"Originally intended for Juggernauts to feel good about wading into battle, Sterak's finds itself...

Critmaster Garen·Feb 24, 2016·16 votes·1,064 views

...protecting marksmen from burst more often than aiding your standard beefcake."

if there was only some way to make the item ineffective on ranged champions without nerfing it for melees...

i also want to remind the people at riot, that jaurims fist still makes us farm up stats we already payed for. 450 gold combine cost for 5 ad and 150 health we have to farm vs. 400 gold for 150 health upon purchase . why is this a thing?

28 Comments

Espy PsycheFeb 24, 20166 votes

There is.

It's called changing Sterak's shield to scale off max HP.

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=Espy Psyche,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:12:03.011+0000)

There is.

It's called changing Sterak's shield to scale off max HP.

or just putting a "melee only" tag on the item.

they considered it for duskblade if it turned out to be a problem on some adc. well, steraks is not an adc item thats apparantly a huge problem on them.

so why wont they consider turning it into a melee item aswell?

and i think you meant off bonus hp.

Photos of GhostsFeb 25, 20163 votes

Why would you prevent adcs from having a defensive item? And don't you notice the prblem with melee adcs building it? The problem is in the item and the kits, NOOOOOOOOOT the range.

Critmaster GarenFeb 25, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-25T00:06:29.143+0000)

Why would you prevent adcs from having a defensive item? And don't you notice the prblem with melee adcs building it? The problem is in the item and the kits, NOOOOOOOOOT the range.

for the same reason they said theyd change duskblade into a melee only item.

its not intended for you, and its not suppsoed to be stronger on adc than its intended class. steraks in itself is not a problem on juggs. it does exactly what it was designed for. but adc are abusing it to become immune to burst when caught out of position.

theyre nerfing it because of adc. instead id rather have them make the item melee only.

VladimirSnakeyesFeb 25, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster GarenFeb 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Then the item would be weaker on champions like Gnar or Jayce. These champions should be able to use it, however if they were in ranged form and the item was melee only the passive just wouldn't activate. As "Photos of Ghosts" said, the issue is not with the range of champions using it. If they made it scale off of bonus hp they would fix every problem with the item very easily.

steraks was designed for juggs to be able to absorb burst damage when diving into the enemy team.

it is arguably as wrong on jayce in ranged form as on any marksman. his builds mostly focus heavy on ad, armor pen and cdr. his playstile in ranged form revolves mostly around poking from a distance. as a caster with high damage, a lot of range and poke, he shouldnt be invulnerable to burst either.

and gnar is extremely safe in ranged form anyways. he has 2 mobility tools and a slow. he really doesnt need steraks shield on top of that.

since gnar rarely dives into the enemy team in ranged form, i dont see the issue. hed still have it when he needs it.

considering that his window of power is supposed to be in melee form and hes actually supposed to be susceptible to burst and somewhat vulnerable in ranged form, i think steraks shield not working during that time makes a lot of sense.

the same would go for jayce. hed still have the shield in hammer form. its something they have to play around and would prevent them from benefiting from the shield when theyre playing passive at range, which i think is fair.

its the same problem as with adc. if either gnar or jayce are getting caught out in ranged form, steraks shouldnt save their ass. but if theyre switching into melee and dive in on the enemy, it would give them the shield help in a fight.

VladimirSnakeyesFeb 25, 20161 votes

[deleted]

Critmaster GarenFeb 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

The point is that there is more then one way to fix the item. One is to restrict who can purchase it, which restricts build diversity and playstyle. The other is to fix the way the item works so that it works better on the champions its supposed to work on, and worse on the champions it wasn't intended for.

