Jax has to build AP to strengthen his magic damage aspects

SquashCannon·Jan 17, 2017·8 votes·1,147 views

Why is Jayce allowed to build AD while still strengthening his magic damage?

29 Comments

IcyPepperJan 17, 20177 votes

Because they're two different champions with two different kits meant to build differently?

SquashCannonJan 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because they're two different champions with two different kits meant to build differently?

Theyre both hybrid damage fighters meant to build quite a bit of damage. I contest the idea that because these two hybrids are different champions that one gets to build all AD and even AD pen while still outputting stupid amounts of magic damage while another has to have more balance and isnt allowed to build pen at all.

ScissorsNstuffJan 17, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Why is Jayce allowed to build AD while still strengthening his magic damage?

you know that's a bad thing right? Magic damage with AD scaling? It makes your ability less reliable.

SNSD SunnnyJan 17, 20174 votes

what are you smoking that is a very good thing, it makes your opponent itemize inefficiently while you don't

WoonStruckJan 17, 20172 votes

Its actually really bad.

Its the sole reason Jax is shit right now.

If he got on-hit physical damage, he could build armor pen and wouldn't fall off.

Right now, he's shit because magic pen and armor pen are both terrible on him.

heavily mixed physical and magic damage hasn't been good since season 2 or 3 unless you have a source of innate penetration in your kit.

Zero Skill TankJan 17, 20175 votes

Like Jax fell off holy cow

WoonStruckJan 17, 20171 votes

Ever tried fighting anything with any resistances/health past 15 minutes?

Unless you're facing horrible players, you're gunna have a really bad time.

The only reason Jayce gets away with it is his R shred...and he STILL falls of REALLY hard. Look at his winrates based on time if you don't believe me.

Early game is all Jayce has. If he doesn't get an advantage there, he probably loses. However, his early game is obviously far too strong right now.

Jax doesn't even have early game to work with. He has to spike HARD with trinity force and gunblade. If he doesn't make things happen there, he WILL lose vs decent players.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20171 votes

You don't have to get gunblade on him.

And the things with resistances he just ends up outdueling a lot of the times. Some exceptions are his hard counters, like Darius .

Mixed dmg prevents them from outitemizing him, assuming both jax and the target have the same gold income. If you're 0/4 Jax with gunblade + triforce, obviously you won't do dmg to the 3/0/3 tank.

WoonStruckJan 17, 20171 votes

TF+Gunblade is considered 100% core on him atm.

Darius isn't a hard-counter. Jax is actually one of the champions that can easily deal with him, ironically.

Actual tanks and other skirmishers/divers? Jax generally loses hard. He beats most juggernauts.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20171 votes

TF+Gunblade is considered 100% core on him atm.

It's one of the options. Jax is extremely versatile. It was most "core-esque" in maybe season 2 or 3. The guy has a lot of options. While you do need triforce, you don't NEED gunblade everygame.

Jax outscales almost everything, but he doesn't counter Darius. It's one of the matchups that can swing more based on jg influence, though. And, most jglers will camp the Darius because Jax scale's better, while the jgler on Darius's side sits in the jg doing nothing.

He doesn't lose to tanks unless the jgler on the tank player's side interferes.

GrandpaTheGreatJan 17, 20172 votes

Jax isn't even that bad at the moment

RexSaurJan 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Its actually really bad.

Its the sole reason Jax is shit right now.

If he got on-hit physical damage, he could build armor pen and wouldn't fall off.

Right now, he's shit because magic pen and armor pen are both terrible on him.

heavily mixed physical and magic damage hasn't been good since season 2 or 3 unless you have a source of innate penetration in your kit.

The issue isnt that jax is weak because he has hybrid dmg so he cant itemize for pen, back then not every champion needed to build pen to stay relevant in 1v1s or fights against ppl with armor or mr (in fact having hybrid dmg was good because then they couldnt just stack armor or mr, and if they stacked health you could just shred them with botrk and on hits).

The issue is that tank kits and items are so ridiculously overpowed that you NEED a pen item to be able to fight them or you lose, so all that needs to be fixed is tank itemization being completely over the line and some tanks having ridiculous kits like poppy (% health shield, % armor, % mr, %hp damage who the fuck though this was a good idea?).

FalconPawwwwnchJan 17, 20171 votes

This

ScissorsNstuffJan 17, 20172 votes

it doesn't, it just means your damage wont scale that well with your penetration and obviously can't crit.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20172 votes

Jayce doesn't get crit. I think all champs with those types of scalings (Ap to phys dmg, AD to magic dmg) don't get crit. I'm not even sure if there's an ability that scales off of AP and does physical damage.
If you don't think hybrid is a bad thing, you haven't seen devourer jglers (Udyr,Jax,Kayle,WW), Yi, pre-rework Darius, and release Draven.

Ad scaling magic damage is really bad to deal with.

But Jayce is far from the only one who does that.

Jayce's W active in hammer form is nothing, but his E's obnoxious. Not just in damage, but knockback+slow.

ScissorsNstuffJan 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Jayce doesn't get crit.

because he doesn't have the scaling for it.

I think all champs with those types of scalings (Ap to phys dmg, AD to magic dmg) don't get crit. I'm not even sure if there's an ability that scales off of AP and does physical damage.

Evelynn Quinn Jhin LeeSin MissFortune Ezreal Corki Irelia

If you don't think hybrid is a bad thing, you haven't seen devourer jglers (Udyr,Jax,Kayle,WW), Yi, pre-rework Darius, and release Draven.

