So why was Death's Dance buffed exactly?

TheShréktEffect·Jul 3, 2017·43 votes·2,385 views

This is not a rant, by the way.

Okay maybe a little bit.

Seriously though, what was the reason for buffing Death's Dance so much? Don't you guys at Riot think it's a little overtuned? I just played a game where the enemy , who wasn't even that fed, in all honesty, managed to survive 3-4 people focusing him in a teamfight, under tower, thanks to . Seriously, DD was his only lifesteal item. Don't you think that's a bit ridiculous?

As far as I know, there was no reason to buff , so there should be no reason not to nerf it, right? This is getting out of hand.

45 Comments

Big LincolnJul 3, 201737 votes

cus nobody bought it

even though ohmwrecker continues to be avoided zzz

Dani El PezgloboJul 3, 20171 votes

i already buy it pre buff with fiora

BlakiepugJul 3, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxI2E9hV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-03T16:44:40.024+0000)

cus nobody bought it

even though ohmwrecker continues to be avoided zzz

I've always seen lots of people use Death's Dance even before it was buffed. I think this is similar to when Riot buffed BotRK. The item isn't as popular as they expect it to be and so they buff it to try and increase its usage rates without really looking at how good the item is in its current state. Sure maybe it's not built every game, but does it need to be?

ForeverLaxxJul 3, 20173 votes

In Riot's eyes? Yes, it needs to be bought every game or it's not worth having in the shop. Of course, this is asinine, naive, and short-sighted but when has Riot been anything else?

AseraanJul 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

In Riot's eyes? Yes, it needs to be bought every game or it's not worth having in the shop. Of course, this is asinine, naive, and short-sighted but when has Riot been anything else?

if we looking at this point hat why the fk is omwrecker still in the game WHO BUYS THAT EVER?

Cosmic WarperJul 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I've always seen lots of people use Death's Dance even before it was buffed. I think this is similar to when Riot buffed BotRK. The item isn't as popular as they expect it to be and so they buff it to try and increase its usage rates without really looking at how good the item is in its current state. Sure maybe it's not built every game, but does it need to be?

not the same case. Bork before the buffs was a garbage item and was almost never used. death's dance pre buffs was still used

BlakiepugJul 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cosmic Warper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxI2E9hV,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2017-07-04T08:01:11.616+0000)

not the same case. Bork before the buffs was a garbage item and was almost never used. death's dance pre buffs was still used

It was definitely not garbage. I bought it all the time and it saved me from several loses against heavy HP building opponents. It was very strong before getting buffed, just no one used it so no one realized how strong it was. This is pretty similar to what is happening with Death's Dance.

Cosmic WarperJul 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It was definitely not garbage. I bought it all the time and it saved me from several loses against heavy HP building opponents. It was very strong before getting buffed, just no one used it so no one realized how strong it was. This is pretty similar to what is happening with Death's Dance.

"very strong" lmfao ok that's why no one in higher elo built it right? you're like some guru who discovered it was strong when no one else did?

ThilmerJul 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I've always seen lots of people use Death's Dance even before it was buffed.

I bought it like crazy in any bruisers. When combined with ninja tabi, the amount of damage reduction made any champion into a tank by building only offensive ítems.

Making the "bleed passive" twice as powerful was a dumb idea.

MunchCrunchLunchJul 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxI2E9hV,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-07-03T16:44:40.024+0000)

cus nobody bought it

even though ohmwrecker continues to be avoided zzz

because it is designed as a niche item.

a dps adc will always buy bt if both are evenly balanced because BT gives a shield and more lifesteal.

a dps melee like fiora will buy hydra. most dps melee buy lifesteal that gives other stuff. like bork or hydra . yasuo just buys bt as well. or qss for the active

the item was balanced. technically speaking. it should be useful on ad casters. but its not because of how spell vamp works. its too shity to buy on aoe damage. and assassins don't buy it because lethality and percent armor pen is more important and its not a really defensvie item as their damage is burst and they don't be doing shit in a fight to heal up after they blow their load.

the item is left with pretty much just graves as a user. why? graves autos are aoe but still count as lifeseteal. also graves are close ranged and needs to survive. he does burst damage so he likes the ad and the cdr. but he also does aoe damage. even thougt its shitty. his Q is very large aoe that hits many targets unlike most aoe in the game that is much smaller range. he doesnt buy BT because it doesn't give CDR. also hes always taking dps not burst because sitting in front getting poked.

bt is much better against burst because of instant lifesteal and the initial shield. while death dance is better for champs that are damage dealing want lifesteal. are casters need the CDR but also are somewhat tanky so they don't just die before they lifesteal up the damage.

leaves just graves in a balanced state of the item.

but they decided to make it good for many champs. its op now.

