Pyke has insane base stats for an assassin

TheShréktEffect·Aug 3, 2019·8 votes·2,311 views

Pyke is getting a lot of very deserved hate currently, but in all the posts about him I think I have yet to see anyone mention his ridiculous base stats, which is in my opinion a very good first step to nerfing him. Let's see:

has 600 base health at level 1; 8th highest, and tied with , and fricking . Yes, I'm not kidding, has as much lvl 1 base health as .

Not only that, has a huge 2300 base health at level 18; 3rd highest, and once again tied with . So literally has as much health as a tank, and in fact he has more health than most if not all _actual_tanks, including champs like , or .

has 45 base armour at level 1; 2nd highest after , and . Yes, he actually has more base armour than most tanks at level 1. Crazy right? Well...

has 130 armour at level 18. 130. Highest base armour in the entire game, and by a long shot. The 2nd highest is with 115. And just to drive the point home: when you think of anti-AD, armour stacking champions, you think of or , right? Nope, has more base armour than both of them, and more health too.

has actually a fairly standard 32 base magic resist at level 1. However, at level 18 his base magic resist is 57.5; 3rd highest behind and . Yep, again has more base magic resist than your go-to anti-magic champions like or even .

So yes, I could go on, but most of his other stats are actually fairly reasonable. Have a look for yourself.

Anyway, back to my point: has absolutely insanely ridiculous base stats, for no clear reason. He's incredibly frustratingly hard to pin down and focus between his dash-stun and his invis-move-speed-boost-sustain. And even if you do manage to focus him, his insane base stats make it very difficult. An already slippery assassin is literally more tanky than actual tanks, who are pretty much just punching bags.

has everything you could want in an assassin: incredible sustain, superb mobility, very good damage, great CC, and a resettable AoE execute with extra gold generation for better snowballing. What can't he do?

And before you say "you're just jumping on the Pyke-hate bandwagon cuz he just got a skin", I've always hated him, right from release. He is literally just a champion made for support players who is actually capable of getting pentakills. A lazy, sloppy mess, only made for sick highlights YouTube channels and that's literally it. "Here, have some easy pentakills for your stream highlights".

So yeah, not like Riot is going to give a damn about this, but Pyke's stats are way too high and no one seems to notice.

23 Comments

HotarµAug 3, 20197 votes

All of this is irrelevant because you're not mentioning the fact that he can't build any sort of health and realistically he'll never build armor/MR unless it's a 4th item or later.

An already slippery assassin is literally more tanky than actual tanks, who are pretty much just punching bags.

No, because Pyke isn't going to be building any armor or magic resist and cannot build health. He's got high base stats because that's all he gets for the overwhelming majority of the game. If you CC him and focus him he dies within a second.

has everything you could want in an assassin: incredible sustain, superb mobility, very good damage, great CC, and a resettable AoE execute with extra gold generation for better snowballing. What can't he do?

He can't heal his allies, he can't shield his allies, he can't reliably peel for his allies, he can't build tank.

Those are super important qualities, especially for a support.

Do I think Pyke is fine right now? No, absolutely not. Frankly I think the ult change he just got was stupid. He was in a bad state (46-48% WR across all ELOs) but this buff was just too much. They should have returned the % damage bonus on his tap-Q and slowly worked him up from there if that wasn't enough.

TheShréktEffectAug 3, 20195 votes

Not being able to build health doesn't matter when he is insanely slippery and has ridiculous base stats. He's an assassin, he's not meant to be tanky, and yet he is. Even without aftershock he is super hard to catch out and focus, and even then he's very tanky.

Assassins are meant to build full damage to blow up squishies, and be squishy themselves. If they want to get tanky, they have to sacrifice some damage for it. Pyke gets an insane amount of base stats and in my opinion much better safety options than almost all other assassins. Most assassins have a dash or a blink and maybe invis. Maybe some short CC like a slow etc. and definitely no sustain. Pyke has invis which also gives him movement speed, a dash followed by a damaging stun, making him difficult to chase, and he has good sustain. You can't poke him out of lane, you can't all-in him.

He doesn't need to heal or shield allies, he's not a support. He's an assassin. The only support-y thing in his kit is the bonus gold generation on his ult. He's not a support, so don't compare him to actual supports. Compare him to an assassin, and see how stupidly overtuned he is.

The EcdysiastAug 3, 20195 votes

So... you hate Pyke and are just listing off his stats while completely ignoring his passive, which makes all of them justified.

