I honestly think maw is too strong of an item.

YoungFarmer·Aug 17, 2016·55 votes·3,207 views

If you're an ap mage maw takes away almost all of your kill potential in lane. Zhonyas in my opinion only delays your death.

84 Comments

Darkslayer85Aug 17, 201616 votes

So Ahri these Annie champions are Fizz just Katarina allowed Leblanc to Lux one Velkoz shot Viktor us? I Veigar guess Vladimir that's Zyra fine.

YoungFarmerAug 17, 201628 votes

{quoted}

So these champions are just allowed to one shot us? I guess that's fine.

Why does it need a massive shield, plus life steal

Darkslayer85Aug 17, 20162 votes

The shield isn't a problem VS most mages.

YoungFarmerAug 17, 20167 votes

{quoted}

The shield isn't a problem VS most mages.

Its not really the shield, the problem is they get a ton of magic resist for an early game item, a nice amount of armour pen, decent damage. Making them really really hard to kill in lane.

Umbra IoniaAug 17, 20163 votes

And mages have abyssal vs mages whats the problem? Maw is strong for the dmg and arpen. Is a defensive item why should give so many damage stats?

Lady HammerlockAug 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

And mages have abyssal vs mages whats the problem? Maw is strong for the dmg and arpen. Is a defensive item why should give so many damage stats?

i just wish the lifesteal and spell vamp would be a lot less earlier into the game,apart from that the item is in an ok state

XonraAug 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Senpai Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:13:14.247+0000)

Its not really the shield, the problem is they get a ton of magic resist for an early game item, a nice amount of armour pen, decent damage. Making them really really hard to kill in lane.

The shield is a pretty big part of it. Nothing like going in with say, Rumble (I play a lot of rumble top" just to see someone with Maw. I go in on them, ult, and then when anyone else (including them) would have EASILY died, they instead just go...oops, shield pop, guess you aren't killing me after all, and swag walk away like Heimer.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 18, 20161 votes

And mages get ton of armor, AP for an less expensive item and one of the most powerful or the most powerful active in the game. Maw is fine. Only thing it might need is more AD and pen removed or lifesteal removed.

KnoyleAug 18, 20161 votes

And mages get ton of armor

Oh lawd lookit that 45 bonus armor so op.

the most powerful active in the game.

That is arguably true but situationally false. It has to be the right moment or position to be anywhere useful.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 19, 20161 votes

45 armor for such a cheap item is huge, yes. It is not arguably. It's a fact and nothing situational. Zhonyas active is the most powerful active in the game. End of story. No need to discuss it.

KnoyleAug 19, 20162 votes

Sounds like you just don't want someone pointing out how your opinion is flawed.

JbelsAug 17, 201614 votes

[{quoted}](name=Senpai Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:04:01.187+0000)

Why does it need a massive shield, plus life steal

Because literally every mage in the game would be impossible to deal with if the shield wasn't there. Fuck, Vel'koz can ignore it with his ult either way

IceKingChernobogAug 17, 201616 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:13:18.539+0000)

Because literally every mage in the game would be impossible to deal with if the shield wasn't there. Fuck, Vel'koz can ignore it with his ult either way

I would be fine with the shield. The life steal and Ar pen in unnecessary.

The Yetii RiderAug 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I would be fine with the shield. The life steal and Ar pen in unnecessary.

Armor penetration is an assassin stat. If it wasn't there, assassins wouldn't build it, just like how most tanks won't build Thornmail or Wit's End because they don't give Health.

Assassins are melee. They deserve better items.

The Taco KatAug 17, 20166 votes

Honestly, if the armor pen was removed or the shield didn't scale with bonus MR (base shield gets increased HP though?) and it gained 10 AD, I'd be perfectly fine with the item.

SinlaireAug 18, 20163 votes

but then it would just be a worse item 3139 ....

The Taco KatAug 19, 20161 votes

Have you noticed that AD champions get more defensive options that go well with their kits entirely than AP champions?

Hell, you get 40 MR, 55 AD, 10 Armor Pen, Situational Life Steal and Spell Vamp (10% of each), and a shield that scales with 300+100% bonus MR, on top of the fact that it has a good build path from one item. You toss on grabbing Scimitar and you get a total of 75 MR, 120 AD, 10 Armor Pen, 10%/20% Life Steal, 10% Spell Vamp, a shield that has a total of 375 HP with these two items alone that also takes reduced damage of your MR, effectively making any item you buy with MR more efficient, cleanse, and even a movement speed boost for a second.