Big LincolnJul 4, 20171 votes

i'll show you a niche item

MunchCrunchLunchJul 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WxI2E9hV,comment-id=000100020000,timestamp=2017-07-04T06:51:35.476+0000)

i'll show you a niche item

there is a difference between a niche item and one that has never been used.

aspects1Jul 4, 20171 votes

Graves

FantasySniperJul 3, 20178 votes

It wasn't picked up as often back then. There's actually a combination of factors that made it even more powerful.

7.9
+10 AD, and +15% on the stagger.
Tank items gutted.
ADC items generally buffed.
7.11
Ninja Tabi basic attack resistance nerfed.
BotRK lifesteal reduced. (Making DD better by comparison)
Assassins have been steadily becoming less and less relevant.
Supports have had their fair share of changes that indirectly buff ADCs.

People only just recently realized the power of the item, so lo and behold it's getting abused by the meta.

RainbowIceeJul 4, 20171 votes

Also tanks have lost a lot of damage too both kit and item wise, making it easier tbh for drain tanks to stay in the game this includes anyone that can stay in a fight due to draining like Draven . ATM i believe only an ADC can kill an ADC or a high burst mage like Syndra

IncognonymousJul 3, 20177 votes

It was a little niche, but it wasn't weak where it was warranted.

Nomad SolJul 3, 20175 votes

Cause it was meddler's baby and no one was building it so better make it broken to make him feel better about himself

Synnx7Jul 4, 20175 votes

Cuz riot "balance team"

SakuraveilJul 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Cuz riot "balance team"

Meanwhile, yesterday i respawned as syndra with 2,1k life, walked out of fountain like 2 meters, saw a draven, died by a single autoattack. I still didnt could figure out how he did 2,1k with one single aa.

Synnx7Jul 4, 20171 votes

thats why I left to HoTs. No right click = dead over there. diverse maps, tema comps, everything u could ask from a modern moba. LoL is outdated and destroyed by an incompetent company who should've went bankrupt long time ago

TEA Nietzsche Jul 3, 20173 votes

Only very few champions used to build it, actually when you think about it only Illaoi. Some experimented with it (Fiora, Riven, Yasuo) but it just wasn't good enough so they eventually dropped it (Yas for BORK, Fiora for BT and Riven for GB).

Now it got buffed and Draven + DD is super strong, Riven +DD is strong and Illaoi relies on it to be viable. Other ADCs/Yasuo tend to buy BT or BORK while Fiora builds it occasionally.

So overall there are still very few champions actually building DD and only Draven has it as core while being super strong.

SpecterVonBarenJul 4, 20171 votes

Not even Illaoi gave a shit about it before the buff, the only person I ever saw build it was Graves.

TEA Nietzsche Jul 4, 20171 votes

Graves used to build it quite a while ago, but when he was meta recently he was all about that PD/BC stuff. Now he is built with BORK.

I am pretty sure that Illaoi built it but not 100% - if she didn't build it then nobody did. I guess the buffs really were necessary although they might've been a tad too strong.

SpecterVonBarenJul 4, 20171 votes

I think the problem was illaoi did really want it but she had to get durability items first or else she'd die before getting any benefit from it and by the time she could buy it games would be over most of the time.

doiminat0r3600Jul 4, 20172 votes

It's not Death's dance's fault. Nobody bought deaths dance. So riot decided to shake things up a bit or something along that line.

Draven was fine, then they needlessly buffed him. His synnergy with Deaths dance was already strong but the buffs made it a "why wouldn't you" item in his build.