Great "discussion."

KazekibaAug 3, 20194 votes

Disagree that being unable to get health from a Cleaver justifies having Alistar's base stats with a shitload of extra armor.

Why does he need high base armor? He can just buy Tabis and GA for that, just like literally every other squishy in the entire game. his massive base stats are the biggest reason he's so effective. Blitz doesn't typically buy a lot of resists and cant heal allies either, yet Pyke out stats the fuck out of him.

Pyke's survivability comes from stealth, healing, and being uncatchable with both hard and soft CC as well as a dash and potential multiple blinks.

The EcdysiastAug 3, 20194 votes

You're free to have a wrong opinion.

Because none of what you just said is true. His base stats are none of the reason for his current effectiveness, because his base stats have not been changed since back when he had a solid 44% win rate across the board.

Blitzcrank has a shield for up to 280 base, an easier to land hook with no wind-up, and to say Pyke beats him in stats is a flat out lie when you actually look at the base damage, costs, and cooldowns of their abilities. (Nevermind the fact they actually have pretty close stats, so that point is incorrect anyway)

Pyke's rise in performance is due solely to the massive gold advantage he now grants his entire team. It's following absolutely no buffs to his base stats, and a bunch of nerfs to his abilities. It's really not hard to understand what the culprit is.

HotarµAug 3, 20191 votes

Why does he need high base armor? He can just buy Tabis and GA for that, just like literally every other squishy in the entire game.

Except other squishy champions have the ability to buy health and they aren't entirely dependent on lethality, atleast not to the extent that Pyke is.

If he buys Tabi, he's severely limiting his roaming potential and W effectiveness, if he buys GA before Duskblade/Youmuu's his entire kit is going to be kneecapped until he gets those items. Lower stun duration, lower W bonus MS, lower ult threshold.

his massive base stats are the biggest reason he's so effective.

No... it really isn't.

His strength comes from his ultimate, having the potential to execute all 5 members of the enemy team once they drop below a certain HP and grant your team double/triple gold while doing so? Pyke is an immensely powerful champion because of his ultimate alone.

His stats and passive act as a leash to keep him in check. See tank Pyke or solo Pyke for reference.

Blitz doesn't typically buy a lot of resists and cant heal allies either, yet Pyke out stats the fuck out of him.

Blitzcrank doesn't buy resistances? Since when?

Go on MOBAfire, OP.GG, or any other website and you'll see that his most common build paths are made entirely of resistance items. Locket, Zeke's, and Frozen Heart are his core items.

Blitzcrank also has different benefits like a massive AOE silence that instantly breaks all shields, a hook with less windup, and the ability to reliably CC an enemy with his low CD E.

Pyke's survivability comes from stealth, healing, and being uncatchable with both hard and soft CC as well as a dash and potential multiple blinks.

Uncatchable?

If you land any form of hard CC on him he dies nigh-instantly, the payoff is that he's slippery. Every assassin functions that way, from Akali to Zed.

KazekibaAug 3, 20191 votes

Everything dies if you land CC on them unless it's a fed Mundo. Pyke isn't alone in not being able to cast abilities while stunned.

He is somewhat more unique in having 8 abilities (really, 3) that enables him to evade being CCd in the first place though. Stealth, a situational blink, and a very fast dash all serve as defense mechanisms, he doesn't need the massive stats too.

but Talon can buy HP!

but he's not?

if he buys GA first he's handicapping his build!

Wow uhh What about . idk not buying GA as your literal first item?

iiGazeiiAug 3, 20194 votes

The difference is that Pyke can't build any more health, and needs to build lethality and AD to scale properly. Tanks build additional defenses and their abilities often scale off of those defenses. Pyke stays hella squishy for the whole game.

Pyke has high base stats because he is a support, and supports tend to have good base stats because they aren't getting as much gold as their counterparts.

The right way to nerf Pyke is to make his sustain more dependent on skill. Right now, he can take all the poke in the world and end up almost at the same amount of health he started at without needing to do anything but take damage. There's no way to bully him out of lane or take a good trade against him. They should reduce the percentage of damage he converts to gray health, but let him gain gray health by landing autos and abilities on enemy champions. That way, he only heals up all the damage he takes if he commits cooldowns or gets into melee range, and if you can avoid his abilities and kite him out, he will actually lose the trade.

