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To everyone who complains about the ADC circlejerk

TheShréktEffect··52 votes·2,424 views

Look, I know that seeing endless posts about ADCs isn't the most fun thing in the world. But to all those who simply dismiss all those posts as "whining" or "circlejerk" or "salt", no. ADCs ARE a problem right now. They have been a problem in the past, and they will probably also be a problem in the future.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good salty rant once in a while, but not 24/7. However, I also don't like people flat out dismissing the concerns of a clearly very large number of players. If there are hundreds, thousands even of players saying that ADCs are too strong, then perhaps they are.

P.S: they are

105 Comments

AirKingNeo26 votes

When a circlejerk gets so strong that there's an anticirclejerk circlejerk, you know there's a problem and people don't offer solutions.

Ralanr4 votes

Yo dawg, I heard you like circlejerks

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

ok but the game has always been an ADC META

of course adcs are strong and will always be as long as this META EXIST

SnakDatSmilesBak5 votes

Literally a google search will prove you wrong.

TheShréktEffect11 votes

It's not that ADCs are always meta, it's that they're never really out of meta. They're never a bad pick, and that's a sign of them being too strong.

AirKingNeo3 votes

So they hasn't been times when Jinx has been shit? What about Twitch? What about Caitlyn? What about Varus?

Apparently the Boards forgets there are multiple ADCs who rotate in metas like EVERY OTHER LANE.

KitSun98 votes

No, he's not talking about certain ADC's being always meta, it's that the ADC position itself has always been populated by similar high AD DPS Ranged Carries, which makes them pretty much mandatory for any team comp.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Obviously? You need DPS from somewhere and only ADCs + Kayle do that.

Fefnil2 votes

False. There are a lot of subclasses that deal high dps endgame. These are marksmen, juggernauts, skirmishers and battle mages. Every champion belonging to one of these subclasses is a late game carry. You can try on a dummy, if you want. Champions not-marksmen from one the subclasses listed will deal dps comparable to that of a traditional marksman. The difference obviously lies in the fact that we don't fight dummies. This means that dps is not everything and there are other things. Things like range, that juggernauts and skirmishers lack. Sustain, that battle mages lack. Mobility, that juggernauts and battle mages lack. Tank shredding and objective taking, that juggernauts mostly lack. Reliability in dealing damage: battle mages and juggernauts mostly have gimmicks attached to it or it's skillshot based, and there are only a couple of straight up autoattacking skirmishers (Yi, Tryn and Yasuo). The only thing marksmen really lack is tankiness, but with the current builds this is also arguable. So no, dps is not the reason marksmen are always picked.

AirKingNeo1 votes

No, marksmen are the only class who can sufficiently build full damage and utilize DPS.

Fefnil1 votes

I said, try it on a dummy. Take Master Yi and build him full crit/as and he will probably have even more dps than marksmen. Take Darius, build him like a juggernaut, and you'll see he will have similar dps to a marksman. Take any juggernaut, skirmisher or battle mage, build them with their optimal build and try them on a dummy. They will still deal comparable dps to a marksman. What makes marksmen special is range, reliability and sustain, not dps.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yi is the one exception. Darius gets kited and dies.

And if you stay marksmen are broken because they're ranged and reliable, then you don't have an argument because that breaks the fundamentals of the game.

Fefnil1 votes

And how does that prove your point? You said marksmen are mandatory because they have the highest dps. I said no, that's not the reason, there are many classes that have same dps. What they have is range and reliability. And yes, marksmen have always been broken because they're ranged and reliable, that's not a surprise and it's always been like this since beginning.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Darius can't DPS if he's dead, which kinda happens when a melee champion goes in.

And yes, marksmen have always been broken because they're ranged and reliable, that's not a surprise and it's always been like this since beginning.

See, this is why no one takes the boards seriously anymore. You people come up with shit, ignoring the fundamentals of the game. Fine, you tell me how you're gonna nerf ADCs without breaking the entire game.

Nik Nikerson2 votes

Why do I remember 3 months of shitty memes that directly contradict that?

Does no one remember the near overwhelming number of complaints over Ziggs getting played bot because ADCs were such trash?

