Poacher's Knife is undesirable because it's too limited (smite enemy jungler, help with poaching)

Duke Anax··1 votes·1,036 views

The biggest Problem with Poacher's is, that it is only usable in very specific condition, that makes it risky to take.

item 3715 and item 3706 are usefull in any champion fight throughout the game. item 3713 can be used oin any jungle camp and even for waveclear in lane. There is no point in the game where those three are useless.

item 3711 only work when you can access the enemy jungle, and it doesn't help you do the job like the other items, it only rewards you for being able to do so in the first place.

But when they push you out it's useless. And when you already bought the stat upgrade it's difficult to change the smite again.

So I have two suggestions:

1. Smite the enemy jungler. Smite can be used on the enemy jungler (anyone that has smite) stealing their buffs and dealing true damage.

Poachers is for counter jungling, so If you can't get his camps, you can hinder him more directly. Stealing his buffs gives a different duelling flavour to the other two blades and it's more in tune with the idea of Poaching.

2. Speed buff on Smiting There should be another speed buff immediately when you smite (enemy camp or jungler) in addition to the one you get for the kill. In that case the cooldown will be 45s.

That way you can still escape with the buff, when you fail to kill, or you can stay for the kill and then escape.

6 Comments

Cale0171 votes

Or you take it when you're playing a champion who naturally counterjungles well, which is actually a lot more useful than you're giving credit for. The ability to easily slide in and out of the enemy jungle while taking their camps may not seem like much )what's a camp here and there right?) but a seasoned jungler can really feel the difference. Junglers tend to run on certain timestamps that they've put in place for themselves, more specifically with their mains.

ex. "By minute 4 I should be fighting X camp and by minute 7 I should have items Y and Z built, and by minute 12 I can see if lane A is prepped for a gank, if not I can keep jungling so that by minute 15 I have item B ready which will help when I head over to wait for a gank near lane C."

Stuff like that. Once a jungler has lost one or two camps to the enemy jungler, the gap between them starts becoming more pronounced. Keep in mind that when counterjungled, the victim is actually falling twice as far behind the enemy jungler. First off, the enemy jungler has one extra camp and all the gold and xp that goes with it. The jungler who lost it is denied that gold and that xp, meaning that they're negative from where they would have been by the same amount that the enemy jungler is now positive from where they would have been.

Excessive counterjungling can outright force a jungler out of their jungle, making them a bit more gank happy by trying to get kills and assists to make up for it, which can give a potent counterjungler even more access to their camps. Instead of just swiping a quick raptor or Krugs camp, they might get vision of both of their buffs to deny them their strongest source of gold and xp. When the countered jungler tries to head back into their jungle after a failed, or simply fruitless, gank they find themselves falling further and further behind.

In addition, strong counterjungling can also contribute more directly to map awareness by heavily warding the enemy jungle. Knowing where the enemy jungler is and where they're heading can tell lanes when they can safely start pushing harder, and when to possibly back off while another lane starts pressing forwards. Seeing the blue side jungler on his way up from wolves? Bottom lane starts going crazy. Jungler freaks and starts heading to the bottom lane? Let that top lane go ham.

By counterjungling you put the enemy jungler at a slowly increasing disadvantage, which affects their abilities during teamfights as well, you provide vision of the enemy jungle which allows your team to better organize for pushes or simply appplying pressure, and going into the late game you have an easier time of watching enemy movements in their own jungle, essentially making them afraid to venture out too far.

You really underestimate the power of counter jungling, and don't quite seem to fully understand it's purpose. The point of counter jungling is not necessarily to kill the enemy jungler in their jungle. It's to take their jungle from them to set them behind. Make them waste time. Sure, if you have vision of them and you see them at low health trying to fight their red buff swoop in and finish them off. But the main focus of counterjungling is not to hunt for those kills actively, it's to weaken the other jungler and kill them only if the opportunity presents itself.

Unless you're Rek'Sai and you can just dick around in blind spots near camps and wait for the right time to Q E knockup Q Hydra E for the kill and smite their camp along the way.

Cale0171 votes

Ah, forgot to mention:

Generally speaking, champions who are powerful counterjunglers don't need help clearing their own jungle. Those other smites are there to provide tanks a bit more ability to clear, mages a bit more ability to sustain, and bruisers a bit more ability to stick to targets. But junglers who are highly skilled at counterjungling generally have kits that allow them to survive their jungle just fine on their own, freeing that extra ability up for one that accents their abilities in the enemy jungle.

