Lord Dominik's Regards have the same issue old Last Whisper had: effective against non Tanks.

Duke Anax·Nov 6, 2015·71 votes·10,123 views

Riot finally changed LW to only penetrate bonus armor because everyone had enough base armor for it to be effective aynway.

Now I think LDR has a simmilar issue, because a lot of Mages and Supports build some health, "some" being already close or over that 500 cap on LDR.

LDR should scale to 1000 maybe even 1500 health difference. Because that's what most Tanks and some Fighters will get.

Edit, to clarifiy: I don't mean that LDR shouldn't have an effect against Mages and Supports that build tanky. i just think it shouldn't reach it's full effect in the range of one major health item

63 Comments

SpecterVonBarenNov 6, 201526 votes

Why not make it so the passive is instead that whoever currently has more health than your max health gets a damage amp applied to them? This makes it effective against health stackers but once the playing field is even between the health of the two you can't rely on that amp anymore.

Duke AnaxNov 6, 20151 votes

Anotehr nice option, certainly more resoabl than the current itteration.

ZarkkastNov 6, 20151 votes

Someone give this person a cookie. item 2010

SpoofghoulNov 6, 20151 votes

yes this would be nice

Troll for TrumpNov 6, 20151 votes

That's cool as an antijuggernaut snowballing item...wp

OyddAWqJ5rNov 7, 20151 votes

Or make it based on enemy level. Like 100 health per level up to 1500 at level 15.

JbelsNov 6, 201514 votes

Imho, tankbusting isn't something that should be happening until the way late game anyway, when an ADC is fullbuild/close to fullbuild. If tanks are supposed to be about getting to their late game purchases and being way too tanky to just focus down, why are ADCs being given options to deal with them before they even get to their 3rd item?

Duke AnaxNov 6, 20152 votes

Agreed, that's exactly what the increase to 1500 HP cap is supposed to accomplish.

The item would get's it full use only against full build Tanks.

TotalJerkNov 6, 20156 votes

Tanks especially have it bad early game because before they get to about 2-3 items they are going to effectively not even be a tank against something when facing a balanced team comp.

Rush armor and you're still vulnerable to magic damage.
Rush magic resist and you're still vulnerable to physical damage.
Rush health and you're still vulnerable to percent health damage.

It sucks being one of the tanks that really wants to build Frozen Heart first for the mana and CDR, but can't do so because the enemy team is mostly AP. It's one of the many issues Sion has.

MagearnaNov 6, 20152 votes

Incoming Volcanic Heart: mana, CDR, and MR (instead of armor)!

I wish :/

CommanderCommentNov 7, 20151 votes

the soul of this thread is that the item is too good against midlaners who go ROA.

IonianNov 6, 201510 votes

Yeah, as Ahri I usually get item 3116 + scaling hp seals. That makes it 616 bonus hp at level 18. 727 if 21/9 masteries.

AbyssphereNov 6, 20158 votes

I don't really understand the math behind the item. They complained that Last Whisper was basically a minimum 10% damage amp against everyone, and then they release an item that against someone with a single significant health item is a 15% damage amp... with the (admittedly significantly nerfed) armor pen passive on top of that. How does that make sense? And it's such an obvious thing.

The item will be built in every single game, just like Last Whisper was, because being anything other than glass makes you susceptible to it, and it's exceptional at destroying tanks. The Grievous Wounds pen item will be a noob trap on 5.22, even against people like Mundo.

RisurinNov 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't really understand the math behind the item. They complained that Last Whisper was basically a minimum 10% damage amp against everyone, and then they release an item that against someone with a single significant health item is a 15% damage amp... with the (admittedly significantly nerfed) armor pen passive on top of that. How does that make sense? And it's such an obvious thing.

The item will be built in every single game, just like Last Whisper was, because being anything other than glass makes you susceptible to it, and it's exceptional at destroying tanks. The Grievous Wounds pen item will be a noob trap on 5.22, even against people like Mundo.

not every ap goes rylai liandry and RoA... with those a mage is effectively more durable and tanky and the anti-tank item become more efficient. its working as intended. also the grieving wound item isnt a noob trap. its to fight composition with lots of sustain. Think about lifesteal/spellvamp.

Duke AnaxNov 6, 20152 votes

Good point, LDR should certainly be effective against tanky mages, however I don't think it should reach it's full effect in the range of only one major health item.

EndlessSorcererNov 6, 20155 votes

Most mages run scaling health seals. Those, combined with any of the items you listed above, is enough for 15% damage amplification.

It's not a bad idea for an item, but it should definitely have a higher health difference required for the maximum damage. Maybe something along the lines of 1000 to 1500 more health for 15% damage amplification.

RisurinNov 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Most mages run scaling health seals. Those, combined with any of the items you listed above, is enough for 15% damage amplification.

It's not a bad idea for an item, but it should definitely have a higher health difference required for the maximum damage. Maybe something along the lines of 1000 to 1500 more health for 15% damage amplification.

health scaling making more tanky, and make the anti-tank item more effective against you, how is that an issue ?

