Imagine you taking the role in deciding what champions deserve and get approved of, it's your choice, make a decision below
In other words, they are both literally unviable and unplayable no matter what
Blu 113 votesGutted, no hesitation
theChibiTina10 votesI don't want them gutted, but if that or keeping them the same are my only options then gut them straight into the ground. I like playing Vayne once in a while, but I don't want them to be kept where their at because they are incredibly toxic to the game.
Heckin Support4 votesIt's funny how when given a problem like this towards vayne and riven they refuse to nerf, but when it came to other champions like Aatrox it was "nerf now, we know he will suck, we will watch him and give him buffs as needed." I'd much rather Riot have this outlook on all champions.
If they're a problem and you know nerfing them will make them bad, just do it. Then keep an eye on them and buff as needed, where they need it.
theChibiTina1 votesI know. It's so frustrating. I hate how they will only do that for some and then others will be left at the top for ages before they finally see the nerfs they needed what feels like forever ago.
Ragnaveil9 votesGutted, no questions asked. They had their time in the limelight avoiding nerfs. Now its their turn to feel like trash. This whole skill argument is the whole reason why Riven hasn't been nerfed. Gotta keep the mains happy somehow.
iwanttobebronze53 votesGutted, no questions asked. They had their time in the limelight avoiding nerfs. Now its their turn to feel like trash. This whole skill argument is the whole reason why Riven hasn't been nerfed. Gotta keep the mains happy somehow.
It seems Riven is already trash in your hands. I mean, you managed to 0/4 with a theoretically superOP Riven... I wonder what result would it be with a gutted Riven. 0/40? I guess Urgot being OP for years does not bother you for some "strange" reason. LOL
Ragnaveil5 votesI dont play her, so no shit im going to do bad on her. And Urgot has counters that solo can use. Riven on the other hand really doesnt have any as it stands (only ones that a general cheese counters to any melee, which is hardly an argument)
iwanttobebronze52 votesI dont play her, so no shit im going to do bad on her. And Urgot has counters that solo can use. Riven on the other hand really doesnt have any as it stands (only ones that a general cheese counters to any melee, which is hardly an argument)
Okay, so let's ignore 
for now.
and 
cannot lose lane vs Riven unless the player is superbad or ganked a lot. So "doesnt have any counter" does not stand at all. Not to mention any of these 
can go toe to toe with her and its not even the whole list. Many other champions have a good chance if played properly e.g. 
and so forth.
ZXImmortal2 votesOk but most melee tops lose to range champs. Riven loses less cuz of her e spam.she can easily beat teemo and vayne top. Alot of the matchups depend on rivens skill. A good riven beats darius jax panth morde garen really easily.
iwanttobebronze52 votesAdrian is considered one of the best Riven mains yet he loses these matchups a lot. He and TF Blade - who usually plays Jax and Irelia into Riven - always play a 50-50 game (lately I saw TF to win more). Last time I watched Boxbox stream he played vs Darius and got stomped. Next game he stomped Darius. These are just random examples ofc, however, no high elo Riven main would call these matchups "really easy", especially Teemo and Vayne.
A good riven beats darius jax panth morde garen really easily.
I'd rather say: A good Riven has a good chance to beat Jax, Darius.... It always depends on the players. If a good Riven facing a bad Jax ofc it will be a stomp. However, it is not because Riven vs Jax, it is because good player vs bad player. With equally skilled players these matchups are not one-sided at all.
Riven is op now because of her synergy with Conq, DD an SoS, not because she got some superbuff a few patches ago. People just did not care to learn the matchup vs Riven when she was an underdog. She had the same abilities, same mechanics so everyone had the chance to learn her range, her cooldowns, etc. However, Darius mains for example did not care about that at all, they just enjoyed the fact they could brainlessly run it down and win. Now they cannot run it down so they started to cry for Riven nerfs. I have not met a complainer yet (no joke) who lost to Riven because "she is so op". Last time a Master tier Garen main started a thread here "nerf riven she so op blablabla"... he happened to play vs Adrian and lost the game. I watched the replay on Adrian's stream. Mr. Master Garen forgot to mention that he played like a boosted monkey, made more mistakes than I could count, yet was not solo killed a single time. It is always easier to blame the enemy champion than learn from our mistakes. My absolute favorit though when people rant about how super easy to play Riven, meanwhile A, they literally never played Riven B, played Riven and got humiliated badly. I have not seen a single one of them who actually played Riven in his elo and won his matchup like he should have with an op champion. I barely see anyone who actually played her then said she is easy. I do not know what is worse though. I mean how reliable a complainer statement is "Riven is braindead easy" when his 8 games with Riven were 4/16; 1/10, 0/6, etc. I support the freedom of speech but these people are just clueless clowns.