Ariel the Cruel7 votes

Most of that was just ADC's complaining about being harassed and losing tower from beyond their effective range. Not about them being weak.

coughTopIslandcough

LordGeovanni5 votes

20% Ziggs 80%adc . Adc 2k17.

LordGeovanni3 votes

Not trying to insult you but you have a brain to think. Ziggs being played didnt make adcs bad according to the numbers. Still had an adc in every game right. Not to mention when Ziggs was played adcs were often in another lane. Also talk of Ziggs boosted Ziggs numbers

Glory ln Death3 votes

From what I recall, it was more like 5% Ziggs, 95% ADC.

LordGeovanni1 votes

oh i thought it was a significant number

Glory ln Death1 votes

Not really, it just got a lot of attention since it was used in a few pro matches and on streams. In SoloQ and Normals, it really didn't get much play.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo10 votes

show me a meta or state of the game outside season 2 where we havent had an adc bot lane meta?

SnakDatSmilesBak5 votes

Just because there has always been an adc bot lane doesn't mean that it's an "adc meta." By your logic I can claim that league has always had a support meta.

Meta in this case means most effective tactic available. If the game has always been an adc meta then in every season the most effective tactic would be to take multiple adcs on each team. Reference the tank meta.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo7 votes

lol you can argue what you want...

but in every game played besides a few of the ziggs bot. mord bot here n there . an adc has been in every team comp

the marksmen adc

now yes there has always been tops of all kinds of champ classes/subclasses just as jungle and mid and support

but there is always "marskmen" and the reason why we have the adc/support bot lane is cuz adcs need to be funneled gold and protected to reach their mid -late game to be the hyper dps range carries that melt targets and objectives by having the game played as is supports typically dont get gold or take cs they use gold income items/runes/masteries and are there to get the adc fed gold through laning phase...

the other lanes get solo experience and gold but typically scale earlier but as every one cries ranged auto attackers have an unfair advantage and when a "marksmen"reaches the pinnacle of their power curve they typically take over the game and the game with the better adc wins

this has been meta forever

SnakDatSmilesBak3 votes

lol you can argue what you want...

but in every game played a support has been in every team comp

the support

now yes there has always been tops of all kinds of champ classes/subclasses just as jungle and mid and support

but there is always "support" and the reason why we have the adc/support bot lane is cuz adcs need to be funneled gold and protected to reach their mid -late game to be the hyper dps range carries that melt targets and objectives by having the game played as is supports typically dont get gold or take cs they use gold income items/runes/masteries and are there to get the adc fed gold through laning phase and provide large amounts of utility throughout the game

the other lanes get solo experience and gold but typically scale earlier but as every one cries ranged auto attackers have an unfair advantage and when a "support" reaches the pinnacle of their power curve they typically take over the game and the game with the better support wins with their massive utility

this has been support meta forever

Now my objective isn't to poke fun at you, but rather to show you that just because a role has always existed and been important doesn't mean that the meta has always revolved around that role.

AMYS GRAVE5 votes

Support is a role, not a class. Metas are defined by the classes which are strong within them, not the roles which are strong. We've had assassin metas, tank metas, etc... because assassins and tanks are classes not roles.

Meanwhile we've had mage supports, enchanter supports, warden supports, etc... just like we've had tank tops, fighter tops, carry tops, ... just like we've had mage mids, adc mids, assassin mids, ...

But bot lane has been marksmen since season 1. We get variance on the other roles, with multiple classes having metas that favor them in that role or not.

Mister Support10 votes

Support = role, not class. Meanwhile ADC is a class and the role is Bot Lane. There are 4 classes good in the support role: Enchanter, Warden, Burst Mage, and the occasional Vanguard. Meanwhile, only one class is good for the Bot Lane and that's ADCs. That's the difference between "ADC" meta and "support" meta.

SnakDatSmilesBak5 votes

Are you seriously saying adc is a class and not a role? Lmfao read your comments before you post please

Variks the Loyal10 votes

ADC is a class, not a role.

The role is 'Bot Lane.' The class is 'Marksman.' The common term for Marksman is 'ADC.'