What i'm seeing here, is people want to be able to build hp items and not get as punished against people that build item that are efficient against hp stacking. Maybe thats the point of these changes ?

Also if you consider a 1k damage crit (lol), only after the 4th crit in a row does the damage outweight the bonus hp gate of 500 hp for +15% dmg(15% of 1k is 150, 3x 150 is 450, 4x is 600). If you got 1k dmg critted 4 time, i highly doubt the +15% is what killing you. And any bonus hp above 500 is just helping you be more tanky as it doesnt increase the bonus damage further up.

EndlessSorcererNov 7, 20152 votes

The issue is how small the health difference required for the item to provide 15% damage amplification is.

If you want a simple example, Ashe has 1870 base HP at level 18 and Tryndamere has 2290 base health at level 18. Even without purchasing any health items, Tryndamere has 420 HP more than Ashe.

Tryndamere has not purchased any health items but Lord Dominik's Regards would still provide close to the full 15% damage amplification against him when used by Ashe.

That's not an item that punishes champions who stack health; it's an item that punishes the purchase of any health item, no matter how minor, very effectively.

RisurinNov 8, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The issue is how small the health difference required for the item to provide 15% damage amplification is.

If you want a simple example, Ashe has 1870 base HP at level 18 and Tryndamere has 2290 base health at level 18. Even without purchasing any health items, Tryndamere has 420 HP more than Ashe.

Tryndamere has not purchased any health items but Lord Dominik's Regards would still provide close to the full 15% damage amplification against him when used by Ashe.

That's not an item that punishes champions who stack health; it's an item that punishes the purchase of any health item, no matter how minor, very effectively.

I think it's safe to assume that tryndamere still win that 1v1 lol, not much of a concern :^).

yes its just an example, but its one that doesnt show much more then one is an utility marksman, made to be squishy and kiting with her kit, and the other is a dueslist-esque fighter that excel in splitpushing. One is more a teamfighter, the other more of a 1v1 champion. would make more sense to justify it with a duellist-duellist match up, like vayne.

Then the core issue i see here is that tryndamere that has more base hp than the average marksman (aka is more tanky, even if its just core hp) is receiving more damage from a champion that is less tanky and has built a very specific item design to deal more damage on champion with more health than you ?

also dont forget that if we assume a 500 dmg hit, the amp is +75 dmg. that means the marksman will have to hit you 7 time for 525 (to counter-balance the 500 hp requirement for capped 15% dmg amp), so the marksman has to hit you for 3500 damage to get +520 bonus damage from the LDR's passive. In the end yes the item will allow the ADC kill slightly faster, but its really not as dramatic as the board thinks.

Voluug13Nov 6, 20152 votes

And there are many mages that can get all the 3. Specially RoA Liandri.

HawkefireNov 7, 20153 votes

And if they are then they have specifically itemized for health and this item is designed to counter that.....

So in this case the item would be working as intended.

The problem here, is that even after a single health item, the item is countering that champion entirely. Building a single health item is not stacking health, and as such the item shouldn't absolutely wreck someone for building so much a single health item.

Gnart Even CloseNov 6, 20154 votes

I agree, and the damage increase should be 10% instead of 15%

Duke AnaxNov 6, 20153 votes

Nah I don't see the need for that, it's supposed to bust tanks, so it needs to actually do damage against them. It may even need an increasse to 20% for that.

But it needs to actually target Tanks, at 1500 HP difference.

Gnart Even CloseNov 6, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Duke Anax,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bNz1i01E,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-11-06T13:00:37.641+0000)

Nah I don't see the need for that, it's supposed to bust tanks, so it needs to actually do damage against them. It may even need an increasse to 20% for that.

But it needs to actually target Tanks, at 1500 HP difference.

BoRK exists, and tanks need a reason to bother existing at all...

Cosmic WarperNov 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

BoRK exists, and tanks need a reason to bother existing at all...

BoRK got nerfed and it's not even efficient on all marksmen. You mean to tell me that if Graves, caitlyn, MF, and Quinn want to kill tanks they need to buy BoRK which would be horribly inefficient for their kits? Bullshit. Last whisper is meant to be a tank busting item, BoRK is meant to combat HP stacking and/or for dueling potential.

Cosmic WarperNov 6, 20154 votes

I feel like it should scale to a 1000 health difference, with 1.5% per 100 health being the scale. ADCs usually have 1800-2200 hp lategame while tanks can have anywhere from 3000 to 4500 hp late. Mages usually don't hover above 2500-2600 hp unless they get both a RoA and liandries, and even then the damage scaling wont be enough to completely destroy them.

SlytherinUmbreonNov 6, 20153 votes

You remember that one time riot commented on design skewing the game in favor of certain stats? item 3165 yeah, I'm pretty sure the fact that this item is almost 100% effective against just 1 health item is a pretty good example of that... also, lol Grievous wounds.

junglerboy16Nov 6, 20153 votes

Simple fix: The passive only turns on if the enemy has 500 more HP. After that, the passive functions identically, capping at 1000 HP difference.

