Riot remember how you wanted to normalize mana costs for champs?

IsIsGankedParis·Jul 13, 2015·43 votes·3,763 views

Can you look into the following champs?

The following have this mana cost for their ult.

Amumu (100 / 150 / 200) Draven (120 / 120 / 120) Jarvan IV (100 / 125 / 150) Karthus (150 / 175 / 200) Orianna (100 / 125 / 150) Pantheon (125 / 125 / 125) Singed (150 / 150 / 150) Skarner (100 / 125 / 150) Satan (75 / 100 / 125) Twisted Fate (150 / 125 / 100) Twitch (100 / 125 / 150) Veigar (125 / 125 / 125) Vi (100 / 125 / 150) Warwick (100 / 125 / 150) Zilean (125 / 150 / 175) Zyra (100 / 120 / 140)

Most other champs have 100/100/100 mana costs for their ults.

Credit for Lissama for showing me the following.

Also Amumu Q costs 120 mana at rank 5, can you look into that as well?

53 Comments

Lord DusteonJul 13, 20159 votes

Prety sure most of those are intended due to how powerful they are (Amumu, AoE blind and root. Karthus, global damage on all enemy champions. Skarner, Point and click Suppression + displacement. Zyra, AoE damage and knockup + plant buff). While some are a bit weird (Draven 120? Singed?) I can see why Riot would want mana to constrain most of these.

Teridax68Jul 14, 201510 votes

Aren't most of these abilities already gated by other, more relevant factors, though? Karthus 's ult has the longest cooldown in the game, Skarner 's ultimate is ostensibly more difficult to use and less deadly than Malzahar 's, who can use his for a near-guaranteed kill, Zyra 's ult is more difficult to use, less damaging and on a higher base cooldown than Malphite 's, which costs 100 mana, and the same goes for Amumu 's ult. I feel like a reduced mana pool, higher cooldowns or higher mana costs on other effects would all be better gates to the use of those abilities than an awkward ult cost.

kile147Jul 14, 20152 votes

But karthus also isn't gated by death, so... just suicide I guess?

Teridax68Jul 14, 20153 votes

That's more of a quirk of his character, but even so, there are costs associated with that: if Karthus channels when alive, he can easily get interrupted during the 3-second duration, and turns himself into a sitting duck; if he dies while channeling he also gets interrupted, and if he channels while dead, then he essentially paid for a guaranteed ult with a wad of gold and experience for the enemy team, plus significant personal downtime along with his ult's cooldown. In fact, considering how his ult costs nothing when cast during his mid-death passive, that sounds like even less reason to give it an excessively large mana cost in the first place.

kile147Jul 14, 20151 votes

I don't disagree and if they really want to normalize ult costs then they should for him as well, I just never understood normalizing ult costs in the first place.

Teridax68Jul 14, 20151 votes

Basically, it's about placing all ult mana costs at a level that is constant and predictable, so that their gate is the choice associated with using them and not their mana cost. Standardized ult costs are about making ult casts less about mana management and more about when to or not to ult, somewhat independently of mana constraints. A minimum cost would make sense, since you might not want some champions to ult when they're completely out of resources (hello release Ekko ), but past that there's little need for a mana gate.

kile147Jul 14, 20151 votes

But I mean Corki definitely shouldn't have that expensive of an ult, whereas someone like who has a super strong ult maybe should be more expensive. While Ekko should definitely have an ult cost, not everyone has an ult that needs that expensive of a cost, or any at all.

Teridax68Jul 14, 20151 votes

Fair enough, but in Corki's case his ultimate isn't a "normal" ult, and by normal ult I mean a hugely powerful ability on a long cooldown. The same goes for Kassadin or KogMaw 's ults, which are meant to be relatively small and spammable spells more akin to basic abilities. In these cases, there isn't as much of a decision-making factor, since using those ults doesn't incur too much of an expense in terms of cooldowns or downtimes (they's more often gated by mana, though).

