I want this item to have 120 AP and 50 armor like it used to. Let Zhonyas be great again! Also wanted to say I think most of the other AP items are fine, but morellonomicon should be nerfed and hextech glp should be buffed. Everything else is fine I think.
DuskDaUmbreon3 votesI think having high offensive powers on a highly defensive item is a bad idea. The only exceptions to this should be either final purchases (i.e. something like Rabadon's, which is only meant to be gold efficient in late-game), or items that have hilariously high costs, preventing them from being rushed.
It works on Wooglet's because it only really has a lot of power in late, and because TT is a faster map.
Cloud2734 votesI think having high offensive powers on a highly defensive item is a bad idea. The only exceptions to this should be either final purchases (i.e. something like Rabadon's, which is only meant to be gold efficient in late-game), or items that have hilariously high costs, preventing them from being rushed.
It works on Wooglet's because it only really has a lot of power in late, and because TT is a faster map.
What about Talon and Zed getting hexdrinker/maw? Why is it fair for them to rush this item and auto win every trade?
The Yetii Rider4 votesWhat about Talon and Zed getting hexdrinker/maw? Why is it fair for them to rush this item and auto win every trade?
Because they are melee champions. Mages have range, and mages have AOE. Mages are a much bigger threat to the entire enemy team than an assassin is. If a mage is hard to kill, they have no weaknesses.
Cloud2733 votes[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5pQumW2,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-10-11T20:38:58.956+0000)
Because they are melee champions. Mages have range, and mages have AOE. Mages are a much bigger threat to the entire enemy team than an assassin is. If a mage is hard to kill, they have no weaknesses.
Zed also has range and aoe. Zed is hard to kill because of instant repositioning and untarget abilities.
The Yetii Rider2 votesAnd Zed builds 0 armor items. Huh. Wonder if there's a reason for that.
Armor is leagues better than MR. Don't even try and argue that. Go into any game and count the number of armor items a tank has versus the number of MR items a tank has. Better yet, count the number of times you see a marksman or support building Ninja Tabi and then the number of times you see them with Merc Treads.
Zed's AOE is reduced drastically. His shurikens deal less damage as they pass through targets. Mages don't have that issue, they fire off giant AOE and deal max damage to everyone.
DuskDaUmbreon4 votesBecause 
and 
aren't big-ticket offensive items, they're defensive items with decent offensive parts. Hexdrinker in particular gives a laughable 20 AD, equatable to a meager 2 longswords.
And it doesn't have them autowin trades. It really doesn't. It grants no CC immunity, no sustain, just about an extra 5-10 points of damage with some half-decent defense. Effectively, it's the exact same as a mage picking up a chain vest and an amplifying tome, with a shield on a relatively high cool down.
Besides. Just because a few champions get an item that's a bit too strong in early game doesn't mean that mages need an item that gives massive offense and strong defense. 120 AP on a defensive item is too high, simple as that.
Imagine if Guardian Angel gave 70 AD and 50 armor. That would be too fucking strong, without a single doubt, and the boards would scream about it. It's almost identical to your situation of giving Zhonya's 120 AP and 50 armor.
AirKingNeo2 votesBecause Maw and Hexdrinker fall off the face of the planet while Zhonya's active is literally the strongest thing in the entire game.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesWell. Not quite the strongest. There are definitely some abilities that are even better (cough Lissandra's R cough), while Maw doesn't exactly fall off that hard (remains a decent defensive item in late, when combined with some sustain).
And, depending on the situation, one could argue for GA's revive being better than Stasis. In some situations.
AirKingNeo1 votesMaw falls off pretty hard especially now that Edge of Night doesn't give MR anymore.
Seriously, when's the last time you saw a bruiser build Maw?
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesI see it relatively often on champions like Yasuo, and on some marksmen when they need the MR. Not so much on bruisers.
AirKingNeo1 votesand notice they lose substantial damage.
MysticDreams121 votesIt's not the strongest anymore since they nerfed it. A full leveled Zed with 3 points in his R and CDR can ult you at least twice in the timespan that the active is down because Riot stupidly nerfed the active from 90 seconds to 120 seconds.
So you can only use it to save yourself once out of three Zed ults.
Despicable.
AirKingNeo1 votesand Zhonyas in a teamfight zones everyone away from you since your combo will come back up plus gives your team time to aid you.
It's not an item you rush. Stop rushing it. Build Morello and poke him out of lane or wave clear him out and roam. That's why any argument about it doesn't matter because HOURGLASS ISN'T A LANING ITEM AND WON'T BE EFFECTIVE IN LANE.
MysticDreams121 votesWell that doesn't always happen, a lot of the time you use it then bam die right after.
I know it's not an item you rush. But rushing a damage item against Zed is also bad if he gets the jump on you and your spells are down. Not to mention you won't have any armor to defend so he'll go through your health much more easily. So it's a gamble by doing that.
Paroe3 votesI think having high offensive powers on a highly defensive item is a bad idea. The only exceptions to this should be either final purchases (i.e. something like Rabadon's, which is only meant to be gold efficient in late-game), or items that have hilariously high costs, preventing them from being rushed.
It works on Wooglet's because it only really has a lot of power in late, and because TT is a faster map.
All big ticket (3000g+) items with strong offensive AND defensive traits.
Its an AD bias, and it needs to stop. AD already scales better than AP, has by far better itemization and variety, AND is a lot more gold efficient.