Mercurial admittedly does have a poor build path, but you still get the cleanse active for 1300 gold and 30 MR.

The average AP Mage gets 400 HP, 170 AP, 45 Armor, 10% CDR, and a slow passive along with an active that throws you out of a fight for 2.5 seconds in exchange for a delayed death, unless your team manages to kill most of the enemies on your face while it is a fight missing one person entirely. On top of that, the build path for Rylai's is terrible, and Zhonya's isn't much of an improvement.

Also, if it isn't well-known to you yet, most items for AP champions don't have penetration on every core item. You get a Void Staff, Sorc. Shoes, and sometimes an Abyssal, which is overruled by the 10/20 flat penetration that was added onto items that already countered the AP mid laners already.

Pierce The VealAug 19, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Taco Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2016-08-19T00:00:30.293+0000)

Have you noticed that AD champions get more defensive options that go well with their kits entirely than AP champions?

Hell, you get 40 MR, 55 AD, 10 Armor Pen, Situational Life Steal and Spell Vamp (10% of each), and a shield that scales with 300+100% bonus MR, on top of the fact that it has a good build path from one item. You toss on grabbing Scimitar and you get a total of 75 MR, 120 AD, 10 Armor Pen, 10%/20% Life Steal, 10% Spell Vamp, a shield that has a total of 375 HP with these two items alone that also takes reduced damage of your MR, effectively making any item you buy with MR more efficient, cleanse, and even a movement speed boost for a second.

Mercurial admittedly does have a poor build path, but you still get the cleanse active for 1300 gold and 30 MR.

The average AP Mage gets 400 HP, 170 AP, 45 Armor, 10% CDR, and a slow passive along with an active that throws you out of a fight for 2.5 seconds in exchange for a delayed death, unless your team manages to kill most of the enemies on your face while it is a fight missing one person entirely. On top of that, the build path for Rylai's is terrible, and Zhonya's isn't much of an improvement.

Also, if it isn't well-known to you yet, most items for AP champions don't have penetration on every core item. You get a Void Staff, Sorc. Shoes, and sometimes an Abyssal, which is overruled by the 10/20 flat penetration that was added onto items that already countered the AP mid laners already.

I love how you slap together an AD build with only defensive items, but make an average ap build instead of slapping on all defensive items.

You know, we'd like to have 4 or so AD/health options too.

We'd like an AD/armor item too.

Meanwhile you have an MR/AP/CDR/magic reduction item and no one blinks an eye. I play both AP and AD assassins, and I have to say that AP assassins definitely have better build options.

The Taco KatAug 19, 20161 votes

In the case where you are facing an enemy AD champion, it would only make sense to build those two items because the magic resist from Abyssal certainly won't help us. I never said AD champions have an Armor+AD item (though that's mostly cause bruisers would abuse it), but in the case of AP vs AD, the AD defensive options are much greater. AP champions don't get any real tankiness from an item like Maw does. They get a 120 second CD invuln that causes their team to lose their DPS for 2.5 seconds.

Also, HOW is that a "defensive build for AD but not AP?" Are Maw and Mercurial no longer damage and tanky hybrid items? Do you think AP champions can just decide "yeah I'll buy a Thornmail first item or a Randuin's cause those are my defensive items?" Those are the top two defensive items for AP carries. Sure, we can tag along some other items like Liandry's which is only gold-effective on some champions, Abyssal which doesn't help against the enemy AD champions, the new hextech items which just give a little bit of health (300 HP - the equivalent of two ruby crystals), Seraph's Embrace which doesn't work on non-spammy champions (it also costs mana to use the shield unlike Maw), RoA which is used for naturally tanky mid lanes anyways, like Swain, Dark Seal and Doran's Ring if you want to be technical, Zeke's Harbinger (which isn't worth buying because there are tons of stats with such tiny numbers that it feels like Tri-Force had a kid), and Banner of Command (which isn't effective against AD.)