kingDeDeDarius3 votesGreat, no one gives af about your one sided anecdotal evidence when STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT winrates AND banrates AND play rates PROVE riven to be broken. Stop even trying to defend that stupid arrogant styled champ. It's pathetic
iwanttobebronze52 votesGreat, no one gives af about your one sided anecdotal evidence when STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT winrates AND banrates AND play rates PROVE riven to be broken. Stop even trying to defend that stupid arrogant styled champ. It's pathetic
I wondered how can someone be so butthurt for no reason. Then I understood. "Right between the eyes" Mr. Darius main? [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
ZXImmortal1 votesDude go op.gg and search jax counter the fact that they are going even when tf blade is a way better player than adrian says alot. You cant say darius beats riven because of one game also. U literally hard win unless u let darius hook riven 3rd q and waste e and w have no cds and walk up. Riven is broken because of runes and items but most other champs are weak with these same runes and items so the only solution is to nerf riven. Riven takes skill but skill doesnt mean they should be left overpowered
kingDeDeDarius2 votesShe beats almost all of those champs past a certain skill level, regardless of their actual skill. The agency to win or lose is almost entirely in her hands. It's on her to screw up. If they play perfectly and she plays perfectly, she will win 90% of the timw
Yets424011 votesAlso, LMFAO at Urgot "OP for years."
His rework was in the end of season 7, start of season 8. He's only existed for a year, and it wasn't until two two patches ago, 9.6 that he was changed into his current state, and then subsequently nerfed the following patch quite hard, as he lost around 50% of his playrate, 6% of his winrate, and has since fallen to a sub 49% winrate.
Worth noting that before he became big in pro play due to every other top laner getting nerfed to oblivion, and him being picked to counter snowball heavy lanes by simply not dying to their early cheese, he was also at a 48% winrate, and was considered a hard to use, barely played (1-1.5% pickrate) and mediocre champion. Even when he saw competitive use, he still had pretty normal stats for a top laner, and wasn't even the best until patch 9.6 for all of one single patch, before getting nerfed again after he was previously gutted so that they could launch that mini-rework. Riven has been the #1 champion in top lane, or the #2 champion since at least patch 8.24, from what I can see, or just slightly longer than the entire season so far, with no nerfs or changes announced nor in sight.
iwanttobebronze51 votesAlso, LMFAO at Urgot "OP for years."
His rework was in the end of season 7, start of season 8. He's only existed for a year, and it wasn't until two two patches ago, 9.6 that he was changed into his current state, and then subsequently nerfed the following patch quite hard, as he lost around 50% of his playrate, 6% of his winrate, and has since fallen to a sub 49% winrate.
Worth noting that before he became big in pro play due to every other top laner getting nerfed to oblivion, and him being picked to counter snowball heavy lanes by simply not dying to their early cheese, he was also at a 48% winrate, and was considered a hard to use, barely played (1-1.5% pickrate) and mediocre champion. Even when he saw competitive use, he still had pretty normal stats for a top laner, and wasn't even the best until patch 9.6 for all of one single patch, before getting nerfed again after he was previously gutted so that they could launch that mini-rework. Riven has been the #1 champion in top lane, or the #2 champion since at least patch 8.24, from what I can see, or just slightly longer than the entire season so far, with no nerfs or changes announced nor in sight.
I guess you just slept through season 8 when Urgot was a pick or ban champion in every game in every elo (pro games too)...
kingDeDeDarius3 votesThe dude's been smoking the reefer. I ROFL'd real hard when I saw him write "urgot op for years"
Hammermancer1 votesThe dude's been smoking the reefer. I ROFL'd real hard when I saw him write "urgot op for years"
I still maintain that oldgot was OP after lethality items got tweaked but noone believed me
kingDeDeDarius3 votesUrgot OP for years? You are delusional. He was straight dog crap for many more years than he's been strong. Riven, on the other hand, had never truly been weak (only relatively worse in some metas and in less experienced hands) and vayne seems to be viable or broken at least 6-9 months most years
ModWulf Helhammer6 votesI don't main either of them (mildly play Vayne).
I don't want either gutted. I don't want any champions gutted. It's not healthy for the game.
Sir Saltarin5 votesNah, gutting champs as 
is the healthiest thing that can happen to this game.
ZXImmortal2 votesI mean not really id rather fight azir ryze or aatrox then riven vayne and irelia
Sir Saltarin2 votesOh you dont, you rather face bad Azir Ayaytrox Tahms or Ryze
ZXImmortal1 votesI dont like tahm but aatrox i find him to be really easy because of low base health and he cant really stop you from just walking up and killing him.
Daddy Ants6 votesNeither are getting gutted.
So stop threads like this.
Tahminatrix 7 votesOp was portraying a** fictional** situation for people to put themselves in and asked what would they do in that situation.
Stop commenting before you read the OP?