Fefnil1 votes

Technically he's right, though. Adc means "Attack damage carry", which actually translates to any carry type champion with physical damage. This includes most marksmen, juggernauts and skirmishers. On the other hand, it's common use to associate adc with marksmen, and to call its position in bot lane as adc, since the subclass system is a relatively recent one, and people are used to marksmen being the "only" carry thanks to old features that were unique to them. On another hand, though, there is also a marksman that is not an adc, and it's Corki after the marksmen rework.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

Technically he's right, though. Adc means "Attack damage carry", which actually translates to any carry type champion with physical damage. This includes most marksmen, juggernauts and skirmishers. On the other hand, it's common use to associate adc with marksmen, and to call its position in bot lane as adc, since the subclass system is a relatively recent one, and people are used to marksmen being the "only" carry thanks to old features that were unique to them. On another hand, though, there is also a marksman that is not an adc, and it's Corki after the marksmen rework.

Corki is still an attack damage carry. He still mostly builds AD, he just deals magic damage. But Attack Damage Carry has nothing to do with physical as a damage type, it's just AD as a stat.

Fefnil2 votes

The problem lies in the origin of the term. Why have the terms adc and apc even been born? Why not call them simply carry? If those characteristics were fused in the name it means they had some important meaning. Why should I care if a carry is ad or ap? Having to distinguish between ad and ap is important because it changes the stat I have to buy to counter him. If it's an adc, I buy armor. If it's an apc, I buy mr. So why did they use the stats attack damage and ability power and not directly physical and magic damage? Well, because, at the time, physical dealers built ad, and magic dealers built ap. There was an association between the two because it was all there was. It was clearly a faulty way, since no one at Riot ever relegated ad to physical and ap to magic. They are simply stats used to balance the game. Like for example Lee Sin's E that scales ad but deals magic damage. The problem is that now we have a carry that scales ad but actually deals magic damage, Corki. How should we call him? He scales ad, so adc? But the core meaning of adc is that "he deals physical damage, so I build armor", and here's the problem. So, at the end, it's probably more correct call him an apc since, even if he doesn't build ap, he deals magic damage which is what apc means. In the same way, if someday Riot decides to create a "true" physical damage battle mage that scales ap but deals physical damage (so he doesn't double down on auto attacks) he should probably be called adc, because you will still use armor to counter him.

Shablagoo10 votes

You literally just proved your self wrong, adc always going bot is a tactic meaning that adc's have always been meta since they are always bot, it doesnt mean that they have to be in every lane, just every game.

SnakDatSmilesBak5 votes

Ok then. Since there is always a support going bot, league has always had a support meta.

Shablagoo10 votes

Yes but within the Support role their is the, tank supports and the shielding/heal supports(also poke mage supports), they switch between the two depending on how effective adc are in the game. If adc's are dying to quick or mage support is a sheild/heal meta. If Adc's are doing well and just need peel to do their thing tank supprts are meta. The support role is 100% dependent on the adc which literally just proves how much more adc's impact the game, they literally define the meta for an entire role. Adc is pure marksmen and they are always meta regardless of what state any other class is in it never changes for them, so by definition they are always meta.

SnakDatSmilesBak5 votes

If you can separate support classes like that, then why can't you separate adc classes like that? Burster, tank busters, dps, aoe?

Adcs going bot has been meta for several seasons but so has support. I'd argue support rule was actually here before adc role. Does that mean league always had a support meta?

Do you have any way to actually prove supports are meta or not based on adcs?

The was league is built, adc is a role. You need consistent reliable damage and the best way to get that is through an attack damage carry. This is because the best way to take objectives is ranged auto attack dps. The game and it's champions are designed to incorporate adcs and supports into bot lane. See the tower nerf in bot. That makes it a role in the game.

Shablagoo8 votes

Because the marksmen role doesnt have any difference's in it, its consistent throughout, a high dmg fragile glass canon class with consistent ranged dmg. Riot didnt even try to divide or separate the class because their is no point. What I mean by adc or marksmen always being meta is compared to other roles, no matter how much items change or new concepts are added to this game they will always be needed.

