"She's not finished and I'm going to work on her to get her to a better state gameplay and thematically"
a month later with no communication
first change is a huge mana nerf
nice
DJ Siamak2 votesShe got buffed and you're saying she's gotten nothing but nerfs? Rofl.
Abyssphere5 votes[{quoted}](name=DJ Siamak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmBGufkI,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-01-17T15:34:51.425+0000)
She got buffed and you're saying she's gotten nothing but nerfs? Rofl.
They literally never said that.
Stashu said he was going to continue working on her to make her more fun and thematically fitting long before Christmas. He also said he'd get back to us on the forums. He's said nothing since and the first word we get on Cassiopeia is "Actually na we don't really want her to be viable".
Long Dong Wukong4 votes"Actually na we don't really want her to be viable".
She is viable and a very good character in every elo. She's even* better* in high elo. Tell us again how she's not viable. You not liking her doesn't make her magically terrible.
http://www.lolking.net/champions/cassiopeia®ion=all&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked#statistics
Abyssphere3 votes[{quoted}](name=Long Dong Wukong,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nmBGufkI,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T16:29:44.181+0000)
She is viable and a very good character in every elo. She's even* better* in high elo. Tell us again how she's not viable. You not liking her doesn't make her magically terrible.
http://www.lolking.net/champions/cassiopeia®ion=all&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked#statistics
I never said she wasn't viable. I clearly meant she wouldn't be after these nerfs. Learn to read.
Long Dong Wukong1 votesNo, she'll still be viable. She just won't be overbuffed horse shit.
The Queen Viper2 votesAs a champion she's just as viable as Nasus and Poppy are... if you teammates know how to play and they intentionally want to drag out/stall the game for you, you should be fine.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Abyssphere4 votesHe already succeeded in that. Cass is very fun to play right now and fulfills a unique playstyle which is currently not occupied by any other champion in the game. The problem that everyone had was that cass, while fun, was underpowered after her rework and someone needed to fine tune her numbers.
Stashu himself was NOT of the opinion that he already succeeded. Most of the feedback and the horrendous play rate said he didn't. He thought he had more work to do AFTER 4.21 hit, so "He probably stopped because he already succeeded with 4.21" doesn't make sense. If he thought he was done he wouldn't have said he wasn't (unless he was lying). And if he changed his mind, he should have informed us rather than left us waiting.
And don't speak for other people. Her being horrendously underpowered was very much a problem with the rework but it was not the only problem people had. Her gameplay was the primary problem.
ChargeItDownMid1 votes[deleted]
Abyssphere2 votesThe thing you have to realize is that all of the problems people had with her were due to them mistakenly attributing the problems to gameplay and not numbers. Her numbers were really bad and unrewarding which caused people to assume that the entire rework made cass unrewarding. It is clear now that is not the case and people simply made mistakes with their assessment of post-rework cass.
Well, I'm still attributing the problem to gameplay even when she's wrecking so...
The Queen Viper2 votes{quoted} Cass is very fun to play right now and fulfills a unique playstyle which is currently not occupied by any other champion in the game.
Um, actually there are couple of champions already who share this similar "turtle and do nothing almost the whole game, but suddenly when the late game comes, you can start facerolling..." ... Nasus and Poppy comes to mind.
Long Dong Wukong2 votesShe got overbuffed, what's confusing about this to you?
Get the fuck over it
Scarborough Fair1 votes[deleted]
Long Dong Wukong2 votesNah, she has something like a 54% win rate, so I don't really have sympathy on people whining about mana nerfs. Her damage isn't even getting touched.
She's a really good champion, there's just remnants of the bitch squad still around that just can't play her new kit for whatever reason.
If anyone's the autist, it's you trying to rally a small minority of whiners to spam a forum with threads about potential nerfs to a champion that is currently very well off.
So you have a nice day and hopefully enjoy your 54% win rate champion that's oh so unviable
The Queen Viper1 votesYet she still rather sucks... not only that, but she cannot even be played on mid anymore so you need to take her to top lane instead. -.- , sure, there she does just fine, like any other champion that are ranged instead of melee.
Long Dong Wukong1 votesNo, she doesn't suck. You suck with her.
No, she does still go mid, you just can't play her mid.
The champion is borderline broken, this is not up for debate
The Queen Viper2 votesCool story bro... and you don't even play Cass. -.-
Go troll somewhere else.
Long Dong Wukong1 votesPeople letting you know that you're the problem not the champion isn't trolling, sorry.
The Queen Viper2 votesDon't know about other people, since I was talking about you.
Long Dong Wukong1 votesOh you poor child, desperately trying to find something to argue about =\
You have a nice day and good luck on your practice with Cassiopeia
The Queen Viper2 votescool story bro ... maybe people could take you seriously if you would actually play Cass.