DuskDaUmbreon6 votesAh, yes, the only reason you can be against gutting a champion is if you main them.
Definitely not a biased poll at all.
Mordepool6 votesDoesn't have to be a gutting. But something Has to be Done.
ChaosReyn5 votesAll I'm gonna say is that if Morello can find a way to nerf Irelia in every patch from her release to like mid s3, Riven and Vayne can stand to lose a little damage.
Personally, I don't even wanna see Riot hit their damage, I wanna see them hit Rivenroth's cooldowns so that she can't spam constantly until late game when she's supposed to, and hit Vayne's base AS and Q cooldown so she has to build more CDR and AS to reach that level of consistent arrow hailing she currently hits way too early.
EbonyBladeJ884 votesI wouldn't say GUTTED. More like... "Brought in Line". Now, as for the why? There are already ten billion (or what it feels like ten billion) explanations as for why the two are out of line. I would hope we've all seen and heard them enough (From both Top-laners like myself and others) that I wouldn't need to reiterate them here for the ten-billion-and-oneth time.
But, I know, we all have SELECTIVE memory, so I guess I'll say it again.
For Riven, (Based on MY Experience, this is just MY feelings) it's the fact that she is able to stack the updated form of Conqueror extremely quickly, if the Riven play knows what they're doing with the champion. Her Q, if I'm not mistaken, gives 3 stacks by itself or more if they weave AAs in between each Q use. If I'm wrong on that feel free to correct me.
In addition to that, the fact that she is healed for 10% of the pre-mitigation damage dealt allows her to circumvent her previous weakness of having no TRUE sustain (What I consider TRUE sustain is in-combat heals akin to what Juggernauts have) aside from her E shield, since her HP/5 is crap by itself.
Then, add in the NIGHTMARE of a design that is Spear of Shojin 
. Because Riot refuses to give up on that "Awakened Dragon" effect, she can basically render the CDs for her abilities (Already made low enough with the 40 to 45% CD reduction every Riven builds in their kit and runes) to be essentially non-existent. Weave enough AA's between attacks and abilities and she can, theoretically, stun-lock you permanently if she uses her Q's knockup CC and W stun correctly. I say theoretically because I would think that even the most professional Riven player would not be able to do that consistently; they're human like the rest of us after all.
I fully realize that Spear of Shojin is NOT an problematic item that is EXCLUSIVE to Riven, but it DOES add more problems to her on top of what she already had with the new Conqueror.
Now, on to Vayne.
IMPO (In my personal opinion) Vayne was doing her job well enough without the 50% reduced cool-down buff on her R she got back in the 9.1 patch. Then, the fact that 
allows her to bypass the 3-hit requirement for her Silver Bolts was basically like giving me a paper cut and pouring lemon juice on it!
She was already able to melt Tanks and Juggernauts with the True Damage. So you should build Armor since you can't build Health against her, right? Nope! Guinsoo's also gives Total Armor-Pen! (Yes I know, it is based upon level, but it nonetheless exists) On top of the Last Whisper item ( 
or 
, take your pick) she is sure to have built.
So, the two things that you are supposed to build to counter the things she offers, Physical Damage and True Damage, which are supposed to be counter-built via Armor and Health respectively, she renders BOTH of them moot! Her True Damage allows her to bypass high armor, and the Max HP% OF that True Damage allows her to bypass high health!
A Riven, for the most part, you CAN Itemize against, as Conqueror, once fully stacked, only converts 10% of her damage to true damage, AND it converts the damage before damage modifiers. This makes both damage increases and damage reductions be 10% less effective. She will deal the same amount of true damage with or without damage modifiers. So, while she WILL have that 10%, the remaining amount of 90%, the lion's share of the damage, will still be Physical, allowing Armor to still serve a purpose against her.
However, against Vayne, with all the things I listed above, that kind of logic doesn't work. Now you may say that what I say above only applies when using Conqueror, and that might be true. But Vayne doesn't need to take Conqueror. She already has true damage with her W. She's just fine with something like Press the Attack or some other keystone. But, both of the types of items/stats that you are supposed to build to counteract the things she brings to the table (Physical Damage and True Damage), she has something built into her kit that allows her to bypass them! That blasted Max HP% True Damage, that she is able to proc even faster with .
THIS is why she is a problem.
Daddy Ants2 votesShe was already able to melt Tanks and Juggernauts with the True Damage. So you should build Armor since you can't build Health against her, right? Nope! Guinsoo's also gives Total Armor-Pen! (Yes I know, it is based upon level, but it nonetheless exists) On top of the Last Whisper item (
Last Whisper items do not stack with Guinsoo's nor does Void Staff.
If you have Guinsoo's + a Last whisper item only the strongest effect activates which would be the 35% penetration from the last whisper.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesVery well said
8Belthazor84 votesYour poll is dumb asf. No one in their right mind want to make champions literally unplayable. Don't force your stupidity on others.