Personally the only change I might make to the Poacher's Knife would be having the smite possibly deal increased damage in the enemy jungle, making it take priority over their smite in their own jungle so that you don't still lose a possible camp steal during a duel under blue buff because their twitch reflexes were just slightly better than yours. I think it'd fit thematically, even if it'd be a bit hard to balance.

Duke Anax1 votes

Not sure what to do with this response.

I have no idea why you felt the need to explain counter jungling. There is no question about the if, how or why of it.

My point is Poachers knive doesn't contribute to counter jungling. If you can only take it when you are already doing well, because you are ahead, or have the kit for it, you can do just as well with it and would benefit more from one of the other smites.

The problem comes when you meet resistance, or if your team falls behind, then Poacher's becomes useless. The other three don't.

Cale0171 votes

Poacher's Knife DOES contribute to counter jungling. It gives extra gold, further increasing the gap you're putting between yourself and the enemy jungler, and it gives an escape option so that you can't be caught out at a lower health than you might want to by letting you quickly dash away. Or if you're staying healthy, quickly dash to the next camp if you're feeling saucy to take that one as well before running out. The extra gold and the movement speed buff incentivize counterjungling more while giving you the means to use guerilla style hit and run tactics about it.

If your team falls behind, chances are the enemy jungler isn't spending much time in his jungle because he's applying pressure to the lanes. The Poacher's Knife lets you punish his absence by making sure your allies are playing safe where possible, and using those moments to dive into his jungle while he isn't there to help yourself catch back up. Plus when he goes back into his own jungle to pick up buffs, he'll find that they're gone and that, once again, he's been wasting his time.

None of the other smites help when your team is meeting resistance or falling behind. Stalker's Blade is only useful for chasing, or if someone went and dived your team and you don't want them to get away. But anyone who builds Stalker's Blade likely already has a kit that gives them a lot of mobility options and so the slow is just a small added bit of CC. Blasting Smite doesn't even affect enemy champions, and Challenging Smite is only really useful on AA focused junglers, and isn't doing anything to help you come back from meeting resistance. It helps a jungler snowball, not so much catch up, by adding to kill potential. Trailblazer's smite can be useful for pushing a wave I suppose, but it isn't going to do much to help a champion who's meeting enemy resistance in any way.

For example, a jungle Shyvana only really has two options: Poacher's or Skirmisher's. She benefits pretty solidly from the extra damage and the reduced taken damage of a Challenging Smite, but in all honesty she's going to be dealing more than enough damage of her own not to need the extra true damage burn. She doesn't need Chilling Smite because her W's MS increase is more than enough, and she's got her dragon form's leap if she needs to get on someone right away. Blasting Smite is half useless on her, she has no mana and doesn't need half of it's sustain. However, she's got an MS boosting ability that synergizes well with the boost on Poacher's Knife, and she has a potent dueling kit so when diving into the enemy's jungle, even if she gets caught by them she still has a pretty high chance of walking away with the kill either way. So in all honesty, the ability to roam around the enemy's jungle with that increased movement speed is simply wonderful on her, and lets her transition her role as a lane bully into the jungle by making her already potent counterjungling abilities more so. The entire point of a Poacher's Knife is to make it so that you aren't meeting up with any resistance by significantly weakening the enemy jungler, which is why I explained what counterjungling is and why it makes Poacher's a good item.

None of the smites do anything to help someone who's meeting resistance. Only two of them even affect champions at all, one of them is a slow that might save your life if you're getting pushed, but if you're using it to catch up to a fleeing enemy then you aren't meeting resistance at all. The other one that works on enemies is only good for duelists, which makes it pretty meh in terms of teamfights where you have several people attacking you all at once and it's only reducing the damage from one of them. It's much better on someone who's trying to catch people out like a Nocturne or a Skarner, and again is more of a snowballing choice than anything else. It isn't going to turn a match when there's a five man push on one of your lanes.

You're getting the point of the smites mixed up with what you're trying to accomplish. Try and remember that smite isn't a tool that was originally for fighting other champions. It was meant only to be used in the jungle, and for securing objectives, and it still needs to be treated that way up to a point. Chilling and Challenging smite both give some combat options, but champions who use them probably have enough combat options in their kits as it is, so those are more of situational tools already. None of the smites are there to assist someone who's falling behind unless you use it to get that clutch steal on Dragon or Baron. It's meant to help a jungler keep up, not catch up, but serves the latter in a pinch.

Skia Asteri1 votes

Just merge it with Trailblazer and have different effects depending on which jungle it is used in.

Duke Anax1 votes

That might be a good idea, as it stands Trailblazer seems just as usefull for Poaching as Poacher's Knife, but also can be used when not Poaching.

More from Gameplay

More by Duke Anax