The thigh guyAug 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

The difference is that Pyke can't build any more health, and needs to build lethality and AD to scale properly. Tanks build additional defenses and their abilities often scale off of those defenses. Pyke stays hella squishy for the whole game.

Pyke has high base stats because he is a support, and supports tend to have good base stats because they aren't getting as much gold as their counterparts.

The right way to nerf Pyke is to make his sustain more dependent on skill. Right now, he can take all the poke in the world and end up almost at the same amount of health he started at without needing to do anything but take damage. There's no way to bully him out of lane or take a good trade against him. They should reduce the percentage of damage he converts to gray health, but let him gain gray health by landing autos and abilities on enemy champions. That way, he only heals up all the damage he takes if he commits cooldowns or gets into melee range, and if you can avoid his abilities and kite him out, he will actually lose the trade.

HE IS AN ASSASSIN. THEU ARENT SUPPOSE TO BE TANKY.

iiGazeiiAug 3, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmiqsJGg,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-08-03T07:16:05.935+0000)

HE IS AN ASSASSIN. THEU ARENT SUPPOSE TO BE TANKY.

He's a support assassin. He's tankier than other assassins because other assassins aren't designed to be in a duo lane, taking damage from two enemies (one of which is a ranged auto-attacker).

Pyke has lots of base health, but he can't build any more. He's by no means tanky, just tankier than other assassins. He's still super-squishy in the late game and depends on his passive regen, not his base health, to survive.

KazekibaAug 3, 20191 votes

"He's by no means tanky"

item 3110 item 3065 item 3026 item 3111

Aftershock

Says otherwise. Literally nothing stops him from doing this and FH Rush was his core rush item. Tossing some lethality ratios into his kit forces buying them but, doesn't change the fact that he has base stats synergizing well with those items.

The thigh guyAug 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He's a support assassin. He's tankier than other assassins because other assassins aren't designed to be in a duo lane, taking damage from two enemies (one of which is a ranged auto-attacker).

Pyke has lots of base health, but he can't build any more. He's by no means tanky, just tankier than other assassins. He's still super-squishy in the late game and depends on his passive regen, not his base health, to survive.

No. His support aspect is filled by him having 2 forms of hard cc. He should not be Tanky.

iiGazeiiAug 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmiqsJGg,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2019-08-03T19:15:52.764+0000)

No. His support aspect is filled by him having 2 forms of hard cc. He should not be Tanky.

He does need to be tankier than other assassins. Other assassins are not designed to be in a duo lane.

The thigh guyAug 3, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He does need to be tankier than other assassins. Other assassins are not designed to be in a duo lane.

Then he needs to be giving something up. Which currently he isn’t.

iiGazeiiAug 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmiqsJGg,comment-id=000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-08-03T19:33:36.143+0000)

Then he needs to be giving something up. Which currently he isn’t.

Waveclear Solo kill potential pre-6 Poke through the minion wave

The thigh guyAug 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Waveclear Solo kill potential pre-6 Poke through the minion wave

No melee champion has wave clear issues. Not to mention his q can instant kill back line. And he’s a support. Supports aren’t suppose to have wave clear.

Solo kill potential. Again. Support. Never suppose to be solo.

Poke through minion wave. Cool? He gives up one thing for Immunity to poke Stupid damage More hard cc than most other supports Stupidly high bases Even stupider scaling.

iiGazeiiAug 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmiqsJGg,comment-id=00000000000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-04T01:41:30.505+0000)

No melee champion has wave clear issues. Not to mention his q can instant kill back line. And he’s a support. Supports aren’t suppose to have wave clear.

Solo kill potential. Again. Support. Never suppose to be solo.

Poke through minion wave. Cool? He gives up one thing for Immunity to poke Stupid damage More hard cc than most other supports Stupidly high bases Even stupider scaling.

He does have waveclear issues. His Q only hits one target now, can't Q an entire backline, and his E doesn't damage minions at all. Even if the enemy lets him step up to just auto the minion wave, that "waveclear" pales in comparison to supports like Lux, Morgana, and Karma, and to other assassins like Zed, Ekko, and Akali.

He loses solo kill potential compared to other assassins. He doesn't have the utility of a support or the one-shot combo of an assassin. He provides CC and damage to his lane, and that's all.

He's strong against poke, but he's incredibly vulnerable to CC and burst damage.

All of his hard CC and damage is telegraphed skillshots. If you get hit by it, Pyke outplayed you. He told you the skillshot was coming and you still failed to sidestep it when the skillshot came out.

