For the next several patches, can we please have nothing but constant nerfs to everything?

TheShréktEffect·Jan 21, 2018·110 votes·2,763 views

I saw a thread which said PtA should be buffed for melee champions. No. It shouldn't.

You know what should happen? Nerfs. Lots and lots of nerfs. Everything about the game is absolutely insane right now. Most notably, damage and CDR. Both of these things should be toned down, gutted even.

I don't want to see a Vayne 3 shotting someone just as much as I don't want to see an Ornn winning lane with a braindead W spam. I don't want to see Lulu perma-shielding a Kog'Maw who then proceeds to press W and afk while my entire team melts under him. I don't want to see Janna spamming maxed W for poke every 5 seconds. I don't want to see a support Xerath chunking my bot lane for a quarter of their HP with just his base damage.

I don't want to see Nasus out trading me at level 2 and getting free money and stacks with Kleptomancy. I'm sick of getting killed by a Twitch who appears out of thin air and then obliterating me (oh, and the rest of my team as well) before any of us have time to even react, let alone CC and burst him. I'm sick of a single mid game push resulting in 2 towers and an inhibitor followed by a dragon, all because one idiot on the other team got caught out by a stray hook or whatever. Oh, and that's without Herald.

I'm tired of beating an AD assassin in lane, only to have them eventually gather up enough money for a Duskblade, and proceed to squash me like a bug as soon as they have it, as if my lead was non-existent. I've had enough of getting camped by a Warwick, seeing him sprint towards my poor ass at some 500+ move speed. I'm sick of Vladimir, just Vladimir; I hate everything about him, I hate how ridiculously difficult he is to kill, even with his pool on CD.

I hate seeing Tristana, Vayne, Xayah, Ezreal or any other ADC with reliable self-peel abilities. It's not bad enough I have to dig through countless shields, slows, stuns, knock-ups, knock-backs, polymorphs, you name it, only to have the ADC who I have now supposedly gotten on top of as, say Camille or something, dash, blink, stealth or become untargetable and get away. Oh, and then obviously 3 shot me.

I could go on, but I hope I've made my point clear. Please, for the love of God, you have no idea how difficult it is to try and remain patient, calm and collected when this is what we have to deal with, because the balance team, who I don't for a second believe have any clue as to what they're doing with this game, are doing what they're doing. Snap out of it already, you've had your fun, no one cares about your precious LC$$$, so stop catering to the 0.0001% of your playerbase (i.e. the pro players), and start looking at what the average player wants.

Speaking of this, what the hell was up with season 7 worlds? Why was Ardent Censer allowed to go through to worlds in its completely broken state? "We don't want to make significant balance changes because the pros won't be able to adapt". Really? Then what kind of pro players are they? I would expect pro players to be able to adapt to large scale changes much quicker than an average player, to come up with new strategies and champion builds pretty much on the spot. I don't think they need months to do that, especially not when that means the rest of the playerbase having to deal with shit like the Censer meta, which you refused to end for this very reason.

And before anyone brings up Hashinshin, yes, I know he's basically a meme at this point, but honestly I can see why he says the things he does. The game is in an absolutely horrific state at the moment, and it's only been getting worse since at least season 6.

Scrolling through the boards recently I have hardly found a single thread praising the game developers unironically. I think that should tell you something, and if it doesn't, then may I suggest a crowbar to pull your heads out of your behinds and get to proper work.

No one enjoys teamfights that last 5 seconds, all decided essentially by which ADC right-clicks first. No one wants to have to deal with the ridiculous pressure they're put under during the lane phase, where a single death can cost as much as the tower, leading to an unstoppable snowball and complete and utter rofl-stomp that usually follows. No one likes coming out of a 15-minute game feeling like they literally couldn't do anything about losing it. And I doubt very many people enjoy coming out of a 15-minute game feeling bad for the enemy team after such a total stomp-fest. Losing never feels fun, but right now it feels worse than ever, and even winning makes you feel kind of sorry for the enemies, seeing them pointlessly struggle under your thumb as you crush them with basically zero effort.

Come on Riot, what is going on? You know how to make the game fun to play, you've already done it a few years ago, so why have you taken this direction with it? Something makes me think you don't want to balance the game properly. Whether you're actually intellectually capable of it is probably another question, but it seems like you're not even trying anymore.

TL;DR: The damage is way too high right now, there is too little actual decision making involved in winning and there is too little that can be done to turn around a losing game, objectives are too easy and too impactful. There's too much CDR everywhere, meaning there is no longer the need to plan your moves carefully, you can just spam everything and hope for the best.