Now you could respond with the argument of "well that's a shit ton of health there, so just buy that! AD assassins are countered by a ton of HP." This was correct, up until Lord Dom's became an item, effectively making you deal more damage to us because we decided building some defensive stats would make us die less quickly. This item also basically halves our bonus armor, on top of the 40+ flat penetration you get from the rest of your items alone. This isn't including the ~14 you can get from runes and masteries. That means if we have the awkward defensive combination that are Zeke's and Zhonya's together, you reduce that bonus armor down to 21, not even including the Last Whisper AR Pen. Your items cause everything we choose to buy be extremely ineffective. Your Maw cancels our burst. Your Mercurial cancels our CC. Your Last Whisper items cancel our healing or make our health items less effective. Your Maw also grants flat penetration, allowing you to deal more damage with your defensive item. Trust me, I'd rather have 10 Flat MPen on Zhonya's than 10% CDR. We get a purple book that gives us some mana sustain and reduce your healing once we get you to a certain amount of HP. Your Executioner's will instantly reduce our healing if you tickle us with a feather.

By the way, you do have the options of Sterak's and Dead Man's for tanky damage alternatives.

If you want our AP with HP items to be translated over to AD with HP items, do me a favor and look at this list real quick:

Frozen Mallet
Black Cleaver
Sterak's
Titanic
Dead Man's
Trinity Force

Pierce The VealAug 19, 20161 votes

Too long didn't read.

The Taco KatAug 19, 20161 votes

TL;DR - That is a defensive build for AP. That's just what we are given for our "best tanky items." Those last 6 items are all Health+AD items/Health+AA Enhancer items. Lord Dom's ruins all AP tanky items because most of them are HP+AP instead of Armor+AP.

Pierce The VealAug 20, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Taco Kat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=0000000000010001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-19T23:25:08.700+0000)

TL;DR - That is a defensive build for AP. That's just what we are given for our "best tanky items." Those last 6 items are all Health+AD items/Health+AA Enhancer items. Lord Dom's ruins all AP tanky items because most of them are HP+AP instead of Armor+AP.

But AP champions are perfectly capable of building all pf the defensive items available to them? Sure, they won't be optimal, but that sure didn't stop you from stating Sterak's, dead man's, and triforce, all three of which are rarely used by actual AD champions and basically only really used by juggernauts that either need to move fast, have a lot of base ad, or have low cooldowns. Titanic hydra is borderline, because it does have like 50 AD, but it's horribly cost inefficient on almost anyone who'd be building it without wanting its passive or active or stacking HP.

And then there's frozen mallet, a theoretically wonderful item that's never built except on like shyvana and udyr occasionally, because it's so expensive yet only really provides a slow as a bonus for its cost. I really wanted to like this item a long time ago, yet it seems like it is almost always outclassed by other items.

As for black cleaver... Let me just talk about triforce then I'll come back to this piece of shit.

Triforce sure gives hp and AD, but only a little of both. Nobody's really building this as a defensive item, but nobody's also building this to because of their awesome AD scalings. The reason this is built is because of its passive and the movement speed boost. Sheen proc gives a lot of damage to people who would otherwise deal no damage (steraks helps with that). This is not being built by AD casters or most ADCs as it is simply not cost effective on them. This is built by tanks and bruisers to deal tons of damage without building any other real damage items.

Back to black cleaver. This is probably the only actually good AD/HP item that is built across the entire AD champion pool. However, it's actually not the best on AD assassins like it was intended. It's passive requires you to stick around and attack many times before getting to continue dealing your max damage potential, which means exhibit A bruisers love it and exhibit B so do ADCs. The reason you'll see an AD assassin build it is because of the CDR, AD, chunk of hp, and movement speed. It's just too hard to get max cdr as an AD champion without building triforce, essence reaver, and black cleaver, and pretty much only BC fits AD assassins. Overall, howevet, I would agree with you if you said that juggernauts had too many options tanky damage.

Back to Maw and Mercurial. The deal here is these two items are more often than not build because (A) for the former: you're leblanc, syndra, brand, or otherwise unsurvivable because you deal so many fuckloads of damage (B) the latter: the enemy team has tons of lockdown.