But since you don't, nope.
Sightless662 votesShe may need more changes to get her into a better state thematically, but her most recent buffs did add a ton of power and made her arguably overpowered. That's something that needs more immediate attention, and is much easier and quicker to address.
Good design fixes take time. Balance changes can't always wait for those.
Mathbalnase2 votesCommunicating with the community doesn't take much time, either. Even a 'Yes, I'm still here and still working on it' would be an improvement over her current state.
Sightless661 votesEven a 'Yes, I'm still here and still working on it' would be an improvement over her current state.
They've never done that much, and when they have, it doesn't ever really help. If you remember the Skarner rework, you may remember that after the first one, they included a note in the following patch notes saying that they were still working on him. That pissed a lot of people off to no end because they saw it as insulting and pointless. I'd put money on that kind of statement made about Cass just opening up more rage from most people. "If you know it's a problem, why the fuck didn't you fix it now you incompetent fucks?"
In my experience, communication on unsuccessful reworks that doesn't contain new ideas just ticks people off. I'd personally like it, and I know you would, but from Riot's perspective, it's a risk.
Mathbalnase1 votesThey've never done that much, and when they have
That's a bit of a contradiction, no? (I didn't really follow the Skarner rework, so I can't speak to what happened, there)
In my experience, communication on unsuccessful reworks that doesn't contain new ideas just ticks people off. I'd personally like it, and I know you would, but from Riot's perspective, it's a risk.
And I would agree with you, here, if it were not for Stashu's explicit promise of further communication and consultation with the community.
The 'heartbeat' style communication I referenced would likely piss a lot of people off, yes, but only because even it falls far short of what those people have been promised. They have a reasonable expectation that Riot, and Stashu in particular, would, should, and will be communicating and consulting with the community on this as-yet-unsuccessful rework.
Sightless662 votesThat's a bit of a contradiction, no?
It's not a contradiction. It's saying that they have done it, but rarely, and never to beneficial effect. People have never been made less angry by any amount of communication. You can even see it early in the Cassiopeia rework. He communicated more than Rioters have ever communicated on a rework before, and people were still pissed off (even before it turned out that they weren't getting what they wanted from the poison changes).
As for the Skarner rework, there was that exact same promise made. Pretty much no different. And then, when communication happened, people got pissed because all that could be said was "we're working on it and we have these ideas" and then people get mad. I mean, what are people going to say. "We dislike the current E-focused pattern". "We're trying to make her poisons a larger part of the kit". "Can you tell us exactly how and what you're doing and how it will fulfill our every fantasy?" "No, because we're still testing things." "BURN EVERYTHING!". Same thing that happened with Skarner. Giving people the information that you aren't finished with something, won't be for a while, and that it won't just be a complete revert of the thing they didn't love just pisses people off.
More communication doesn't fix the fundamental problem of not liking the rework. Until it is fixed, people will be angry, and they won't consider it fixed until they see a kit (strong numbers included) in front of them.
Mathbalnase1 votesIt's not a contradiction. It's saying that they have done it, but rarely, and never to beneficial effect.
The words you'd be looking for, then, would be 'have almost never'. Not 'have never', unqualified.
People have never been made less angry by any amount of communication. You can even see it early in the Cassiopeia rework. He communicated more than Rioters have ever communicated on a rework before, and people were still pissed off (even before it turned out that they weren't getting what they wanted from the poison changes).
The vast majority of the communication, such as it was, happened early after the rework's live release. Not early in the rework. What communication there was before the live release produced no perceptible effect whatsoever.
More communication doesn't fix the fundamental problem of not liking the rework. Until it is fixed, people will be angry, and they won't consider it fixed until they see a kit (strong numbers included) in front of them.
The fundamental problem is not 'not liking the rework'. A rework that many people (most of the players who played cass before the rework, from what I've seen) is a product of the real problem. If you ignore your players during the planning of a rework, then ignore them during the testing, and then dismiss them after release (see: most post-release changes ignoring criticism or actually moving in the opposite direction), the idea that many of them will 'not like' the end product should come as no surprise whatsoever.
Sightless662 votesNot 'have never', unqualified.
"That much" is a qualification relating to the number of times they have done it. "They've never done that much," says that in the past, they have never used this as their main strategy. You're taking much in the sense of "they've haven't put in that much effort" while I'm using it as "they've used other strategies much more". Both are valid ways to read the sentence, so I should have made it more clear.
The vast majority of the communication, such as it was, happened early after the rework's live release. Not early in the rework.
