Petition to replace Electrocute with Thunderlord's Decree

ExplodingFist66·Aug 2, 2018·401 votes·67,160 views

1 upvote = higher chance of riot looking at this post [slayer-pantheon-thumbs] do it for the sake of this game

242 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 3, 2018112 votes

I touched on it on another post, but we're doing some short term work to siphon out some damage from runes. One of the directions we're currently testing with Electrocute is decreasing both the damage and the cd (get the proc more frequently, but with reduced payout). We're not going quite to TL levels, but that's a rough model we're shooting for.

Just going to go ahead and drop the current list in here for you guys to discuss. This will also be on the PBE tomorrow.

Electrocute Damage :: 50-220 (+50%bAD)(+30%AP) >>> 30-180 (+40%bAD)(+25%AP) Cooldown :: 50-25 >>> 25-20

Cheap Shot Damage :: 15-40 >>> 8-40

Sudden Impact Lethality Bonus :: 10 >>> 7 Magic Penetration Bonus :: 8 >>> 6

Celerity Bonus Movement Speed converted to Attack Damage :: 9.6% >>> 6% Bonus Movement Speed converted to Ability Power :: 16% >>> 10%

Scorch Damage :: 20-60 >>> 10-30 Cooldown :: 20 >>> 10

Notably, there's some runes like Aery and Comet not included in this list which are cited pretty frequently, they likely also need more work in terms of gameplay that isn't just simply some number shifts (we're still talking about them though)

elo trashAug 3, 201824 votes

Just bring back the old rune system, it gave people something to work for. now once you get all the champions you literally have nothing to do with your BE but sit around and wait on the once in a lifetime BE shop to open up.

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 3, 2018117 votes

Realistically the old rune system didn't give people much to work for either, with the exception of completionists who actually derive joy from getting every piece of available content. For most veteran players they just had massive IP banks that they never spent because they had the needed armor/mr/cdr/ad/as/ap/scaling hp runes. Ideally we can find some other form of meaningful progression, but old runes really weren't it.

Spank the FoxAug 3, 20184 votes

Thanks for the response!

Witch of BabylonAug 3, 20187 votes

I'm glad you think that, I feel like old runes were honestly a chore.

elo trashAug 3, 201836 votes

Thanks for actually taking the time to reply, not many rioters will talk about this stuff sadly.

Seems otherwise from what I read, people seemed to enjoy the older rune system better than the newer one because it let you balance things out, you didnt have to go a full damage tree or a full defensive tree etc, you could go a hybrid build that allowed you to be defensive enough to make it past laning phase yet strong enough late game to win, or strong early and weak later.

I do believe that runes should be brought back in some form for defensive, attack, etc stats as well as having the masteries.

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 3, 201858 votes

I do believe that runes should be brought back in some form for defensive, attack, etc stats as well as having the masteries.

maybe more info on that soontm

elo trashAug 3, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c0000000000020000,timestamp=2018-08-03T02:34:10.973+0000)

maybe more info on that soontm

ooo now im excited [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Faceroll TacticsAug 3, 20184 votes

soontm

Expect it in season 12

InfernapeAug 3, 201819 votes

Why is there so much offence compared to defence? The only rune that gives armour or MR is Conditioning and that doesn't activate until 10 minutes after the game begins. The rest is just flat HP. Pretty much every other rune (apart from a few) is damage, damage and more damage.

VenomStrike31Aug 3, 20182 votes

Might be because it's easier to come up with ideas for unique offensive options because of all the ways you can be offensive.

TeCoolMageAug 3, 201812 votes

I've always believed runes reforged should've followed old rune's selection pick-whatever-you-want system rather than mastery's locked in tree system, and that all runes should be approximately as powerful as stopwatch, poro, and triumph (rather than a bunch of crappy runes, good runes, then godlike keystones). And no champion or class should ever be 100% tuned for a rune (only a specific playstyle or build to a specific champion should be reliant on certain runes. Otherwise it should be free for all).

At the very least remove 'required' runes like AHEM manaflowbandonliterallyeverymanamage COUGH. Seriously, Doran's and manaflow have for a very long time warped balance around mage mana.

I don't get trees at all, never did, and probably never will. In a game based around progression (lower choices are more powerful because you unlock them later), sure, but if you start out with all the runes, what's the point?! Why would you force champions to sacrifice so much of everything else to be good at what they do

Rework QuinnAug 3, 20182 votes

I really do hope so!

As a Vel'Koz player, the change to electrocute sounds nice, but I haven't been running it all season because in order to get it you have to sacrifice some really, really key options in the sorcery tree. That's been one of my biggest annoyances since Runes Reforged went live.

Personally I would hope for some of the flexibility to come back - i.e. before, I could choose between TLD and Deathfire Touch and both offered valuable mastery paths. Now I choose Comet 99% of the time because as much as I want Electrocute, taking it forces me to give up too much from sorcery to be worth it.