P.S: Dear mods, please stop censoring legitimate gameplay threads that you don't like. Last thread I saw was someone saying Vayne is so ridiculously overpowered, that not banning her is basically handing away the game for free, i.e. trolling. Stop giving some lame excuses about the quality of the post, it's perfectly clear what OP meant, if you just use a few brain cells, doesn't take Einstein to figure it out.

49 Comments

Baron BarianJan 21, 201814 votes

But if everything gets nerfed, will anything truly have been nerfed?

DanjengJan 21, 201823 votes

Things that require nerfs should be nerfed. Things that do not require nerfs will not be nerfed. However, the last thing needed is a buff. This is because the buff would require a nerf sooner or later, and so goes the cycle of overpowered shit.

Lord Phazanor Jan 21, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron Barian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3EP1GE0A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-01-21T00:12:36.601+0000)

But if everything gets nerfed, will anything truly have been nerfed?

I know it's probably just a joke, but yes, since fights would last a lot longer if all the damage is reduced. Even if shields are reduced as well, the fact there's more damage than shields means that everything would live longer. IMHO that would be beneficial, but I see why some people wouldn't like that.

Mysticman89Jan 21, 20181 votes

A strict interpretation of "everything" would mean armour/MR/health also gets nerfed, so fight times could still be the same, it's just numbers would all around be smaller.

PB4UAMEJan 22, 20182 votes

Only if you assume A everything is nerfed to the same degree, which we have no reason to assume, and B everything also experience the same returns to scale as one another, and share the same number of inputs, and A holds as well.

If say you had a damage function that was say damage before resistance is equal to: (a^.5)(b^1.2)(c^1.1)(d^2)(e^.4) and defense in terms of effective health to that same damage type, say, physical damage, is given in the form (f/100)g, then even if you nerf a, b, c, d, e, f, and g all by the same amount, or the same proportion, no matter what, you would still shift the balance of offense and defense. There is no way to make a net neutral change in that point, unless you graph out the curves for them all, or algebraically set them equal to each other, at a lower value again, and hope that there are plenty of points of intersection.

Mysticman89Jan 22, 20181 votes

Hence 'could' still be the same, not 'would'.

It's also possible fights could be even shorter if effective health was nerfed harder than damage.

Point was that it's possible to nerf everything and change nothing, as the first post in this comment chain was getting at. It not definitely a "yes, fights would be longer" unless you assume it's only the damage of stuff being nerfed, in which case that's obvious, but the initial comment said "everything", not "all damage".

Lord Phazanor Jan 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

A strict interpretation of "everything" would mean armour/MR/health also gets nerfed, so fight times could still be the same, it's just numbers would all around be smaller.

I see it this way: there are more ways to increase damage than there are ways to increase durability (items, levels, runes, you name it). If you nerf ALL TEH THINGS, damage will be the most nerfed comparatively (I know that's not the proper word but I'm not a native english speaker so bear with me).
To be honest, I'm pretty sure that unless you're trying to be a smartass nitpick, you clearly see what I mean. If you don't I'll spend 30 mins looking for words I'll never use again just to make sure you understand what I mean.

Mysticman89Jan 22, 20181 votes

If you nerf all the damage related things a tiny amount, but then nerf effective health stuff a lot, then fight times get shorter, while still "nerfing all the things". If you nerf all the effective health things a tiny amount, but barely touch damage, fights will be longer. It seems pretty clear that somewhere in between there exists a balance where fight times remain the same despite nerfing everything, so it's true that its possible to nerf everything but change nothing. If someone assumed nerfing everything by the "same amount", that doesn't necessarily even make sense since units are different and what a nerf even is depends on context (for example, lowering numbers can be a buff, as in cooldowns), so just because theres more offensive numbers than defensive numbers doesn't mean their relative impact will differ.

I get what you're trying to say, but the only reason I've been commenting in the first place is because I was getting the impression you were trying to be a "smartass nitpick"(*) by trying to correct someone pointing out that nerfing everything could result in no relative change in fight times, which is true.

(*) Actually figured it was just an oversight of defensive stuff on your part or forgetting nerfs didn't need to be the same magnitude rather than assuming you were trying to be a smartass by correcting someones joke, but you've dug in rather hard now.

Lord Phazanor Jan 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

If you nerf all the damage related things a tiny amount, but then nerf effective health stuff a lot, then fight times get shorter, while still "nerfing all the things". If you nerf all the effective health things a tiny amount, but barely touch damage, fights will be longer. It seems pretty clear that somewhere in between there exists a balance where fight times remain the same despite nerfing everything, so it's true that its possible to nerf everything but change nothing. If someone assumed nerfing everything by the "same amount", that doesn't necessarily even make sense since units are different and what a nerf even is depends on context (for example, lowering numbers can be a buff, as in cooldowns), so just because theres more offensive numbers than defensive numbers doesn't mean their relative impact will differ.