Yes, hybrid can be strong when there's onhit in the meta but even then they weren't strong because they were hybrid, they were strong because AS was silly. Even without the AP and mixed damage they'd have been strong and when they got countered it was partly because of that same mixed damage.

Ad scaling magic damage is really bad to deal with.

when youre squishy yes

But Jayce is far from the only one who does that.

he also only does it at short range. His E used to do it. He does have one ranged way to do it but then its just poke.. or was that on his melee attack as well

Jayce's W active in hammer form is nothing, but his E's obnoxious. Not just in damage, but knockback+slow.

reengage. Don't waste all engage just to get to him. Some champs will suffer against jayce but he wont be as strong lategame if he wants to actually deal damage. If he passes on heavy damage then he just ends up with a wonky and cumbersome kit to exploit with mixed damage meaning he cant just rely on something like penetration

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20172 votes

when youre squishy yes

Nope, applies to everything in general

he also only does it at short range. His E used to do it. He does have one ranged way to do it but then its just poke.. or was that on his melee attack as well

Jayce's E in melee form still scales off AD but does magic dmg. So does his initial hit after he switches to hammer form. A lot of people disregard the bonuses Jayce gets when he switches forms; they do a lot, and are key to his burst comboes. His cannon form abilities all do physical dmg and scale off AD.

reengage. Don't waste all engage just to get to him. Some champs will suffer against jayce but he wont be as strong lategame if he wants to actually deal damage. If he passes on heavy damage then he just ends up with a wonky and cumbersome kit to exploit with mixed damage meaning he cant just rely on something like penetration

Because all top lane champs have multiple ways to engage /s. You either don't take the initiative and he just pokes you from afar being ranged. Or, when you try to engage, he just QE slaps you away. Take Darius for instance. Do not take summoner spells into account for this example. You either try to farm with Q and W, becoming subject to his QE poke combo. Or you try to stop him from poking you to under 50% with EWQ. But nope, he just QEs you out of the way anytime you try getting close to him. Basically, the only way you can fight him is engaging without using your E, which means walking up and AA+Wing as Darius. Which is impossible until you get phage and/or have ghost/stormraider's (you shouldn't be taking stormraider's vs him, but that's up to the player).

Yep, he falls off lategame. Doesn't change him from being obnoxious to lane against. Same thing with Panth for instance. Pantheon has a toxic kit with almost no counterplay, except "live past laning phase and he becomes a sitting duck"

WoonStruckJan 17, 20171 votes

Yi, Xin, Nid, MF, Vik
Devourer was an issue due to all of the forms of % HP damage and flat damage, as well as everything being multiplied by the passive. Not because it was mixed damage. Mixed damage is a very, very small part of why it was strong, and that mostly applied solely to Shyvanna (more %HP damage) and Yi (true damage).

Strange how you don't include Rageblade, when it was strong.

Pre-rework Darius did nearly all physical. His passive dealing magic damage was far from the reason he was an issue, especially since you often started with much more MR than armor, and early game was his strength.

Draven has never dealt any magic damage. The bleed was always physical.

Jayce's E doesn't slow. His Q does.

Jayce W doesn't scale with AD at all. Its his E that deals magic damage and scales with AD.

Its his Q that's doing the majority of his damage, not his E. 8% HP damage is pretty standard and nothing huge. 1.0 bonus AD ratio isn't stellar either. Just appreciable. 240+120% AD? Now that hurts.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20171 votes

Darius's bleeding doing magic dmg was one of the reasons why he was a great bully; you couldn't get mr that early in the game.

Rageblade was strong, but it didn't feel as notable as devourer's phantom hit. Guinsoo didn't bring anything new, while the phantom-hit was "Saved" for later use and brought adc jglers into the spotlight. Much more obnoxious than rageblade.

Don't forget Feral Flare or back when devourer's could have unlimited stacks..

Jayce's Q is flat dmg. You mostly stack armor vs him, so it ends up hurting less. The cc from it is more obnoxious. HIs E ends up doing a lot more, because it scales with AD, but does magic dmg.

WoonStruckJan 17, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Darius's bleeding doing magic dmg was one of the reasons why he was a great bully; you couldn't get mr that early in the game.

Meanwhile everyone starts with 30 MR and ~20-25 armor; armor doesn't usually surpass MR for about 6 levels on a good amount of champs.

Yup. It was definitely stronger than if it were physical early. You got me. :^)

Jayce's Q is flat dmg. You mostly stack armor vs him, so it ends up hurting less. The cc from it is more obnoxious. HIs E ends up doing a lot more, because it scales with AD, but does magic dmg.

Depends on which point in the game, which champion, and what you're building.

Jayce is a general problem, not just to tanks attempting to counter-build him.

Troll for TrumpJan 17, 20171 votes

What I don't like is the situation when the enemy Ziggs(for instance) is 8/0, but im laning against a Jayce. If I build MR, I deal with the fed ziggs but get shat on by jayce. If I build armor, Ziggs just obliterates you. If you build hybrid, you do a sht job at tanking both.

And, if you complain about it, either the Jayce/Ziggs will go "you have 0 (armor/MR) items, rofl noob"

CalabokJan 17, 20172 votes

Jax is fine.

Mostro GalloJan 17, 20172 votes

It's almost like different champions are different. crazy to think about huh

FalconPawwwwnchJan 17, 20172 votes

Because Jayce is fuckin busted and Riot has a hard on for that champ

MunchCrunchLunchJan 17, 20172 votes

Jax gets fucked by 90% of laners basically making him usless for 35 minutes. Jayce fucks Jax so hard in lane basically you're gonna get carried or you lose. he will E you when you try to stun him. and fuck you up in lane