He has high base stats, but doesn't scale well with defensive items since he can't build health. He is squishy throughout the entire game.

Pyke doesn't scale, he snowballs. A scaling champion can carry a game given only enough time. Pyke needs to secure a bunch of kills and get so far ahead on gold and XP that his abilities do nuclear damage. If you don't feed him, he's useless in teamfights and gets blown up the instant he gets in range to use any of his abilities. By denying Pyke kills (backing often, buying armor and potions, and avoiding poke to stay healthy, like you do against any other AD assassin) he will fall off.

Pyke is a skillcheck champion who demands that you avoid his skillshots or be forced to take bad trades. Everything he can do to you can be dodged easily, and he forfeits wave control to his enemy laners. You can easily freeze the wave in front of your tower and have a wall of minions protecting you from his Q while you force his carry to stay pushed up for easy ganks and punishment, and Pyke can do nothing to break it. The carry has to break it, which means they have to spend health and/or mana shoving it while you are free to harass them. Pyke punishes bad players who don't know how to dodge a skillshot or control the minion wave.

The thigh guyAug 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

He does have waveclear issues. His Q only hits one target now, can't Q an entire backline, and his E doesn't damage minions at all. Even if the enemy lets him step up to just auto the minion wave, that "waveclear" pales in comparison to supports like Lux, Morgana, and Karma, and to other assassins like Zed, Ekko, and Akali.

He loses solo kill potential compared to other assassins. He doesn't have the utility of a support or the one-shot combo of an assassin. He provides CC and damage to his lane, and that's all.

He's strong against poke, but he's incredibly vulnerable to CC and burst damage.

All of his hard CC and damage is telegraphed skillshots. If you get hit by it, Pyke outplayed you. He told you the skillshot was coming and you still failed to sidestep it when the skillshot came out.

He has high base stats, but doesn't scale well with defensive items since he can't build health. He is squishy throughout the entire game.

Pyke doesn't scale, he snowballs. A scaling champion can carry a game given only enough time. Pyke needs to secure a bunch of kills and get so far ahead on gold and XP that his abilities do nuclear damage. If you don't feed him, he's useless in teamfights and gets blown up the instant he gets in range to use any of his abilities. By denying Pyke kills (backing often, buying armor and potions, and avoiding poke to stay healthy, like you do against any other AD assassin) he will fall off.

Pyke is a skillcheck champion who demands that you avoid his skillshots or be forced to take bad trades. Everything he can do to you can be dodged easily, and he forfeits wave control to his enemy laners. You can easily freeze the wave in front of your tower and have a wall of minions protecting you from his Q while you force his carry to stay pushed up for easy ganks and punishment, and Pyke can do nothing to break it. The carry has to break it, which means they have to spend health and/or mana shoving it while you are free to harass them. Pyke punishes bad players who don't know how to dodge a skillshot or control the minion wave.

So I’m going to point out one thing, because of how stupid it is.

You are about to argue. That a champion. With up to 130 base armor, and up to 2300 base health is weak to burst?

I mean. You can argue it. Sure. I guess. But you are so incredibly wrong it’s not even funny.

iiGazeiiAug 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmiqsJGg,comment-id=0000000000000001000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-08-04T02:42:51.877+0000)

So I’m going to point out one thing, because of how stupid it is.

You are about to argue. That a champion. With up to 130 base armor, and up to 2300 base health is weak to burst?

I mean. You can argue it. Sure. I guess. But you are so incredibly wrong it’s not even funny.

Considering most champions have room in their build to run additional defenses, yes, Pyke is squishy. He needs to build pure damage to function, doesn't gain health from any source, and can't afford tank items without losing the damage he needs to get kills. He sometimes builds a GA, but Pyke's go-to is full lethality with a Coin or Relic Shield upgrade.

Do I think Pyke could use an adjustment? Absolutely. His sustain is too free and he gets too much value from Aftershock. He should get less gray health from take damage and get some by dealing damage, and his passive should convert armor/MR to lethality. He should always be comparatively squishy and he shouldn't be able to survive all poke damage for free.

What I'm saying is that he has weaknesses and downsides and he can be played around.

The EcdysiastAug 3, 20191 votes

Except most assassins fit Morello or Cleaver into their build nowadays, which he can't get health from.

Then there's the fact he was nerfed into the ground stat-wise, and is only seeing a rise in win rate because the gold advantage he brings to a team beats out even his old, better stats.