I think its pretty obvious which solution is better. It is essentially the same thing as what they did to . You are free to purchase this on ranged champions, however the slow is so small it is rarely worth it. If scaled off of Bonus HP instead of maximum HP it would simply work better on champions that are stacking health (i.e. the ones the item was intended to be used by). They could even get fancy and have the shield scale with all bonus HP except for that provided by the item itself. Then if it was the only HP item you purchased (and you had none from runes/masteries) then it wouldn't provide a shield at all. This would leave it in a far healthier state than it is now, and keep it as a more flexible item than if it was restricted to melee.

ok, yes. ive seen this before and i think this woudl work aswell.

the main point of this thread is, that i want a reasonable explanation from a rioter why th item was nerfed for bruisers instead of doing somethign exactly like this.

there are so many tweaks they could have gone with, and they decided to scrap off yet another 100 hp from tanky champs. with the thought in mind "oh theyre stacking a load of health anyways, theyre not going to miss 100 hp".

completely ignoring that they already nerfed veterans scars by 100 hp and dead mans by 100 hp, and that its now already 300 hp that were missing.

HayRossFeb 25, 20161 votes

It does. The shield's value is 30% of max HP

ProfDrDeathFeb 25, 20161 votes

....Which it already does? The shield is equal to 30% of the user's HP.

MiraweaveFeb 24, 20166 votes

Or we could make it scale with bonus instead of maximum health and increase the percentage so that it's even with other tank items but doesn't enable champions like Zed to be completely immune to any form of burst.

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Or we could make it scale with bonus instead of maximum health and increase the percentage so that it's even with other tank items but doesn't enable champions like to be completely immune to any form of burst.

or give it a health threshold like warmorgs. you have to have 3000 health and upwards to get the shield. either way all of this would make so much more sense than a health nerf.

MiraweaveFeb 24, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:41:13.933+0000)

or give it a health threshold like warmorgs. you have to have 3000 health and upwards to get the shield. either way all of this would make so much more sense than a health nerf.

The problem with that is then it's either completely on or completely off. Imagine you're in a situation where you can buy it and end up at 2999 health, so it's literally useless to you.

Making it scale with a larger percentage of your bonus HP accomplishes a pretty similar goal without the annoying arbitrary cutoff.

WngNutFeb 24, 20163 votes

It's funny, when someone mentioned making it a melee only item to fix the issue riot came back and said they were nerfing it because of the juggernauts and not the marksmen, very interesting...

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's funny, when someone mentioned making it a melee only item to fix the issue riot came back and said they were nerfing it because of the juggernauts and not the marksmen, very interesting...

no, i think their argument was that it was "too cost effective".

so if this item is so overpowered and the juggernauts are not, even with the item in their core build, why dont we see compensation buffs to the champions specifically?

Photos of GhostsFeb 25, 20161 votes

They said it was a problem on everyone, juggs (being viable only because of that), adcs, melee adcs, melee adcs building full bruiser. Bt the patch notes are a single huge dank maymay.

Critmaster GarenFeb 25, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2016-02-25T00:06:05.286+0000)

They said it was a problem on everyone, juggs (being viable only because of that), adcs, melee adcs, melee adcs building full bruiser. Bt the patch notes are a single huge dank maymay.

they said it was a problem on adc. thats hwats in the patch notes.

none of the juggs has a high winrate or is too strong at the moment even with the item in their core build.

Subject 5Feb 24, 20161 votes

item 3053

1200 HP -30 AD -30 % Critical strike

After taking ##### damage a shield will be provided for said champion, increasing AD by 60 and lowering attack speed by 30% during the duration

I would recommend that this shield made the champion slower, I would say 40% slower sounds fair. Considering it would give 1200 HP. The item would be hard to pick up on champions that want to abuse it but would otherwise be a good buy for most champions that the item is made for. It would be a buff + nerf but most importantly make it a niche item. Also, this item should be expensive as all hell. Why is it not all that expensive as it stands?