Automated RivenAug 3, 20187 votes

I agree with this. (I myself was a bit of a completionist myself) and had 500,000 ip worth of runes and still had 100k ip when the runes were changed.

However, there was a ton of value in the old system that could be transfered to the new system. At least in part.

Some examples here. Part of the reason that damage feels so high right now is that the early game armor and magic resist was not properly compesated when we recieved the new system. (in addition to keystones being like an extra spell or passive in a champions kit)

Utility options are not properly represented. As a riven player I am still very annoyed that we were aluded to a replacement for 10% cdr at level 1 and what we got was transcendence. (riven was very heavily balanced around her early game having that cooldown reduction)

Cookie cutter ad as ap and HP per level is not the same as the variety we had before from the runes. (bonuses you get from primary paths.)

Multiple suggestions have been made however my favorite was along the lines of removing those AD AP AS HP bonuses from the actual rune system (which is basically masteries)

And granting you 3 slots separate from them in which each of those slots would give 1 of the following.

AD AP AS HP HP Regen MS CDR

Because like it or not, the new system removed far more variety then it actually added.

Also, for progression. Achievements would be nice. Higher mastery levels. Free basic unique skins on high mastery levels. (or unlockable with a fair bit of BE, something like a golden recolor, super cheap to make but very exclusive so it feels good to have) special Flair's for high levels. Like 250/500/750/1000 unlocking special emotes and border banners saying you have played alot. And so on. All of these would feel very good to people who play the game a ton and want to feel as though they are progressing.

Also champion specific emotes at the 1 million mastery point mark.

EndlessSorcererAug 3, 201812 votes

The only change I wanted to the system was (1) for runes to be free and (2) masteries to be removed.

I liked having the ability to customize my base stats for my role, match-up and playstyle. However, I found the keystone masteries to be an excessive amount of power considering the vast majority were triggered by normal play.

The current rune/mastery system seems to take focus away from the champion's kits and you end up playing around the cooldowns of their runes.

Even if it wasn't optimal, it was nice to be able to cover stats you couldn't (or didn't want to) itemize for with runes.

Movement Speed Quints and CDR Quints/Glyphs (Flat and Scaling) were both very useful options that I greatly miss.
Mana regeneration seals were useful when you had to farm from a distance with abilities or prioritize waveclearing mid-lane
Health regeneration runes were great when you needed to survive against difficult match-ups and opponents who could zone you from the minion wave
Stacking Flat Armor or MR against high-burst lane-bullies like Leblanc and Renekton could be enough to let you survive the laning phase and outscale them

I believe losing the ability to customize stats (especially defensive stats) for specific match-ups and playstyles is one of the contributing factors to the game's current state.

KazekibaAug 3, 20183 votes

I am happy with Transcendence, although game states make it come on too late and there are notable champions who need that 10% CDR at very low levels. Maybe it can give 1% Cdr/level up to 10, or 5% CDR at level 6 and then 10% at level 10. Lower ratios to compensate if you need, since buying something like Luden's Echo while already at the CDR cap, or hitting 40% CDR and then picking up Blue buff, is a MASSIVE gain in AP to say nothing of Transendence's dominance in URF ... Got 140 AP from it once.

DarkblimpAug 3, 20184 votes

The current rune/mastery system seems to take focus away from the champion's kits and you end up playing around the cooldowns of their runes.

This is actually a big aspect of the single biggest problem I've had with runes/masteries ever since the introduction of keystones into the game.

I get that its a cool idea to be able to have some powerful tool outside of your champion's innate abilities/summoner spells (predator is a good example of this) but it ends up creating weird gaps where champions who can't utilize the tools provided suffer more. A fair example is outside of crit changes, many adcs like Jinx/Sivir don't have great keystone options outside of Fleet Footwork, which got gutted--so you end up using the gutted Fleet or use Lethal Tempo which is "meh".

The other point is that some champions utilize a particular keystone well but it alters their play patterns. As an example, back when Lulu mid was still more of a thing, the best keystone option for her was thunderlords--however, in order to proc it, you'd need to E + AA + Q the enemy champ, which took away a big part of the decision making in her E--do you use it to shield yourself, or burst more? The option became clear--you use it for damage, because you needed to in order to quickly proc tlord.

I get that back in the day, old masteries were somewhat boring (%increase damage, flat damage, flat hp, flat armor), but they gave you options for adjustment based on what you needed out of that game (flat stats vs scaling, utility vs. damage, defensive stats vs. utility/damage) and didn't heavily impact the way you actually have to play your champion.

MaverickXVIIAug 3, 20182 votes

but you gotta think though. If the complain was the price or availability, then why not just make it cheaper?