Maw doesn't help us fight anything except burst mages. It does literally what zhonya's does, with similar efficacy and cooldown. It might be easier to get to, but that's only because you can also use a zhonya's to escape magic and true damage. Zhonya's could be made to be better against AD, if it wasn't already so good against everyone else. And don't get me started on losing dps because of zhonya's, because mages more often than not do not have to spam something within 2.5 seconds. Sure it might delay the inevitable death, but it also might cause their team to stick around long enough for your team to save you or clean up. You also get to pick when to zhonya's. You can use it to dodge cc, or even use it at 100% hp. Unless each application of zhonya's is split up into multiple items, you really shouldn't be whining that it's the only good defensive item you have, becuase it's a whole lot better than any defensive item we have.

There's no armor AD item, but there are a couple armor AP items (zeke's is support only for the most part, I agree).

TL;DR: every HP AD item except black cleaver is basically only built on juggernauts, not true AD champions. They are not viable items on damage dealers for defense.

Maw isn't great except when the enemy mage is extremely bursty, and even then only gives a small chance of fighting back.

Mercurial basically just a better cleanse

Mages actually have armor AP items, whereas AD champions don't have armor AD items. Plus Zhonya's far outclasses any other defensive item in its utility, thus there can't be more defensive AP items.

The Taco KatAug 22, 20161 votes

I'd like to point out I didn't say those AD + HP items were all great choices, I said they are all there. The champions I play don't do well with RoA, Liandry's, Hextech GLP, or Hextech Protobelt, which are some of the main tanky AP items, leaving them extremely vulnerable against AD assassins. Even then, they don't give much HP from aside from RoA, and GLP isn't even used all that often, like Liandry's. Rylai's is the only HP defensive item I'd take on Katarina (my main) except in that extremely rare case that I can switch out boots for Liandry's late game.

Maw just has a special [hated] place in my heart that is partly biased due to playing Katarina. I still dislike the item when I am playing other APCs, but it isn't nearly as annoying to face outside of playing her.

Also, I think I said an AD + Armor item would be appropriate if Riot could figure out a way to make it be used specifically for AD laners, not bruisers.

And yes, Zhonya's is a good item, but I wish I would at least get +5 Armor when upgrading it from Armguard.

Anyways, the mini-necro on this thread has gone a little too long, so in all honesty, we should wrap this up soon.

Wind WhistlerAug 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=NMF Jbels,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:13:18.539+0000)

Because literally every mage in the game would be impossible to deal with if the shield wasn't there. Fuck, Vel'koz can ignore it with his ult either way

So can Cho'Gath.

Hiroshima HamstrAug 18, 20161 votes

it doesnt have lifesteal, not sure if you havent been reading notes but maw got nerfed, it doesnt have as much magic resist or AD on it anymore, I think it's in a good place, if not a shade weak all things considered. If you're struggling to the point you have to make a thread over one item, build magic pen earlier and or have some in your runes. Void staff, all ya need

YoungFarmerAug 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

it doesnt have lifesteal, not sure if you havent been reading notes but maw got nerfed, it doesnt have as much magic resist or AD on it anymore, I think it's in a good place, if not a shade weak all things considered. If you're struggling to the point you have to make a thread over one item, build magic pen earlier and or have some in your runes. Void staff, all ya need

Upon taking magic damage that would reduce maximum health below 30%, grants LIFELINE and LIFEGRIP (90 second cooldown). UNIQUE – LIFELINE: Grants a shield that absorbs 300 (+ 100% bonus magic resistance) magic damage for 5 seconds. UNIQUE – LIFEGRIP: Grants +10% spell vamp and +10% life steal until out-of-combat.

yes it does.

Hiroshima HamstrAug 28, 20161 votes

lol, thats so trivial and only when near death I personally would consider that nearly negligible.

Wind WhistlerAug 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Senpai Adam,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ntc8reMT,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-08-17T17:04:01.187+0000)

Why does it need a massive shield, plus life steal

It's not just lifesteal. It's also spell vamp.

PiVoRxAug 19, 20161 votes

Massive shield to survive massive burst, life steal to still have a chance to fight with pity ammount of hp left if you actually survive the burst.

Umbra IoniaAug 17, 20162 votes

Veigar and Vel don´t care about maw XD.

ThePartyLeaderAug 17, 201614 votes

Dear riot. This item allows people to farm while laning against me. Please nerf.