I get what you're trying to say, but the only reason I've been commenting in the first place is because I was getting the impression you were trying to be a "smartass nitpick"(*) by trying to correct someone pointing out that nerfing everything could result in no relative change in fight times, which is true.

(*) Actually figured it was just an oversight of defensive stuff on your part or forgetting nerfs didn't need to be the same magnitude rather than assuming you were trying to be a smartass by correcting someones joke, but you've dug in rather hard now.

TBH most of that discussion is totally useless since the outcome can be anything depending on how much each thing gets nerfed.

DracosKasuJan 22, 20181 votes

People already complaint there is too much burst nerfing champ will actually reduce it.

NorthernRedStarJan 21, 201814 votes

I agree with you. You can bash Hashinshin all you want - he does tilt easily - but the things he says about the current game balance are true.

LordGeovanniJan 22, 20181 votes

despite him being the only top lane main that i get to see in the upper layers of league twitch i dropped watching him because not only does he blame other people when plays go wrong he rages so much. I dont mind him blaming other people but he doesnt see when he messed up the play or what he could have done better in the play which is what gets me. But that video is what most of the community is thinking

ŚhunpoJan 21, 20188 votes

Buff my %%%%% Volibear. He's been dead on sites like op.gg for almost a year now.

PennsJan 21, 20181 votes

only if you revert my %%%%% fizz, hes been dead for over a year now :[

LordGeovanniJan 22, 20181 votes

fizz is fine people just dont want to work to get value out of him when you can get the same value easier on poke mages. Volibear is actually bad and his value isnt about what you do but what the enemy allows you to do.

PennsJan 22, 20181 votes

value isnt about what you do but what the enemy allows you to do.

Thats literally fizz as well tho. Just that he has more cc than Volibear so he is more useful

YuGiHoJan 21, 20188 votes

Nerf Voli 2018?

SwarovskoJan 21, 20186 votes

Preach. I seriously look at my hp bar and before I can even realise I died I'm like "WOW AM I THIS LOW :O???? WHERE DID I TAKE DMG FROM???"

Stand Alone WolfJan 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Preach. I seriously look at my hp bar and before I can even realise I died I'm like "WOW AM I THIS LOW :O???? WHERE DID I TAKE DMG FROM???"

Vayne

And she wasn't even in your match. xD

SwarovskoJan 22, 20181 votes

Yeah I always ban her so no wonder she's not in my match

BoilTheOilJan 21, 20185 votes

rather have hash be the lead designer than these fuckups

LVL99 Helper TKJan 21, 20181 votes

{quoted}

rather have hash be the lead designer than these fuckups

hashinshin our commander, he knows de wae

TheShréktEffectJan 22, 20181 votes

Inb4 Jax is suddenly god tier xD

Dankest KhanJan 21, 20185 votes

With how fast these matches are I'm wondering if Riot isn't trying to copy Heroes of the Storm. Except HOTS is nowhere near as stressful or frustrating as a 15 minute LoL stomp is.

LVL99 Helper TKJan 21, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dankest Khan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3EP1GE0A,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-01-21T21:47:17.682+0000)

With how fast these matches are I'm wondering if Riot isn't trying to copy Heroes of the Storm. Except HOTS is nowhere near as stressful or frustrating as a 15 minute LoL stomp is.

Hots is also a shitty advertisement for Blizzard's other games pretending to be a moba

bbQsauçeJan 21, 20184 votes

[deleted]

TheShréktEffectJan 21, 201814 votes

It's not a "git gud" issue. First of all, I'm Diamond, buddy, but that's irrelevant. The League that your average player plays and the League that pro players play are so different from each other they might as well be different games altogether, so why are both being balanced with mainly only one in mind?

SilverjustJan 22, 20182 votes

In my experience, low elo games are less snowbally because people dont know how to end

LordGeovanniJan 22, 20182 votes

Techincally the game should be balanced around silver and gold players and who ever is higher should then be as the say the top level of play by being more skilled with characters that are supposed to be just good at silver and gold.

AirKingNeoJan 21, 20183 votes

You're saying PtA, a keystone worse than Fervor, shouldn't be buffed?

League isn't balanced around the top percent of players. Otherwise Garen would be viable and ruining bronze. Otherwise Jayce wouldn't be broken for 2 years.

AbyssionKnightJan 21, 20188 votes

If all the op keystones are nerfed, why would you buff PtA? If they nerfed appropriately, PtA wouldn't need buffs at that point.

That's the entire point. We don't want to just buff everything and encourage more power creep in the game. Instead we want to undo the powercreep in the game.