DuskDaUmbreon2 votesBloodthirster and Gunblade are primarily offense, with defensive characteristics. Lifesteal (in any form) is one of those "offensively defensive" stats, a defensive thing brought on by offense, no different than, say, Pantheon's passive. The items themselves give no true defense (beyond Bloodthirster's overheal shield), and Lifesteal is a 50-50 stat. So they're partially defensive offense items, such as Black Cleaver is.
Mercurial Scimitar is neither strong offense or defense, it's a mixture of both. Like Zhonya's currently is.
Maw is primarily defense, with offensive characteristics. It's like slapping some AD onto a tank item and taking away the health. It doesn't change that it's a defensive item, it's just favorable for damage-dealers, now.
Its an AD bias, and it needs to stop. AD already scales better than AP, has by far better itemization and variety, AND is a lot more gold efficient.
The only bias is the boards hatred of marksmen.
AD and AP have roughly equatable scalings. One does not inherently scale better than the other. The champions that use them do.
Itemization sucks ass for everyone. Mages have two builds, marksmen have two builds (three, if you actually count lethality as a build, but they're really just AD burst mages if they're building lethality), tanks have one build, AD assassins have one build, AP assassins have one build, enchanters have one build, juggernauts have one to two builds, bruisers have one to two builds...
Itemization just sucks ass for everyone. Nobody has any real choices. Don't pretend it's just mages.
And, sure, a good number of AD items are more gold efficient than AP items. But you're forgetting that marksmen take, at the very, absolute least, one more item than a mage to be able to do anything. No marksman comes online before two items (Teemo and Quinn don't count at all, because they haven't been ADCs in ages), and every mage comes online with one item (some 1.5 items, some even less than an item). Meaning that mages require less gold before they can actually do something.
ARAM ZooKeeper3 votes
Isn't worth it early in my opinion. If I'm laning against 
I'll just use 
instead.
By the time I've built it is usually only good for 1 or 2 saves in the lane-phase of the game. Plus the lack of mana regen sucks ass early on when you could have a chance to punish dive-assasins as a mage.
At low ELOs especially, unless I get a thresh lantern... teams typically can't take advantage of a well time anyway... I switched to 
and it has been far more effective late game. Mages aren't going to survive AD late game with or without armor.
Cloud2732 votes[{quoted}](name=BBQ In Mid Lane,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o5pQumW2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-10-12T14:50:28.519+0000)
By the time I've built
At low ELOs especially, unless I get a thresh lantern... teams typically can't take advantage of a well time
See this guy knows. The item sucks.
AirKingNeo1 votesHourglass isn't an early game item either. It's a teamfighting active for zoning and time stalling.
ARAM ZooKeeper2 votesHourglass isn't an early game item either. It's a teamfighting active for zoning and time stalling.
Yet the only time having armor is actually beneficial to a squishy mage is in the lane phase/early game. After that you're still a 1 shot to most champs.
2 Seconds of stasis isn't very useful in a teamfight if you're the AP carry. Unless you're a champ like Fizz, with an escape that you can use to follow the up with, it typically just sends a signal to the other team "in 2 seconds, melt this guy here". At least that's what I do when I see players use it. It is typically a desperation move anyway... and only is beneficial if your team is aware, which they probably weren't if you had to pop it to begin with.
Not saying I haven't seen some awesome plays with it (Thresh lantern especially)
I'm just saying for a mage in mid, is much better, because MR can actually make a difference early and late game.
AirKingNeo1 votes2 Seconds of stasis isn't very useful in a teamfight if you're the AP carry.
and it is very useful and that's why every AP champion builds it.
ARAM ZooKeeper1 votesand it is very useful and that's why every AP champion builds it.
Only at a high level with a full team in discord working together. Not in low ELOs with randoms
Ahris2 votesNerf morello and something has to be buffed. All other ap items were nerfed.
DuskDaUmbreon1 votesHe literally said "nerf morello and buff hextech GLP"...
Oleandervine1 votesI like Zhonya being an accessible utility item, as against some compositions you need to build it fast and possibly at a disadvantage.
Clayblob21 votesYeah...Just play with an 
on your team :)
https://media.giphy.com/media/JRldDuaByxnb2/giphy.gif
GrievousFetus1 votesIf you make Zhonya's a big AP item that means you're going to force AP champs to buy it as a stat stick even if they don't want the active.
Just give us DFG back Riot fuck.
Erockandroll1 votesIf you make Zhonya's a big AP item that means you're going to force AP champs to buy it as a stat stick even if they don't want the active.
Just give us DFG back Riot fuck.
You don't remember why Rito removed it in the first place? it was pretty much because every Mage under the sun could buy it, and become an Assassin.
Plus you would have the same problem. It would become a must buy just because it was stat stick. This is pretty much why Riot has tried sticking to a single item for being the Big ticket AP item. (Death Cap) While trying to normalize the AP values of the other items. The problem then became items with too much utility getting their AP nerfed. (Crystal scepter, Zonyas)
GrievousFetus1 votesYeah I remember DFG. I remember there was nothing wrong and it should have never been removed.
ARAM ZooKeeper1 votesActually I was just thinking - in terms of mage vs assassin:
If assassins can build 
that gives them the CC debuff removal on their path to ... why can't mages get the Stasis utility from 
on their path to ?
Obviously balancing would need to be done in terms of cost, but just pointing out for mages to get their counter-assassin utility, they need to invest in a 2900 item whereas assassins only need 1300 for their counter-mage utility.