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:21:29.977+0000)

1200 HP -30 AD -30 % Critical strike

After taking ##### damage a shield will be provided for said champion, increasing AD by 60 and lowering attack speed by 30% during the duration

I would recommend that this shield made the champion slower, I would say 40% slower sounds fair. Considering it would give 1200 HP. The item would be hard to pick up on champions that want to abuse it but would otherwise be a good buy for most champions that the item is made for. It would be a buff + nerf but most importantly make it a niche item. Also, this item should be expensive as all hell. Why is it not all that expensive as it stands?

you realize that the champions the item is designed for are also relying on the ad? this would be a pretty hefty nerf for brusiers aswell.

why is everyone so resistant to make the thing a melee item? i mean its designed for a group of melee champs, and a huge problem on ranged adc. so ffs what is the issue here?

this seems like a no brainer.

Subject 5Feb 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:39:49.466+0000)

you realize that the champions the item is designed for are also relying on the ad? this would be a pretty hefty nerf for brusiers aswell.

why is everyone so resistant to make the thing a melee item? i mean its designed for a group of melee champs, and a huge problem on ranged adc. so ffs what is the issue here?

this seems like a no brainer.

They are however when they take damage they will receive more strength, 30 AD isn't THAT much for a juggernaught when they have all of the AD items. Especially when they are taking damage, they are suppose to be immobile. Which, they aren't, but for Riots sake (Drink up) they will receive more damage and become slower, furthering the point that they are juggernauts.

Critmaster GarenFeb 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Subject 5,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:43:56.600+0000)

They are however when they take damage they will receive more strength, 30 AD isn't THAT much for a juggernaught when they have all of the AD items. Especially when they are taking damage, they are suppose to be immobile. Which, they aren't, but for Riots sake (Drink up) they will receive more damage and become slower, furthering the point that they are juggernauts.

actually it is quite a lot, considering that juggs usually dont build a lot of damage items.

and its not a 30 ad loss. its actually a loss of 65 ad, since the item right now grants 35 ad lategame on juggs.

Subject 5Feb 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nnzVHjMP,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-24T20:45:48.032+0000)

actually it is quite a lot, considering that juggs usually dont build a lot of damage items.

and its not a 30 ad loss. its actually a loss of 65 ad, since the item right now grants 35 ad lategame on juggs.

item 3071 item 3053 item 3742 item 3748 item 3022 Not to mention most have like 1.4- 2.0 AD ratios. It really isn't much. Also it is a loss of 30 AD and 60 AD granted when the person is being killed. It would be a niche item, which is what the item was made to be. A Niche.

JacknifeFeb 24, 20165 votes

Not matter the benefit I don't think anyone would buy an item that granted negative stats...

LankPantsFeb 25, 20161 votes

I can honestly say I'd buy the hell out of that item on Sejuani. 1200 HP, 1380 with Cinder is absurd and I really wouldn't care too much about losing a tiny bit of AD. The damage I'd gain from the stupid amount of HP would make up or it.

Certainly it wouldn't be a good item for Bruisers though, especially people like Irelia who often buy Triforce and as such actually have some crit to lose.

Dar RaksadaFeb 25, 20161 votes

NVM, misread.

disregardableFeb 24, 20161 votes

I don't think they've decided whether or not squishies having such reliable anti-burst is okay. It needed this nerf either way, and they're giving a patch to decide what to do with it.

What I think would be better: Rather than making it melee only, increase the CD on the shield significantly, throwing on a "CD reduced by the amount of health you have". This would make it a more aggressive item 3026 for squishies while maintaining the bruiser thing.

And it makes it less OP on Yi as well as marksmen. Which is good.

AstôlfoFeb 24, 20161 votes

Why not limit it to just champions with like, 2500-3000ish health or more? That would stop the stupid crap with squishies abusing it.

SohleksFeb 25, 20161 votes

Glad I'm not the only one who sees the fist as undertuned. When I rush frozen mallet on Gnar my preferred build path is pickaxe and ruby crystals. You don't get what you pay for with the fist. And by the time it is maxed you are about ready to upgrade it. And there is zero reason to ever sit on it.

In fact sitting on seeker's armgaurd isn't viable anymore either. You might as well build RoA or just count on your mage's range + waveclear with something else