Yes, and more changes were promised, the changes to make her DoT a bigger part of her kit, which ended up with the damage amp on her E. However, even when these changes were promised and people didn't know the exact details of what would be released, they were still angry. That's what I'm talking about. Any communication that occurs right now will be taken poorly unless it consists of "here is the full list of changes we intend to make, with numbers included". Anything short of that will produce no positive reaction.
If you ignore your players during the planning of a rework, then ignore them during the testing, and then dismiss them after release (see: most post-release changes ignoring criticism or actually moving in the opposite direction), the idea that many of them will 'not like' the end product should come as no surprise whatsoever.
This isn't surprising. It's also kind of my entire point. People dislike the rework right now, and they get the feeling that they've been ignored in the past. Because of that, there is no communication that Riot can make right now that will make anyone happier or inspire any trust. Because this rework exists in its current state, communication won't be effective at anything. The only thing it could do is allow them to hear the community's opinions, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that the community's opinions have been expressed enough times Riot can find them if they want to.
I'm not saying it's unjustified that people are annoyed at the rework. I want to make that clear. I'm saying that given that they are annoyed, no communication except "the problem is completely fixed and we can prove it to you through these details" will be taken well. Communication would have been nice at multiple earlier stages. Right now, it's too late. It's not going to do anything.
Mathbalnase1 votes'They've never done that, much' refers to frequency. 'They've never done that much' refers to intensity. Rephrased, it could read 'they've never done as much as that'. Commas are important.
But that's not really important to the discussion, so moving on:
The announcement of the damage amp on E left people (still) angry because it did not address their concerns. The complaints were (for the vast majority) not that her DoTs were weak, but that her DoT abilities were (and still are) weak. Putting a damage amp on E doesn't change that. And so people who were complaining about it weren't appeased.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. Even when Stashu has claimed to make a change specifically to incorporate the concerns of the community, what he's actually implemented has missed the point entirely. That change was pointed out as missing the point entirely before it went live. Then it went live anyway, and by all appearances Stashu still believes that it addresses the problem.
I think we're almost in agreement, really. You say that communication at this point is worthless. I'd say that communication of the sort and quality we've had so far is likely worthless. But then, I'm not really impressed with the sort and quality of communication we've had (a combination of communicating at the community and ignoring/missing the points we've been trying to make).
I'm still hopeful that, if Riot significantly stepped up their game with regards to quality of communication that the community would be receptive and...minimally toxic.
Sightless661 votesI don't think anything they do to step up the quality of communication at this point will matter unless it contains the exact specifications of a new rework people want. Anything else isn't going to help.
The announcement of the damage amp on E left people (still) angry because it did not address their concerns.
I'm not talking about the announcement of the damage amp. That came afterwards. I'm talking about after the rework released, when the damage amp wasn't announced, and they were talking about people's concerns with the recently released rework. Even at that point, when they were saying things that fit with the community's ideas (stuff about her having a poison mage identity and needing more of her power to be in DoT and things), people are angry, because the only important point was that they still had a rework they didn't like. It was literally the best communication they've ever had about any rework, and it meant nothing at the time. People weren't soothed even slightly.
As soon as the bad rework got released, appeasing the community with communication became virtually impossible. The bad rework completely eclipses anything good communication might do.
Even the stuff you said about Riot ignoring/missing your points kind of convinces me of this too. People don't just want communication, they want the kit that has all the points and elements they want. Anything short of that will be insufficient, and will give no good will from the community.
Mathbalnase2 votesBefore announcing the damage amp change, Stashu admitted the problem of too much power being concentrated in E relative to her other skills.
Before releasing the damage amp change, Stashu described it as addressing the problem of too much power being concentrated in her E.
After releaseing the damage amp change, Stashu reiterated that he believed the problem of too much power being concentrated in her E to be addressed by the damage amp.
At every stage, the community described the problem as not enough power in her non-E abilities (and too much in her E), and (for the vast majority of cases including, iirc, several to which Stashu replied as described above) NOT as not enough power in her DoTs.
The bad rework is a problem. The bad communication is making that problem a lot worse.
'The best communication [we've] ever had' doesn't mean shit if that communication is still BAD.
Sightless661 votesBefore announcing the damage amp change, Stashu admitted the problem of too much power being concentrated in E relative to her other skills.
Before releasing the damage amp change, Stashu described it as addressing the problem of too much power being concentrated in her E.
Yes, and even he described it this way, people were still just as angry (again, before he announced the damage amp). Even when people didn't know that the damage amp was going to be on the E, and they thought that Stashu was saying things they agreed with (too much power concentrated in E, not enough in non-E), they were still very angry. He was pretty much saying the same things that the community was, and people thought that he was taking power out of the E, and they still hated him just as much as they did when he wasn't talking at all.