Smithy2QAug 3, 20182 votes

This is missing the point slightly. True, the old runes were just an IP sink ... but if they were all free, you would have full access to the entire catalog. If you could design your rune page before every game, you could customize it for lane.

It's true most people only had one or two rune pages they always used, but that's because the runes were locked. If people had the option to customize (against Zed, better go extra armour; easier lane, lets go more scaling, etc), the old system offered far more meaningful choices.

Also, I'm sure there are many people that rarely if ever change their current rune set-up (always using the same runes for adc bot, say), so this criticism is not unique to the old system.

Z3SleeperAug 3, 20182 votes

That’s literally Thunderlords with more damage though (with a higher cooldown (5s) at level 18).

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 3, 201828 votes

I didn't say we were moving back to exact TL numbers, just that we were going in that direction :P

MakeOutHiIIXXXAug 3, 20188 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c00020000,timestamp=2018-08-03T02:37:02.715+0000)

I didn't say we were moving back to exact TL numbers, just that we were going in that direction :P

Bru, just rename the rune

SpideraxeAug 3, 20182 votes

I know these changes are to impact everyone but some will def be hurt more then others, will see any compensation changes

warpenguin555Aug 3, 20184 votes

Nectar your deserve a hug. I fucking love you man.

AhrisAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-08-03T02:13:20.336+0000)

I touched on it on another post, but we're doing some short term work to siphon out some damage from runes. One of the directions we're currently testing with Electrocute is decreasing both the damage and the cd (get the proc more frequently, but with reduced payout). We're not going quite to TL levels, but that's a rough model we're shooting for.

Just going to go ahead and drop the current list in here for you guys to discuss. This will also be on the PBE tomorrow.

Electrocute Damage :: 50-220 (+50%bAD)(+30%AP) >>> 30-180 (+40%bAD)(+25%AP) Cooldown :: 50-25 >>> 25-20

Cheap Shot Damage :: 15-40 >>> 8-40

Sudden Impact Lethality Bonus :: 10 >>> 7 Magic Penetration Bonus :: 8 >>> 6

Celerity Bonus Movement Speed converted to Attack Damage :: 9.6% >>> 6% Bonus Movement Speed converted to Ability Power :: 16% >>> 10%

Scorch Damage :: 20-60 >>> 10-30 Cooldown :: 20 >>> 10

Notably, there's some runes like Aery and Comet not included in this list which are cited pretty frequently, they likely also need more work in terms of gameplay that isn't just simply some number shifts (we're still talking about them though)

Do you have a reason for why the lategame cd is around the same as current? Since its ratios are also going down, shouldnt it also have a lower cd in general?

Also, will you address champs like Ahri in this? She already struggles to burst targets now, and this will make it even harder. So, does this mean she will be open for w and passive changes?

And, is celebrity getting a straight nerf? So, no compensation for it?

RiotRiot MapleNectarAug 3, 201817 votes

I'd argue a 20% lower cd is still pretty reasonable. Given that you'll be able to apply it much more frequently throughout the lane phase I don't think it also needs to be drastically reduced late game as well

Yandere YandereAug 3, 20182 votes

Hopefully there is some compensation in kits or in items, as these changes will hurt some champions pretty hard especially Assassins and (Burst) Mages. Maybe push the damage later into the game (via items or ability scalling) as it is their jobs to explode a target ASAP.

PB4UAMEAug 3, 201819 votes

They idea here, stay with me for a moment, is to nerf damage.

So, they nerfed damage.

Got it?

Compensation by adding more damage, undoes all that and defeats the purpose of all of this.

Damage must go down, and stay down.

Tectonic MarvelAug 3, 20183 votes

That is an incredibly ignorant statement to make. This hits 'only' Assassins, Mages and some Fighters, not touching Marksmen who ( guess what) are still the most picked in bot.

The Last PadawanAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tectonic Marvel,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c000800000000,timestamp=2018-08-03T08:55:53.133+0000)

That is an incredibly ignorant statement to make. This hits 'only' Assassins, Mages and some Fighters, not touching Marksmen who ( guess what) are still the most picked in bot.

That’s the case because the vast majority of ADCs have been balanced around being strong in (guess what!) BOT LANE... damm, that most suck the average assassin/mage/bruiser fighter with more than enough damage to obliterate any squishy champion has its damage cut down! I’m down for anything that addresses Zoe, Zed... just to name a few.

Oh, and don’t tell me celerity nerf doesn’t affect Jhin, MF and Lucian, cause in my book it DOES.

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

That’s the case because the vast majority of ADCs have been balanced around being strong in (guess what!) BOT LANE... damm, that most suck the average assassin/mage/bruiser fighter with more than enough damage to obliterate any squishy champion has its damage cut down! I’m down for anything that addresses Zoe, Zed... just to name a few.