TheI3igDaddyJul 14, 20153 votes

I think Karthus' is also that mana-intensive because Riot goes "Yeah, you should PROBABLY wait to use this until you're dead."

AbyssphereJul 14, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=o06st3p8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-07-13T23:29:57.134+0000)

Prety sure most of those are intended due to how powerful they are (Amumu, AoE blind and root. Karthus, global damage on all enemy champions. Skarner, Point and click Suppression + displacement. Zyra, AoE damage and knockup + plant buff). While some are a bit weird (Draven 120? Singed?) I can see why Riot would want mana to constrain most of these.

This argument holds no water because for every ultimate mentioned that's expensive because "it's super powerful" you can think of one that's comparable and cheaper. I guarantee that if people like Janna or Bard had ultimates costing 200 mana you'd be saying "I can see why that's expensive" but ... Riot made Janna's cost 100 mana and Bard got released with a 100 mana cost on his ultimate.

I mean if Riot had ever recently released champions with ultimates costing more than 100 mana then I could believe they have these weird costs on champs to gate their power, but given they have not released a champion with an ultimate costing more than 100 mana in a long time (even though they've released a champion who can teleport himself and an ally across the map, AND a champion who can put Zhonya's on entire teams, baron or towers!), it is so clearly just an outdated design that has basically no relevance to the modern game.

I mean someone made a thread asking why Crescendo cost 200 mana at max rank and a Rioter's response was literally "I don't know, I'll see if we can fix that", which they then proceeded to do that in the very next patch. There was clearly no actual thought put into that ultimate's mana cost, it was just left that way because nobody cared enough to change it. That is so obviously the reason half of the ultimates on the above list are still costing the amount they do, and if it weren't for people like Amumu and Orianna already being extremely good, I'm sure Riot would be very easily convinced to standardise their mana costs.

The Bíg TicketJul 14, 20154 votes

Every single one of Malzahar's spells costs 100 mana or more at max rank

Q: 100 Mana W: 110 Mana E: 120 Mana R: 100 Mana

IsIsGankedParisJul 14, 20151 votes

I can understand his E being so high, but his W COULD be 100.

Hard PenetratorJul 14, 20153 votes

He has mana return mechanic, With lower mana costs, good Malzahar players would practically have infinite mana in lane, no thank you.

AbyssphereJul 13, 20153 votes

The funny thing is how many of those champions could use the buff. Twitch would cause no problems at all with a 100 mana ult but would love that change. Veigar is the same and Draven too. Draven's ult cost can be so annoying in the laning phase compared to other ADCs, especially when his mana isn't the best anyway.

Teridax68Jul 14, 201512 votes

It's weird how both Veigar and Zilean recently got mini-reworks and subsequent buffs, yet never had their ult costs standardized in the process.

ModAcademy KaynJul 14, 20151 votes

Zilean has a GA on a shorter Cd and Viegar has a Point and click nuke. I think they deserve a few limitations for their strength.

Teridax68Jul 14, 20155 votes

... but they did. Zilean's reduced cooldown on his ult was just a compensation buff for decoupling it from Rewind, which could actually reduce its cooldown to even lower amounts. Veigar got a huge amount of reliability shaved off, on his Q and especially his W, and his ult got its AP ratio reduced. Both of these champions ended up being objectively weaker than they were prior to their reworks, which is why they received a host of buffs immediately afterwards. Standardized ult costs just happened to not be among them.

ArkenStormJul 14, 20151 votes

veigar got the ratio reduced. (who cares though, i don't and i'm a veigar main. with 1200 AP it makes no difference whether its 1.0 or 1.2 ratio >:D )

3TWarriorJul 13, 20153 votes

amumu has high mana costs because his kit uses very little overall, for isntance, his trademark Despair drains only 8 Mana per second

it ends up doing more damage than swains ult usually and his drains his entire mana pool in a few seconds early game and by late game he never has any items

meanwhile amumu assassinates anyone with low hp

his Q has high costs because it's a dash mixed with crowd control more than likely though

if it was targeted, it'd probably cost 200 because of how often he uses it

IsIsGankedParisJul 13, 20156 votes

The Q doesn't make as much sense for being so high, there are other champs with dash's that have crowd controls with way less mana cost, look at Thresh, Leona, Malphite, and Nautilus.