General Matty4 votesI think they deserve to at least receive some sort of hard nerf or change to their kit.
Infernape3 votesI wouldn't gut them or keep them as they are. I'd just straight up nerf their asses.
With Vayne, I'd make her W an on attack effect so it loses its interactions with Guinsoo's.
With Riven I'd either make her Q count as one stack for Conqueror full stop (as in the first Q will stack Conqueror but the rest don't), or I'd straight up reduce her damage slightly.
Ragnaveil2 votesUh, how about reverting the change that gave her a execute on Wind Slash? Its about the most unnecessary thing she needs if she's gonna have all that mobility and damage.
Infernape3 votesI'm pretty sure Wind Slash has always had an execute component. Its damage always increased based on the target's missing health.
What pushed Riven over the edge was Conqueror's rework and how easily she can stack it. It doesn't help that Conqueror's healing isn't reduced on AoE damage (which all of hers is) and that she can also build Spear to have spammable shielding and CC, which obviously helps with her survivability in fights (combined with Conqueror's healing).
Ragnaveil1 votesConqueror has nothing to do with her being strong. Her and Jax break the rune, but its not the rune's fault because we've already nerfed it several times over and they still persist through all those nerfs. Their kits are anomolies at this point, and should be disregarded from the general balance scale they have in place right now and be monitored to be at a 50% winrate high elo. Anything higher (this includes Vayne) immediately calls for a nerf. Also, im pretty sure Wind Slash's interaction got changed from base damage to scaling, but the wiki says nothing about it (which is odd, i remember the patch note mentioning it got changed to a execute). Either way the base needs to be lowered hands down (aka revert the base damage buff). That was made during the time Tanks were a bit overkill in durability, and now that it wont be a thing anymore, she doesnt need that buff anymore.
Cuz let me tell you one thing, the Darius buff on the PBE wont matter a damn bit if Riven and Jax remain the same.
kingDeDeDarius1 votesAlso give vayne w a 10 or 15 Mana cost so she needs to be resource conscious
General Esdeath 3 votesThe way they are, it's funny to watch boards cry about them both when they don't play either to learn how to counter them.
I'm more concerned in top lane with 
haaaaaaalp3 votesIf the decision is between keeping a champion underpowered or overpowered, it is always better to keep them underpowered. This applies to every champion, not just ones you don't like.
Tin Obliterates2 votesNo champion deserves to be gutted to the point where they're no longer playable, but I'd like to see them toned down a bit.
GodlyBane2 votesThis why a lot of people dont listen to boards. Hashinshin mught hate riven but provides non bias solutions to champions he finds unbalanced and you can downvote me all you wsnt but it will show. You have bias opinions for everything and whenever someone says "hey thats kinda too much, chill" you go insane and downvote somebody who is right. Its comical
NaughtyWord2 votesI really don't want Vayne "gutted" I just don't want her to have everything:
No other ADC has all of that. The closest would be Kai'Sa and even then, she doesn't have a hard CC.
Naalith1 votesFor real, these champions are the Kai'sa and Irelia of last season where Riot just let them run around ruining everything for the entire year until they finally did something and called their changes a success. Hell, Kai'sa didn't even get changed we had to wait until Stormrazor was changed, and calling Irelia a "success" after waiting like 9 months for something to be done is just dumb.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesKai'sa is still the same as last year. Absolutely broken s+ tier. Atleast for soloQ.
KoggyStyle1 votesnuetral, played vayne a bit..... dont do well with riven much.
Chariut Requiem1 votesI'm just done with riven and vayne. When I dont see them, I have to play against darius or urgot. There are 120+ champions that can be played so why tf do I have to play against the same 4 champions every ranked game.
ToxicSquiid1 votesLet's see, they just gutted Kench's DPS from early to late, removed his R until level 11, and made his main support utility worthless because he was "too good of an action-stopper" in high level play, while maintaining a 44% Winrate, at best. Oh, but they gave him some minor reverts to act like it's not a gutting. 10 movespeed, a Q slow, and a little extra HP regen from E.
Yeah, they can go. Gut them. The amount of counterplay, or more accurately, lack thereof, is too damn much. If one ability can remove a character like Tahm from every role he has, then I think these two are far overdue with their overtuned kits.
Warpes1 votesI want vayne 'nerfed', not gutted. And solely because I can't fucking stand the amount of dipshits who keep spamming her in ranked no matter what the matchup is, and hyperfeed.
I shit you not, it's been a running joke among my friends and duo partners that no matter what side we see a Vayne on.. in over 60 fucking games, ive seen TWO of them actually carry, and not feed/lose the shit out of their lanes so early and so bad there's no recovery, despite endless effort from either jg.
Once she's nerfed, maybe this will finally fucking end.