Oh, and don’t tell me celerity nerf doesn’t affect Jhin, MF and Lucian, cause in my book it DOES.

Celerity nerf affects Vayne as well.

Vayne's passive feeds into Celerity and her ult triples the passive...

More indirect nerfs to a 47-48% Win rate champion

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20184 votes

Well, giving everybody back an amount of armor equal to the 9x armor runes and 9 mr18 runes people used before the runes rework might be a better option, considering that the game has been balanced around it for 7 years.

Daddy AntsAug 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kowe The Ewok,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c000800000001,timestamp=2018-08-03T10:35:59.696+0000)

Well, giving everybody back an amount of armor equal to the 9x armor runes and 9 mr18 runes people used before the runes rework might be a better option, considering that the game has been balanced around it for 7 years.

Everyone who took 9 armor seals did get it returned in 7.22.

No one got back the 12 MR we used to take in blues though.

Kowe The EwokAug 3, 20184 votes

Not quite. A lot of champions just got a small health increase instead of armor which scales far worse into mid/latgame. Particularly considering how arpen/mpen work.

JinkuzuAug 3, 20182 votes

Electrocute Damage :: 50-220 (+50%bAD)(+30%AP) >>> 30-180 (+40%bAD)(+25%AP) Cooldown :: 50-25 >>> 25-20

Cheap Shot Damage :: 15-40 >>> 8-40

Sudden Impact Lethality Bonus :: 10 >>> 7 Magic Penetration Bonus :: 8 >>> 6

Celerity Bonus Movement Speed converted to Attack Damage :: 9.6% >>> 6% Bonus Movement Speed converted to Ability Power :: 16% >>> 10%

Scorch Damage :: 20-60 >>> 10-30 Cooldown :: 20 >>> 10

How is lowering the damage but also lower the cds gona fix the damage being tohigh? This just makes it so we gotta use it more frequent but most likely turns into even more damage cause of it.

EllispJwUoAug 3, 20186 votes

Lowering the damage means TTK will go up since the rune will not offer as much upfront damage but rather require you to use multiple executions of the rune to net the same result it currently does. This doesn't increase more damage but rather shift it to sustained damage rather than upfront burst which has been a problem over the past months.

JinkuzuAug 3, 20183 votes

But reducing the CD so much means it will even more damage over time. Still resulting ain the game having to much damage. Leave the cds be and just lower damage accros the board.

FridgesArePpl2Aug 3, 20182 votes

because the problem isn't total damage throughout the course of the game, it's that time to kill is too low

C2GAug 3, 20183 votes

Will AP Assassins be getting compensation for these changes, since AD Assassins and Bruisers that do take electrocute are the real problem?

Overlord KaynAug 3, 20183 votes

i hope you're looking at nerfing damage runes from all trees along with this and not just some (precision (pta, conq) and resolve tree (grasp, aftershock)).

CyberBaltAug 3, 20183 votes

Leans pretty heavily on mage-oriented runes no?

HungryAngry2SPPAug 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=OELP3huv,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-08-03T02:13:20.336+0000)

Celerity Bonus Movement Speed converted to Attack Damage :: 9.6% >>> 6% Bonus Movement Speed converted to Ability Power :: 16% >>> 10%

Why not make is just a Movement Speed rune only. It could give +3% (like before nerfs) or more, but without the conversion to dmg.

LarrietAug 3, 20182 votes

Glad you mentioned Comet/Aery, as simply reducing the cooldown and damage on Electrocute and leaving it at that sort of leaves them overlapping to some degree. That reasoning of having the three at different tempos was cited when Aery's damage was first nerfed.

VelasanAug 3, 20182 votes

So if you are changing celerity to give less damage does that mean it will go back to giving more move speed?

CaptainAntiHerozAug 3, 20182 votes

Scorch needs to have a small scaling, it's useless late game

saltranAug 2, 201850 votes

We can all agree that THUNDERLORDS'S DECREE is a way cooler name that Electrocute.

ISLAMICWARRIOR99Aug 2, 201818 votes

And conqueror back to fervor lol.

Aram Mama Aug 3, 20182 votes

Please!

Whisper87Aug 2, 20189 votes

I think either Electrocute or Duskblade needs to take a hit. Either one works for me.

My take: Increase the CD on Electrocute by a solid 50% or more OR take down the bonus damage from Duskblade proc by a good 15%

UnboundHadesAug 3, 20188 votes

{quoted}

I think either Electrocute or Duskblade needs to take a hit. Either one works for me.

My take: Increase the CD on Electrocute by a solid 50% or more OR take down the bonus damage from Duskblade proc by a good 15%

electrocute is basically a double damage thunderlords with double the cooldown so if you increased the cd then it would just be a worse thunderlords at that point and nobody would take it leading to a useless rune