AirKingNeoJan 21, 20182 votes

Because PtA is weaker than the balanced keystone.

TheShréktEffectJan 21, 20186 votes

PtA is fine, it's just overshadowed by other keystones, that's why it seems weak. What we should have is a general reduction in power, so we shouldn't buff weak things, but rather nerf the strong things. There is simply too much damage in the game right now, to the point where no thought or strategy is required, you can just steamroll your enemies with all this damage.

The Yetii RiderJan 22, 20182 votes

I shall praise the developers unironically.

Riot fixed a LOT of problems with the rune update, and people are quick to forget that.

The biggest offender of raw power, the keystone that was responsible for World's and for gimping pick strats, is now gone. Windspeakers Blessing is out of the game, and good riddance. The heal amp was never the issue, the armor and MR was. Now, ADCs don't get a free chunk of armor without building it. Lethality is much deadlier to them.

Electrocute is superior to Thunderlords in every way. It's in a roaming tree, it deals physical damage for AD champions, and the burst is higher, so it enables % missing health damage more quickly, which is an assassin's bread and butter.

Assassins simply WERE NOT PLAYED in season 7, and the fact that they find so much success now is a testament to Riot's balancing prowess.

DorkunedAurasJan 22, 20181 votes

Electrocute has a higher CD than Thunderlord's, it requires 3 unique damage sources which can be troublesome for some champs, and the burst has a slight delay on it, which is fully capable of messing up a % missing HP damage attack.

The Yetii RiderJan 22, 20181 votes

Can be troublesome for some characters. Mostly mages. Assassins auto attack all the time. They are encouraged to do so. Hell, Ekko's entire kit is based around getting 3 unique hits.

ChuShoeJan 22, 20181 votes

windspeakers was replaced by something even better; Aery

Not only is it good for heals and shields, but it's also good for damage.

I don't see what they "fixed", and really only see what they added and changed.

The Yetii RiderJan 22, 20181 votes

Summon: Aery does not give you armor and MR. It gives you a shield. Assassins can eat through shields. Case in point: Assassins are seeing play now. They weren't at all before.

koshkyraJan 22, 20182 votes

janna spamming maxed W for poke every 5 seconds

ya, janna deals 150 with her W and then takes 500 in response because she just put herself incredibly close to the enemy alistar/vayne and had to flash away because she is squishy as shit

AnateraJan 21, 20181 votes

Nah, the state of the game is obviously intended. Riot "tested it."

Sun Wu RyuumokuJan 21, 20181 votes

agree with most but

Scrolling through the boards recently I have hardly found a single thread praising the game developers unironically. I think that should tell you something, and if it doesn't, then may I suggest a crowbar to pull your heads out of your behinds and get to proper work.

this isn't a good argment mainly on this board

Plastic 5 ADCJan 21, 20181 votes

You want everything nerfed thats enjoyable right now.

You want adc's without escapes/any kind of self peel, and be mindless auto attack bots. You want CDR's to be high, so the game becomes slower paced You want assassins not being able to assassinate You want support not being able to support

TheShréktEffectJan 21, 20185 votes

Do you enjoy ADCs being able to 1v1 assassins with little effort and 3 shotting them before they even get close? Do you enjoy having half your base destroyed if one person on your team gets hit by a single spell on some 5-10s cooldown? Do you enjoy getting instantly outdamaged by a Zed who just finished his Duskblade after you spent 10 minutes beating his face in? Do you enjoy not being able to even damage an ADC because they get so many heals and shields from their support?

In my opinion there are very few things that are actually enjoyable about the game right now.

Power CosmicJan 21, 20181 votes

Lmao. Over the top, but mostly true from a player's perspective.

im greendragon 1Jan 21, 20181 votes

much agreed Braum

ShadowMan626Jan 22, 20181 votes

aww. Did someone lose?

AetherArisingJan 22, 20181 votes

Sorry bucko but riot left League to die for the most part. It's owned by Tencent who are situated in China, which is why Korea, China, and other eastern servers have actual advantages over NA, EUW, etc

You want a fun game that's 35+ mins long and not a 1-sided stomp? Sorry but they want to cater to Internet Cafes for quick addicting 15-minute-pubstomps.

The league of season6 and before is gone. It's more like a slightly longer Battlerite now. I can find some enjoyment from the game, but not nearly as much as when i first played on a friend's throwaway account 4+ years ago, in the room they re-purposed into a game room (used to be an office). Those were the fockin' days man.

Only reason to play ranked rn is to grind to gold while every game is a the equivilent of a snow peaked mountain. Calm at the top, until a LIIIITTLE bit of snow gets shaken.. boom, avalanche