If the adc role didnt exist their wouldnt be a need for supports, wards, you can get them yourself, cc most tanks can provide them, almost all other classes are self reliant so they dont need support or help they just provide back up convenience, however their main goal or use is to protect and help the adc get a lead and farm safely. However you will always need an adc, because you NEED a reliable source of dmg, and the support role was created to make sure that reliable dmg is kept safe long enough to do that dmg.

JaxMoonStealer1 votes

Meta does not mean "most effective tactic available." Not sure why some people keep claiming that.

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

Maybe because it actually does mean that in this context.

IcyPepper4 votes

Meta is short for metagaming.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metagaming

Teridax687 votes

While I agree that a lot of threads criticizing marksman balance/design essentially say the same thing, and unfortunately often don't dig deep enough into how to address the problem, I also think it's understandable for there to be a degree of repetition, because this is an ongoing issue that has so far received no Riot response, so to anyone posting those kinds of threads or comments it doesn't feel like they're being listened to. Ideally, the best solution would be to concentrate hot-button issues onto single, high-visibility threads, so that the same discussion wouldn't take up most of the front page, but we've had technical problems trying to implement that in the past.

I'm with you here, it's tiresome to see the same thing get said over and over again, and I think there needs to be a means of culling repetition across the front page of Gameplay, where there are many topics that deserved to be discussed and precious little space. What are your thoughts on answering this? Do you think hosting a pinned megathread on a particularly high-visibility topic could help Gameplay?

AirKingNeo1 votes

This post isn't complaining about the ADC circlejerk, but complaining about people against the circlejerk.

Teridax682 votes

Yeah, what bugs me about this thread it's that its main body is a complaint about complaining about a series of complaints, and I don't think complaining about behavior within the Boards is relevant to Gameplay. However, it also does go back to the more basic topic of criticizing marksmen, which is at the center of these series of debates. As such, I'm kind of on the fence as to whether or not to keep this thread on Gameplay, as it is somewhat topical and conducive to useful discussion, but at the same time goes more off-topic than it should.

Selegun2 votes

I like the idea of pinning the topic though perhaps a separate sub board for Game Balance would work better? I like to jump into the gameplay boards to ask about generic things or interesting quirks in the game but feel bad that my topics don't get attention due to not containing keyword to link them to 'X is op' or 'This class update sucks'.

subhuman team XD2 votes

yes please , im pretty sure you were here when the rengar discussion was being brought up in the boards , can you please give a choice to apply for a mega thread vote for any kind of discussion (adc stuff , assassin stuff , reworks , reverts , suggestions ...) and based on how many votes each type gets and how much success it gets , the mega thread should be created , for example , rengarmains want to make a mega thread about rengar that talks about various ways of balancing/making rengar fun to play but we cant just keep spamming the boards with multiple posts about rengar , might as well create a mega thread for rengar to make it easier and better for everyone to discuss about rengar or any other type of discussion

LightIsMyPath2 votes

What about inserting an undercategory in which similar thread are grouped, refreshing every x time. So for example hot topics atm "balance issue with ADC" "tank items too weak" "tank support items are bought on jungle and top" "issues with shield and heals" "damage reduction too strong" and when someone makes a new post he has to choose a category (or create one if no one fits his thread) and after x time of inactivity on the subject (new threads on that category) the category disappears and what was inside gets placed in the normal gameplay space. Permanent category of "I need advices" to group all requests for help. Just an idea crossing my mind, hope you can understand even through my terrible English

Teridax681 votes

Your post is quite readable, and thank you for the suggestion! Ideally, the idea of a category that would appear while relevant, and disappear while not, would be what we'd want to achieve with megathreads, but currently we're doing this with pretty much the same resources as an average poster, give or take the ability to pin threads (which also auto-removes pinned threads from the front page, so it can potentially harm visibility). We're still experimenting on the format (we did a Rengar megathread a little while back, which had mixed results), and one of the important factors for a megathread should definitely be relevance.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

Dig deep enough? There's been years worth of complaints pointing out a handful of issues. Some of the problems are direct design flaws, others incidental oversights, and occasionally ignorant co-operation between the different branches; but usually a combination. So let me elaborate for you.