The buffs to draven and deaths dance in the same patch is what makes it such a pain.

AwesomeGuyDjJul 4, 20172 votes

I think its a draven problem, if you look at winrates of DD draven VS BT draven they're like a 1-2% difference.

JJI744Jul 4, 20172 votes

Mainly because the item was aweful and not being bought. Hell, even now with extra AD and double the damage to bleed, its still not a staple item. Its basically not being bought outside a small handful of champs (OK, real talk, its Draven almost exclusively) who work a little too well with the item.

zxinferxzJul 4, 20171 votes

Riven Fiora , who happen to be among the most broken top laners right now... Graves likes it very much, too. :thinking:

JJI744Jul 4, 20171 votes

As I said, it was buffed massively, and your still looking at it only being popular on a small number of champs, with only one really rushing it consistantly.

zxinferxzJul 5, 20171 votes

Maybe, just maybe, most champions don't happen to have enough physical damage dealing effects to actually abuse it, so they don't bother grabbing it, when they can grab any of the other broken items like PD, solari+GSP+KV?

EssychuJul 3, 20171 votes

it was buffed so melee bruisers could build it more but then draven remember hes an adc and everything is abusable by adcs so he picked it up and now its pretty strong.

GhxzttJul 3, 20171 votes

Legit cannot play Draven due to either him being banned every game or some FOTM Draven steals it just to abuse the item on him.

hhaavviikkJul 3, 20171 votes

I wish they would just nerf lifesteal, it's way to strong as it is, burst has become neccesary to even deal with ADC's, can't poke em down, can't dps em down because they heal for 300-500 health a hit, I remember when poke comps were viable, now the ADC just AA's 4 times to get all health back

BabyNaixJul 3, 20171 votes

Are those eyes on death dance? Is he a darkin 0.o

SlashStrikerJul 3, 20171 votes

Now it does what it meant to do. Delay the damage so you don't get one-shotted without being able to react. Before you can barely feel this effect. Most people did prefer Bloodthirster over DD but IMO DD is way better than Thirster

Draven on other hand does shit tons of damage and ain't all that squishy

SanKakUJul 4, 20171 votes

Um, how about just make it like 50 percent less effective for ranged champions? Give or take a couple dozen percentage points or so.

rtbf221651412Jul 4, 20171 votes

But ADC's are tanks obviously and life steal < spell vamp. Also, spell vamp op because attack speed with AP.

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

aspects1Jul 4, 20171 votes

besides graves, no one built it for core

AnagsJul 4, 20171 votes

And he's still pretty garbage even after its buff

aspects1Jul 4, 20171 votes

hes not garbage urgot is garbage

ElikainJul 4, 20171 votes

By looking at the item's changelist history, in patch 7.9 the passive effect from 15% damage taken as bleeding was buffed to 30%. The reason was being that it's a lifesteal item that prevents burst and 15% was just a small value, given how much damage you can already take.

Also, it wasn't a widely bought item for any class that it's meant for so the reason for that was also to give Marksmen diversity in their itemizations. I don't think that the 5+ damage bonus is the real issue here so i'm intentionally glossing over that fact. The lifesteal on the item hasn't been changed for all i can tell so it's natural that Draven should be able to maximize its potential, given that his AAs are pretty strong. Graves too.

**But, when it comes to lifesteal in general, i think we should put a cap on how much champions can actually do this. Here are a few propositions: **

Put a cap on lifesteal in terms of % max HP

This could make tanker targets more durable when it comes to lifesteal (true users of Death's Dance) and have squishier targets little less overbearing in the face of danger (melee ranges).

Have a certain number of attacks that lifesteal before it has to recharge (like an energyzed attack)

The idea behind this is to reduce sustain and make it windowed than the general "i hit, you bleed, i heal" stat. Because with a lot of AD, crit and AS, just one item can go overboard with some aiding through masteries and even runes. These "vampiric attacks" can't overheal you (unless you bought BT to recharge a shield), which means that the attacks will only be expended if your health (that it can restore) is equal or greater than the heal value. This is so that you don't waste them for overhealing. Charging these attacks could be tied to a timer or a number of attacks + movement (Shiv, RFC, Warlord's effect).