Time for a Black Cleaver nerf

Nhifu·May 2, 2017·6 votes·1,508 views

When the jungle top and even ADC buys this item, somethings wrong :P

I think it needs a cost increase or removing the movespeed out of it, since BC is such a high competitor with Trinity force

25 Comments

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20177 votes

when Lucian and Graves are in every game, then ofc cleaver is in every game.

put a mele only tag on it, and that problem is solved and youll only find it 50% of the time on your top laner. you know. the guys the item was made for and who are fine with cleaver.

Busty DemonessMay 2, 20171 votes

Don't forget MissFortune

SolomonSlaysMay 2, 20176 votes

They already nerfed it. The items fine imo.

ChotenMay 2, 20172 votes

I'd be sad if they ever touched it. Black Cleaver is a staple for my top lane AD champs. Perfect for making a Tanky AD champ since the only other options are Frozen Mallet which takes too long before you get any damage, and Titanic Hydra which isn't the best for every champ. It'd be like not getting Infinity Edge on an AD Carry.

KivolanMay 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I'd be sad if they ever touched it. Black Cleaver is a staple for my top lane AD champs. Perfect for making a Tanky AD champ since the only other options are Frozen Mallet which takes too long before you get any damage, and Titanic Hydra which isn't the best for every champ. It'd be like not getting Infinity Edge on an AD Carry.

That's exactly why Rylais was nerfed, though. "Too good on every champion".

Eternal TormentMay 2, 20171 votes

they just nerfed it a few patches ago, the item is just fine. it is the Players that are wrong and honestly, they gutted mf varus and massively nerfed jhin indirectly. so as long as people Keep building cleaver on adcs, i dont see riot stopping the adc nerfs.

KivolanMay 2, 20171 votes

Cleaver nerfs were due the day it was reworked.

HP, AP and a Slow are unacceptable, need a huge nerf item 3116 HP, AD, CDR, Movement Speed, and Armor Shred are okay though. item 3071

Rylais was completely busted on a few champions with DoT spells but was fine on everyone else, but Cleaver is broken on pretty much anyone. :l

meowwow7May 2, 20171 votes

you do know that they removed the movement speed from it when they replaced the item 3044 with a item 3067 ? now it just provides cdr, hp, ad, and armor shred

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

you do know that they removed the movement speed from it when they replaced the with a ? now it just provides cdr, hp, ad, and armor shred

they replaced item 3133 with item 3067

item 3044 is still in the recipe.

i repeat my previous statement. none of the top laners the item is actually made for is an issue with the item. it wouldnt be in every game, if youd prevent marksmen from being able to buy it.

DeathBurstMay 2, 20173 votes

Lol, wut? They replaced the item 3133 with a item 3067 . The item 3044 is still there, and the movement speed too.

LuggMay 2, 20171 votes

RIght now BC is a MUST BUY on pretty much every bruiser and juggernaut. Riot has expressly said that no item should be a must build.

So nerfs are definitely in order. If nothing else, it needs to be more expensive.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20172 votes

{quoted}

RIght now BC is a MUST BUY on pretty much every bruiser and juggernaut. Riot has expressly said that no item should be a must build.

So nerfs are definitely in order. If nothing else, it needs to be more expensive.

they made it to be a core item on those champions. i mean are we gonna nerf item 3031 item 3046 item 3035 too when most adc build the same items? what about item 3165 item 3020 item 3089 ?

and not every jugg buys cleaver. only the ones who are supposed to synergize with it.

like Yorick Nasus Volibear Trundle would rather build item 3078 for example.

the issue really isnt juggs.

LuggMay 2, 20171 votes

I'm fine with an item being the best thing for the majority of matchups. However, when an item is built every game regardless, then there's probably a problem.

Also, BC is a great item for Yorick, Nasus, and Voli since they can always use the movement speed buff. Trundle doesn't need the MS due to his kit.

Morellos does need some adjustments. It gives everyhting. If an item gives lots of stats, the level of stats should be low. Sorcerer shoes aren't a must buy for any AP champ, there are lots of good boot options and you pick the one to best suit the individual game. Deathcap isn't efficient unless you have other AP items. It's almost never built until late.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20172 votes

{quoted} Also, BC is a great item for Yorick, Nasus, and Voli since they can always use the movement speed buff. Trundle doesn't need the MS due to his kit.

triforce gives more movement speed. it has the same rage passive, and additional % movement speed on top of it.

the additional attack speed and sheen procs also syngerize more with these champions kit than cleaver.

like most of the bruisers on top lane either lean towards item 3078 or item 3071 so its not the issue. while many of them have cleaver as a core item, which is intended, its not bought on all of them.

RalanrMay 2, 20171 votes

It shares movement speed rage with triforce because of phage you know.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

Preventing ranged champions from buying it might curb Lucian and Graves, but it also makes Gnar basically complete trash.

As long as Cleaver's a strong, affordable, well-rounded item that grants 20% CDR on top of its other benefits, it's going to be widely used. It grants extra durability and triple-dips on physical damage (AD, armor shred, and CDR for more ability casts).

I say this every time this comes up, but both Cleaver and Morello shouldn't have 20% CDR on top of their strong offensive capabilities at their price point. It makes them almost always the right answer for champions that buy them, and gives a ton of extra power to the purchase. Just cut their CDR in half, and put 10% CDR on some other items if you have to to cover the difference (I don't think this is necessary in Morello's case, since several AP items have CDR anyway).

Like, make Sterak's Gage build out of Jaurim's and Kindlegem, so it has 10% CDR. Space the CDR out in builds rather than offering half of it up-front on an already core item.