Marksmen get too much damage too fast for any other class to meaningfully compete unless some cheesy strategy is used; critical hits specifically turning them from dps threats to physical bursters, often hitting quadruple digits on a single auto-attack once they get fed. Reduce their damage output in some fashion, whether slowing their power curve or curbing their overall power. Rework critical hits, or lower damage or attack speed on their items. Or significantly increase the costs of their items, since they already have some of the easiest time farming.

Lifesteal is disgustingly prevalent, applying both on critical hits and repeatedly from boosted attack speed, generally prevents them from being killed by other dps dangers; and practically requiring stun-locking or even more burst to kill them. Lower lifesteal or remove it's boosted interaction with critical hits, or make it an overtime effect similar to the bleed on death's dance.

Safety nets! I remember back in season one through five when they had to be protected by their teammates in a fight. Thanks to tacked on effects to their already powerful primary and niche items, they get increased windows of power via extra damage reduction and delay, ontop of guardian's angel being reworked to benefit them. A few niche items like essance reaver and runaan's hurricane should've stayed on the sidelines, as they can give way too much influence over the game depending on the marksmen. That's not counting the extra movement speed on a handful of items, or several activatable items to give them even more of an edge against any competition. Undo the excessive buffs from the items in pre-season six (as I doubt they've kept previous states of the reworked champions), this alone should be enough to pull them back into line with the other classes. Either remove the bonus movement speed, the free damage reduction/delay, or the extra effects on their counter items. Things like maw of malmortius and phantom dancer did their job well enough before getting buffed; while other spiteful designs like dominik's regards and guardian angel, are just double standards, allowing one class to screw over another for doing it's job.

If an item is good, marksmen will eventually abuse it, then riot guts the item instead of their interaction with it. It noticeably started in season two with ezreal, and it's become a more obnoxious as time has gone on. Ask juggernauts about sterak's gage, or tanks about dead man's plate, or assassins about edge of night. Drop the favoritism; make items melee only, or change them to rely on bonus stats so it benefits intended classes significantly more.

Teridax682 votes

If you read through my post history, you'll see that I'm personally well aware of the various threads that got made about marksmen, and share many of the opinions you posted here. :P

I'm not saying that the conversation about marksmen doesn't dig deep enough in general, but as often happens when a topic trends on Gameplay, many threads often copy other threads on the front page without adding much to the conversation, and sometimes just try to cash in on the sentiment with a catchy title and too little substance. In recent times, one of the topics du jour has been marksman balance, and while many valuable things have been said about marksmen on the Boards, many threads unfortunately missed that opportunity while still bringing up the subject.

I agree that there's years worth of complaints around marksmen that have yet to be resolved, and I definitely want to see those issues get discussed more and, with enough luck, answered by Riot. One of the current issues with Gameplay, though, is that often there's a pretty big noise-to-signal ratio that makes discussion difficult, largely because of those less contributive threads. There is plenty of useful conversation to have around marksmen, but in order for that conversation to have more of an impact we all need to collectively step up our game, and avoid simply jumping on the bandwagon for easy upvotes.

ZT Xperimentor2 votes

I tend not to unless I've had several conversations with someone, I already burn too much time going down similar rabbit holes, lol. Nice to hear from fellow intellectual though!

The copy&paste posts is probably due to these problems being significantly reoccurring, repeatedly aggravating parts of the community; which can point out a design problem, whether a philosophy or logistical, still one that shouldn't have left the drawing board as is.

Marksmen weren't as much of a problem years ago, many longtime players agree season three and five were some of the best balance wise. However marksmen have had the biggest trend of being buffed out of any class, thus stirring up hatred for them.

Sadly I concur any meaningful discussion is problematic to reach the right people. Doesn't help riot outright ignores their own forums in favor of other media. Unfortunately I don't see more sophisticated discussions becoming prominent as long as esports is the focus of the company; as it's drawn in much younger folk who lack more detailed and critical thinking, along with sports fan style players who merely mimic other more popular players and defend them regardless of evidence.

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