The bad rework is the problem, and I think it's causing every other problem. I don't honestly think bad communication is making the problem worse. I think a complete lack of communication or incredibly disrespectful / actively insulting communication might make it worse (and I mean actual insults) would make the problem worse, but I don't think there is anything he could say that would appease anyone. So long as the problem remains, nothing said will fix it.
After releaseing the damage amp change, Stashu reiterated that he believed the problem of too much power being concentrated in her E to be addressed by the damage amp.
That kind of looks to me like you're disagreeing with what was done. You dislike that the amp was put on the E. I mean, what could he have said at that point to make you any slight bit happier with this change coming out? Is there actually something, short of "I'll take it away now"?
Something I should ask is what exactly you want him to communicate that he hasn't. What would you like? Is there something that you would like him to communicate that isn't "here is a list of changes"? What would make you happy with it?
Mathbalnase1 votesIf he said "I was wrong, the damage amp doesn't actually move power back into Q/W" I would be less upset. It wouldn't make me like the change, but it would at least resolve the issue of factually inaccurate statements that make me and others question whether he's communicating in good faith.
What he could communicate now that would make me happy? I don't have much hope that anything he'll say will do that (I liked the old poison-and-dance-away playstyle that was gutted in the rework in favour of mandatory E-spam), but here are some things that could make me less frustrated:
His current thoughts on what the remaining problems with the rework are, if any. His current thoughts on possible solutions to those problems, if any. What points, if any, he would be open to input on from the community. What directions the products of such input will not move the rework in, if any.
Sightless661 votes"I was wrong, the damage amp doesn't actually move power back into Q/W"
So, you'd be happy with him saying that he made mistake and didn't give people what they were asking for, but he isn't going to change it? Because that's all that statement says. I can't imagine people being happy with that. I can see the threads now. "Stashu admitted he fucked up but won't fix it. WTF RIOT!?!?". I think it would be received terribly unless it was a way to lead into a new rework. Which would obviously be great, but I'm trying to say that nothing less than a new rework will really go over well (although, as I'll get to later, I do have to admit that one of your options might make me have to reconsider that a bit.)
but here are some things that could make me less frustrated:
Frustrated is a better word. That is what I was trying to go for.
His current thoughts on what the remaining problems with the rework are, if any.
This has been kind of communicated though. He's listed things which he thinks haven't gone well, and some of the reasons why they haven't gone great. Out of the 4 things you've presented, this is the only one I'd say that he actually has done, to at least a decent degree. Putting it all into one big huge post might help, but I'm not sure anything new could really be said, and that kind of post would disappear and new ones would be demanded within a couple weeks (of course, that isn't a good enough reason by itself to say that this kind of post shouldn't be done).
His current thoughts on possible solutions to those problems, if any.
This option has had terrible results in the past. Talk about other options that sound nice, and people get attached to them, even if they have huge design flaws. Alternatively, you propose something that isn't amazing, and people freak out. It's the kind of thing that ends up hindering discussion a lot. I don't think it's a good idea for an ongoing rework. I will say that maybe it could be done well, but it's been tried a few times in the past, so I'm not sure that Riot can handle that kind of discussion in a productive way.
What points, if any, he would be open to input on from the community.
This one would be very nice, but it's kind of hard to do unless you have something to actually ask them specifically about. You kind of need a design or decent ideas for design changes before you can get input on specifics regarding the designs. It's another thing that only really works great once you have something on a new rework to show someone.
What directions the products of such input will not move the rework in, if any.
This one I actually do like. Saying what you don't think is a good option and why helps give a much clearer view of the design process. It does carry a little risk. I can look back to the Skarner rework when they did this, and while it was a bit nice to have, it did provoke a LOT of rage from a pretty large number of people because they were told they wouldn't get exactly what they wanted. Still though, this one is a good idea, and I have to admit that it's something I didn't consider.
DudeFuck1 votesThe e mana increase is almost pointless, and the Q mana cost increase isnt noticeable until later levels. and by that time youll have tear. Whats the issue?
Hetchy1 votesThere's no way the Sona screechers will make room for you.
Social Justice 11 votesCass is actually broken if you knew better you'd be quiet about it in case they nerf her
The Queen Viper2 votesShe's only broken when you reach 40+ minutes in the game... just like Nasus, or any champion with a full build for that matter. -.-
To be honest, she's rather OK/meh when it comes to her power-level ... but her passive is still really trash.
Byakuya Kuchiki1 votesffs. Cassiopeia is OP late game if YOU're any good with her. She's the best AP 1v1er in the game (besides Veigar because well infiscaling +late game= 1 shot) a good Cass will also basically have a Malphite ult but instead of a knockup a free stun on not too long of a cd. her passive lets her have over 1k AP. and her scalings aren't bad
oh and also second highest win rate http://www.lolking.net/champions/