3TWarriorJul 14, 20151 votes

thresh doesn't stun with his (but I think it roots? not sure), leona's I kind of agree on since it has range and passes through minions...but she has to spend her combo preemptively, so if it misses she loses more mana

malphite is his ultimate, natilus doesn't do as much damage over time and has a high initial burst on long cooldown

IsIsGankedParisJul 14, 20157 votes

Thresh Q is a stun.

Malphite costs 100 mana as an ULTIMATE and can knockup an ENTIRE TEAM, Amumu Q costs 120 and only stuns 1 person.

58npNTjPshJul 14, 20151 votes

Too bad its an ulti, i could see ranged alistar Q for 120 mana, you could call that op, but look at you making a ton of conditions, Amumu q scales decent ap, doubles leona's e, is far less a cooldown of a malphite ult, Thresh in most cases is a support, and Nautilus cant jukerino with camps because of terrain. Amumu q is utility, cc, damage, and engage.

TotalJerkJul 14, 20151 votes

The thing is that if Amumu lands a Q in a 5v5 while his ult is up, he often automatically wins the teamfight.

KoldheartedjspJul 14, 20153 votes

lol satan

poor teemo

always compared to lucifer

JJ H0GJul 14, 20152 votes

Lucifer is the Lightbringer.

Satan is just a giggle douchemanlet.

FadedpfJul 14, 20151 votes

Fuck satan though.... teemo can burn :^)

XeroKimoJul 14, 20153 votes

Karthus Who gives about karthus ult being at 200 late game..... he'll always be using it dead anyways unless someone who got caught out manages to escape

AikkiJul 14, 20153 votes

Lux's E costs 130 mana at rank 5.

G1RadiobotJul 14, 20153 votes

Guys, I think Riven has 0 mana on her ult. We should normalize that to 100

Silents429Jul 14, 20152 votes

Because it isn't as simple as "LOLOL LETS CUT THE MANA COST"

Balance exists even if they try to normalize it, some champions can actually be brought to power with mana cost reduction.

The LexerJul 14, 20152 votes

Well a lot of those champions could use the buff

Silents429Jul 14, 20151 votes

Most of them don't need a buff. And the rest would need something beyond some mana reduction. Which again isn't as easy as knocking the numbers down.

zFlash96Jul 14, 20152 votes

Normalization is bs.

Mana costs are balanced around the ultimate in itself, not around every other champions'.

Also, 100 is too low for big AoE ultimates anyways (Sona, Nami, Cassio, Ziggs, Viktor, MF, Gragas, Graves, Soraka, Janna, Sejuani). 2 second AoE stuns and 1000 damage AoE nukes would be well worth blowing a quarter of mana pool.

Poorly DressedJul 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Normalization is bs.

Mana costs are balanced around the ultimate in itself, not around every other champions'.

Also, 100 is too low for big AoE ultimates anyways (Sona, Nami, Cassio, Ziggs, Viktor, MF, Gragas, Graves, Soraka, Janna, Sejuani). 2 second AoE stuns and 1000 damage AoE nukes would be well worth blowing a quarter of mana pool.

Meanwhile Riven, 0 costs, low cooldown - alright

Drunk12YearOldJul 14, 20152 votes

Upvoted for Satan reference Teemo summoner 14

SammystormJul 14, 20151 votes

Anivia doesn't make it on this list with 120 mana q at max rank?

SaltyKrackaJul 14, 20151 votes

Nasus' E costs 130 mana at max rank.

The LovelessJul 14, 20153 votes

Lol how do they determine what gets a certain mana cost? Wither is probably more lethal than spirit fire.

