal (other than for thematic reasons of course), The way I see it if it was transitioned into a Temp HP which fell off rapidly it would push him away from tanky builds and also not invalidate entire trades. This would also allow you to push some buffs or changes into making his ultimate more about the damage and less about the heal, which seems to be one of the reasons people hate fighting him as he can shrug off the damage dealt to him.
An Undead brat3 votesWell what a shame, we sure are all crying in the corner, right? We're so sad we won't see Ekko in our games, right? RIGHT?!
[slayer-jinx-wink]
Jbels1 votes[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAawvpbh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-19T16:31:21.476+0000)
Well what a shame, we sure are all crying in the corner, right? We're so sad we won't see Ekko in our games, right? RIGHT?!
[slayer-jinx-wink]
That's no excuse for poor balance choices. There are plenty of Ekkos out there playing him as intended who are going to be screwed over by these changes
PureSilvrr1 votesCan you explain how the ult and w interact now
Jbels1 votesCan you explain how the ult and w interact now
No, I can't, because even Riot isn't being very clear on it. All it says is Using Chronobreak (R) to go through Ekko's W will trigger the shield and stun. Trigger it where? Where you go through it? Where you end up with Chronobreak?
PureSilvrr1 votesI honestly think that they gave Ekkos ult its own W stun... but what happens to his w...
An Undead brat1 votesNonsence, it's totally clear. You go through the W you land before and it activates.
IEvenTiltTime1 votesCan you explain how the ult and w interact now
If the rewind path of his R intresects his W slow zone it activates the W stun and shield where it was cast. Much like simply walking through it.
AttackOnTeemos1 votesHe is an AP Burst Champion that people only used for a tank, heaven forbid people actually have to try to play him.
Jbels1 votesHe is an AP Burst Champion that people only used for a tank, heaven forbid people actually have to try to play him.
Problem with that, they played him like a tank because he had so much utility while still having decent damage on his bases. He has always had naturally low AP scaling on all of his abilities except his ult, which had it's base damage nerfed because of tank Ekko. They removed the slow from his passive, they've already nerfed the duration of the stun, and now the healing on ult only works if you build full AP. This solves none of Assassin Ekko's issues as a design, and only serves to exacerbate them.
AttackOnTeemos1 votes[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAawvpbh,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-10-19T16:37:17.875+0000)
Problem with that, they played him like a tank because he had so much utility while still having decent damage on his bases. He has always had naturally low AP scaling on all of his abilities except his ult, which had it's base damage nerfed because of tank Ekko. They removed the slow from his passive, they've already nerfed the duration of the stun, and now the healing on ult only works if you build full AP. This solves none of Assassin Ekko's issues as a design, and only serves to exacerbate them.
You get hit with a skill or by his normal attacks and 3 stacks you get hurt, He has a skill that gives him a shield. Hell he is a male version of diana if you think of it.. With exception of his ultimate If you build him full ap, that lich bane will hurt anyone. >->
Jbels1 votesYou get hit with a skill or by his normal attacks and 3 stacks you get hurt, He has a skill that gives him a shield. Hell he is a male version of diana if you think of it.. With exception of his ultimate If you build him full ap, that lich bane will hurt anyone. >->
I would agree with you if we were talking about AP Ekko as he was when he was nerfed, when he was fine and balanced and nobody built him like a tank at all yet. But we're talking about AP Ekko after he has suffered numerous nerfs that were aimed at Tank Ekko but still hurt AP Ekko as well, and now he's about to get more nerfs? This makes no sense
AttackOnTeemos1 votes[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAawvpbh,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-19T16:43:12.412+0000)
I would agree with you if we were talking about AP Ekko as he was when he was nerfed, when he was fine and balanced and nobody built him like a tank at all yet. But we're talking about AP Ekko after he has suffered numerous nerfs that were aimed at Tank Ekko but still hurt AP Ekko as well, and now he's about to get more nerfs? This makes no sense
Either way, even if he has lower damage, he still have his survival kit. I've seen his ultimate save him from several occasions. So what if he can't just nuke someone, he can still poke at people and once he is level 6 you can't really fb him, unless he literally over pushes with his ult.
Jbels1 votesEither way, even if he has lower damage, he still have his survival kit. I've seen his ultimate save him from several occasions. So what if he can't just nuke someone, he can still poke at people and once he is level 6 you can't really fb him, unless he literally over pushes with his ult.
But he doesn't survive. When an Ekko goes in during a team fight, the most he can do is get his target low, and then ult out. If he doesn't, he dies. If he can land the stun on multiple members of the team, he might actually be able to do something, but considering how difficult that already is, eh. Now he does even less damage on passive and will find it even harder to stay on targets
AttackOnTeemos1 votes[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=oAawvpbh,comment-id=000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-19T17:26:59.484+0000)
But he doesn't survive. When an Ekko goes in during a team fight, the most he can do is get his target low, and then ult out. If he doesn't, he dies. If he can land the stun on multiple members of the team, he might actually be able to do something, but considering how difficult that already is, eh. Now he does even less damage on passive and will find it even harder to stay on targets
If he is assassin why is he going INTO teamfights then, You catch someone who is off guard. I can't think of any assassins that IF they get CCed they are not screwed.
Erockandroll1 votesHe is an AP Burst Champion that people only used for a tank, heaven forbid people actually have to try to play him.
Though by putting more of his Damage on his Q, they are in fact boosting is primary poke and wave clear. Giving him a much more magier kit. (like he had on release)
By doing that, they are making sure his Damage build doesn't become nearly as feast or famine.