Thanks

AMYS GRAVEAug 17, 201613 votes

Its more like the item allows them to kill mages while also making sure they can't be killed by them. Buying maw isn't a choice between offense and defense, they buy the one item and they get easier last hitting, more AD for more spell damage, armor pen to make sure they take turrets and champions down faster, MR to reduce DPS, a shield to mitigate burst combos, as well as lifesteal and spellvamp to heal up after being agressed on. The one purchase negates a mages ability to agress on them while enabling them to be agressive. Chose one, because getting both in one item forces a non-interactive lane where the mage can no longer step up to farm, but the assassin can.

CalabokAug 17, 20167 votes

There is no one shotting with Brand. He combos.

Irelia BotAug 18, 20166 votes

Hexdrinker is the only reason why I don't get pissed off about LeBlanc or Syndra when playing an AD mid.

MunchCrunchLunchAug 17, 20165 votes

you can't really farm in a lane without getting maw against any ap mid since they blow you up easily. with long range they have advantage. you have more kill pressure after maw on them but mages are better in team fights than zed or ad assassins. if you don't buy it they just poke you down. its unplayable. here is the mentality of an ap mid vs an ad. the ap mage. always. always pokes. the assassin. even if the assassin can 100-0 the mage. it always. happens. every single game i play as zed or talon. they all poke you down. it seems logical to do until you get to level 6 with a hexdrinker and all in them and they die. they come back do it again and they die. at that point your too ahead on levels and cs.

know your place and play passively . don't poke the bear with a stick. its annoying. the bear will eat your face off onces hes fed enough.

VekknaAug 17, 201610 votes

You can't farm against a mage as Zed? Have you tried spamming Q?

MunchCrunchLunchAug 17, 20161 votes

a lot of them can poke you down under aturret. especially with talon.

LankPantsAug 18, 20163 votes

And a lot of assassins can oneshot mages under a turret before bullshitting their way back to safety. I know which I prefer.

CeexSettAug 18, 20161 votes

Don't compare Talon to Zed. Talon can't do shit against mages in general unless they have no CC and no mobility.

Zed just uses Q to waveclear, poke and all-in, all in the same spell.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 19, 20162 votes

Except he doesn'T. Can we just make an agreement to never talk about Zed on the boards? The bullshit all of you spout about Zed is unbearable, seriously. I can't read it anymore it just saddens me and hurts my eyes. Especially now after Zeds laning phase got gutted.

CeexSettAug 19, 20161 votes

I mean, don't want to read it, don't. Simple as that.

You can also comment in a destructice criticism way, but that doesn't mean anyone wil care.

NineTailedMysticAug 17, 20165 votes

Just kill its Armor pen. It really doesn't 10 flat pen on top of making them unburstable.

Handin Out NapsAug 18, 20162 votes

Confused how Zhonyas only delays your death when you can use to dodge huge amounts of damage with good timing. Maybe you just aren't using your Zhonyas right. Zhonyas takes away a whole lot of kill potential too.

KetiAug 18, 20162 votes

sure go ahead and nerf hexdrinker, as long as you're prepared to blanket nerf every AP burst champion.

PiVoRxAug 18, 20162 votes

Laning against Annie or Leblanc without hexdrinker/maw, you serious?

Its impossible to get anywhere around those 2 when they hit 6 and you did not build mr 1st.

DurfainAug 18, 20162 votes

Not to mention the shield of Hexdrinker self synergizes with itself giving it even more power. Meanwhile mages get a generic stat stick item 3191 that in a giant fuck you is at only 2/3 of its power until you've farmed up 30!! minions giving the enemy Zed plenty of time to capitalize.

TargonAug 18, 20162 votes

I think that item 3156 and item 3157 are somewhat close in strength, but item 3155 feels superior to item 3191 . Hexdrinker can save an AD champ from AP burst earlier but Seeker's armguard doesn't have as strong of an advantage in saving an AP champ against AD burst.

DIRUAug 18, 20161 votes

it has to be that good because AP burst mages will just oneshot anyone without the item, and have utility/aoe for teamfights with that same oneshot Ahri Leblanc Fizz Veigar (tho he gets so much AP it doesn't matter) Annie Anivia Katarina (do you really want her to reset on your adc?) Syndra Lux Zyra Viktor and a few more. note how most of their oneshots are POINT AND CLICK meaning you can't dodge them, only outstat them. that's where maw comes into play.