/-/-/

Also, reduce Black Cleaver's armor shred per stack to 2%, raise the cap to 12 stacks, and have melee champions apply 2 stacks. Ranged champions should take longer to stack the armor shred since they benefit more from the Rage passive.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2017-05-02T17:43:50.233+0000)

Preventing ranged champions from buying it might curb Lucian and Graves

and nothing of value was lost. they can balance them around crit itemization. i really couldnt care less what happens to lucian and graves upon nerfing an item that was never intended for them to use.

the needs of the champions the item is targeted at come first. lucian, graves and jayce have no say in the matter.

but it also makes Gnar basically complete trash.

except that he could still trigger it in melee form. in ranged form he shouldnt have access to it for the same reason adc shouldnt have access to it. he plays like a bitch and constantly pokes with auto attacks and his boomerang.

his w on its own is strong enough to keep him relevant.

worst case they could just half the amount of cleaver stacks for ranged champions.

even if that change completely dumpsters gnar, they could go ahead and rebalance him afterwards. trashing cleaver for everyone, so its not op on lucian and graves is fucking retarded.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-05-02T17:53:56.385+0000)

except that he could still trigger it in melee form

Trigger what part?

What part of Cleaver would be locked from ranged? Both of its passives only look for you to be doing physical damage. Making Rage melee only on just Black Cleaver is a very inelegant solution, compared to Tiamat where the entire item line's effects are melee only from the start.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T18:27:05.691+0000) What part of Cleaver would be locked from ranged? Both of its passives only look for you to be doing physical damage.

its armor shred passive.

Making Rage melee only on just Black Cleaver is a very inelegant solution

you could make the same arguments for item 3085 . neither component is locked out for melee champions.

i dont give a fuck how elegant it is or if it doesnt look pretty on the tooltip. it is effective. you want to reduce the amount of champions that buy cleaver in every game? this is a solution that doesnt hit the melee bruisers the item is made for, period.

as far as the components being locked out for ranged champions goes, doesnt make sense in this case. item 3044 still builds into triforce and item 3067 into other items.

item 3077 only builds into melee items.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T18:36:15.089+0000)

you could make the same arguments for . neither component is locked out for melee champions.

Neither of the components have the Wind's Fury passive.

That's the point I'm making. You have Phage, with a Rage passive that anyone can use. Upgrade it to Cleaver, and suddenly the passive is made melee only. That's a very arbitrary fix.

i dont give a fuck how elegant it is or if it doesnt look pretty on the tooltip. it is effective. you want to reduce the amount of champions that buy cleaver in every game? this is a solution that doesnt hit the melee bruisers the item is made for, period.

Cleaver's made for AD casters, not just melee bruisers. Jayce, Lucian, Graves, MF, Gnar, Varus, etc... are just as much AD casters as Darius, Renekton, Garen, Riven, etc... Hell, Miss Fortune's one of the signature users of Cleaver and has been for ages.

My comment about halving Cleaver's CDR is just a general game health thing that also extends to Morellonomicon, as I said. The two items have the exact same ubiquity problem, and the 20% CDR is the root of said problem. It bottlenecks build diversity when the two are automatically the best first item for 90% of their users.

Cleaver is still 91% stat-efficient if you just cut its CDR in half, which when you factor in its passives still makes it extremely slot-efficient. Then they can add some CDR to other melee bruiser items. Like, as I said, Sterak's.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=00080000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T19:08:35.082+0000)

Neither of the components have the Wind's Fury passive.

neither of cleavers components have the armor shred passive.

Cleaver's made for AD casters, not just melee bruisers.

no it isnt. thats the entire reason they reverted the recipe to be more health focused. to make the item benefit bruisers more than ad carries. because it is a bruiser item.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T19:11:01.958+0000)

no it isnt. thats the entire reason they reverted the recipe to be more health focused. to make the item benefit bruisers more than ad carries. because it is a bruiser item.

Actually, the recipe was reverted mostly so that you couldn't sit on three Long Swords to go into an item that granted durability.

The change didn't really make the end item noticeably better or worse for anyone, so you still have all the same champions building it.

If they didn't want all AD casters to be building it, it wouldn't give 20% CDR. That CDR is particularly strong on Lucian and Graves due to their dashes.

Also, the Rage passive is already halved on ranged champions, on all items that have it.

Critmaster GarenMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lost Marbles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=0008000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T19:17:28.920+0000)

Actually, the recipe was reverted mostly so that you couldn't sit on three Long Swords to go into an item that granted durability.

The change didn't really make the end item noticeably better or worse for anyone, so you still have all the same champions building it.

If they didn't want all AD casters to be building it, it wouldn't give 20% CDR. That CDR is particularly strong on Lucian and Graves due to their dashes.

Also, the Rage passive is already halved on ranged champions, on all items that have it.

they want spell based bruises to build it. not graves and lucian.

putting more of its gold cost into health benefits bruisers more than adc who would want to stack the longswords for more damage to synergize with the rest of their ad focused builds and multipliers.

juggernauts scale better with health.

so for them the increased health over ad doesnt make a difference. for adc it delayes their power spike and makes the build path less comfortable.

The Lost MarblesMay 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o3HTjJNE,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-02T19:32:45.821+0000)

they want spell based bruises to build it. not graves and lucian.

putting more of its gold cost into health benefits bruisers more than adc who would want to stack the longswords for more damage to synergize with the rest of their ad focused builds and multipliers.

juggernauts scale better with health.

so for them the increased health over ad doesnt make a difference. for adc it delayes their power spike and makes the build path less comfortable.

Ranged AD casters (the champions you take issue with) really like the CDR that Cleaver gives. As long as it gives that CDR, they're going to like the item, because it's highly slot-efficient even without the shred.

Hell, I feel like Lucian would buy it anyway even without the armor shred. 40 AD + Rage + 20% CDR for a fairly low price is too good to pass up with how his kit functions.