SaiannaJul 14, 20151 votes

I'd add Taric. That guy has serious mana issues. I'm damn sure he belongs to Manaholics Anonymous group.

Also don't forget about Katarina! Her mana gating on R makes her unplayable!

Malix FarwinJul 14, 20151 votes

where's teemo.. oh wait...

ZorsusJul 14, 20151 votes

meanwhile Fiddlesticks abilities all cost a sh*t ton of mana

SmokinSickStyleJul 14, 20151 votes

Are you serious?

Outside few champs, none of those you listen must have lower mana on their ults, simply because they are one of the most powerful ones, other champs have 100 mana because they don't have Karthus like ult (If you use it while in passive it doesn't even cost anything...) or even amumu, or the point and click ranged CC such as Vi's \ WW, to not talk about TF's, possibly one of the best ults in the game.

I'm glad that amumu's Q costs that much at max rank, that thing has the same hitbox as a cho'gath full stack with elixir of iron and ulted by lulu, many times they just throw that toilet paper and it still hits you changing direction at the last frame, for no reason at all, much like old LB's chain.

If they fix the hitbox i could accept the mana reduction, which is something i prefer.

CatastropJul 14, 20151 votes

To be honest, I'd really like to see Orianna's ult go down slightly, 125 at all ranks. This doesn't completely limit her but does make you think about spamming that 2.25 second Q.

LissamaJul 14, 20151 votes

<3 Also Talon (80 / 90 / 100)

Avios1Jul 14, 20151 votes

Katarina (0/0/0) Yasuo (0/0/0) Zed (IDK if he has a cost, not like he ever has one) LeBlanc (0/0/0(wtf.)) Etc.

Vistha KaiJul 15, 20151 votes

Zed's still limited with his ult, as in, he can't blow his basic spells and then ult without cooldowns and/or Energy.

Kat and LB tho...

Aeolian MelodiesJul 15, 20151 votes

Janna's tornado costs 90 / 105 / 120 / 135 / 150 MANA

150 is more than many ults and as much as many others. Wth?

The Yetii RiderJul 15, 20151 votes

Pantheon is only balanced in top lane by his ability to eat his entire mana bar in a full rotation. If Riot wanted to make it easier for champs like Panth and Jayce to be good, AD mana itemization wouldn't be so awful.

Amumu's Curse of the Sad Mummy cost is so high because Riot wants him to use it at the beginning of the fight rather than as a clean up. This way, if you throw your Q (100 mana) plus spam your E and keep your W up, your ult becomes unavailable even in the late game.

Karthus's ultimate costs so much to emphasize its power during his passive, when it costs 0 mana and when you should be using it anyway.

Singed's ultimate grants him mana regeneration. If you made the cost 100 it would literally be the same as making it cost nothing.

Teemo's Noxious Trap is pretty much the only consistent source of mana use in his kit. His Blind and his Ult are both very overcosted because well basically Riot wants him to be manaless with his E and his W so they have to make his mana bar drop somehow.

If you need an explanation for why Twisted Fate's Destiny costs 150 mana in the early game then you clearly haven't been here for very long. Before Twisted Fate's Loaded Dice passive was reworked, his global passive and global map pressure made him pretty much 100% pick/ban in Korea.

Vi's ultimate is supposed to be used as an engage, so it follows the same logic as Amumu's. These abilities are far too powerful if used after you've already come ahead in the fight, they prevent narrow escapes and punish immobile champions.

Warwick - Again, Warwick is an old champion like Teemo who has very little mana usage in his kit. His Q and his ultimate are overcosted because one of his abilities is a passive and one of them is a buff that costs almost no mana and has a very long CD.

Zilean's ultimate is overcosted from a relic of a bygone era where he could bring it back up every 30 seconds.

Zyra's Stranglethorns has the largest AOE knock up in the entire game (and knock ups can't be reduced by Tenacity). I think 140 mana is too low, to be honest.