For example, If Ryze has 2500 HP and Ashe has 2050, the passive won't turn on and she gains no bonus damage. If Ryze has 2700 and Ashe has 2000, then she gains (200/50) x 1.5% bonus damage, or 6% increased damage.

This is effectively the same as the idea to have the bonus scale up over a 1000 HP difference, but it makes it safer for those who are just within a couple hundred HP difference (like most assassins and mages). It'll still give the full bonus almost every time against a fighter or tank, but not against squishies.

ModAcademy KaynNov 6, 20152 votes

It wouldn't be so bad, if more ADC Items had health attached to it, but Alas, only Crit/AS/AD are on ADC items (The only one being Black Cleaver, but that's a stretch)

TDubHNov 6, 20152 votes

Hmm i agree but i'm more radical. Lord dominic's Regard has the same issue as last whisper, more effective against non tanks than tanks. with last whisper it is "ignore 35% armor" well yes, non tanks have less armor, but that "less armor" has a greater value than the "more armor" of tanks because damage is a parabolic curve moving from 1,000 armor to 1,100 armor will not even change the dmg value by a 1% while decreasing it by 35% will have a extremely high gold value, it is not as high an amount as damage as decreasing 100 armor to 65 armor which increases damage dealt by a significant percentage

In summation: while have higher gold efficacy against tanks, LW enabled more damage dealt against squishies.

With lord dominicks it has a scaling max (500) to hit its cap, while adc's build glass cannon other roles like support take as much damage as they recieve effective health, meaning that buying any item for health reasons (sightstone for example) is completely negated, it only becomes less effective as more health is bought... such as on a tank so while it does purge through bonus armor, it is less effective on tanks with full build than it would be on supports with full build in terms of price negation... which is stupid,

On a side note: The tanks of season 6 will be health based, based on the stats so far reasoning: Bonus armor shred, (if no bonus armor, is no shred) Health based damage is nerfed (Liandries/botrk) early game nerf on vayne leading to said theory.

RisurinNov 6, 20151 votes

might be an unpopular opinion on this board :^) but i think its fine like that. AP champions have those utility items that make them effectively more durable while not losing much of their bursting impact if at all. see this as a trade off for the hp items you building, they help you tank more damage overall, but also help one champion deal more damage if they also build one specific item.

Maximum MordeNov 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

might be an unpopular opinion on this board :^) but i think its fine like that. AP champions have those utility items that make them effectively more durable while not losing much of their bursting impact if at all. see this as a trade off for the hp items you building, they help you tank more damage overall, but also help one champion deal more damage if they also build one specific item.

Welp, I'll be quitting if they make it so marksmen routinely win 1v1 duels with mages at any point of the game, because at that point there is no reason to play mages since marksmen kill objectives and players better. I'm not talking about outplays, those are fine. I'm talking about the inherent reliability of right click auto attacks vs the fact that many mages have to do extra work to ensure their combo lands.

Battlecast SonaNov 7, 20152 votes

The thing that people aren't looking at is that in a teamfight it doesn't matter how many Marksmen you have if Viktor stuncaged everyone, and no ADC can ever bring that level of utility (aside from Varus, who only has the ult). You don't bring mages for damage so much - there's a reason they're being called "control mages" in professional play, and it's because they control teamfights and zone off objectives. I mean yeah in a straight up sustained DPS contest the ADCs are going to win but it's literally their job to do sustained damage. You will never be able to replicate the wombo of a Malphite/Ori team, or an Annie team, without having a mage.

Additionally, mages generally have tools to either burst a target down or to kite at an increased range to most ADCs (like Ziggs or Xerath) so they definitely have that going for them as well. Once people figure out how to better play against these new ADCs I think the meta will normalize a little, with ADCs in roles like mid or top working well for certain ADCs in certain comps (Quinn mid is good for her map presence) but there will still be a place for mages (maybe even in bot lane with combo kill lanes, which could be really positive for some of the mages in the game).

Maximum MordeNov 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bNz1i01E,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T03:41:52.158+0000)

The thing that people aren't looking at is that in a teamfight it doesn't matter how many Marksmen you have if Viktor stuncaged everyone, and no ADC can ever bring that level of utility (aside from Varus, who only has the ult). You don't bring mages for damage so much - there's a reason they're being called "control mages" in professional play, and it's because they control teamfights and zone off objectives. I mean yeah in a straight up sustained DPS contest the ADCs are going to win but it's literally their job to do sustained damage. You will never be able to replicate the wombo of a Malphite/Ori team, or an Annie team, without having a mage.

Additionally, mages generally have tools to either burst a target down or to kite at an increased range to most ADCs (like Ziggs or Xerath) so they definitely have that going for them as well. Once people figure out how to better play against these new ADCs I think the meta will normalize a little, with ADCs in roles like mid or top working well for certain ADCs in certain comps (Quinn mid is good for her map presence) but there will still be a place for mages (maybe even in bot lane with combo kill lanes, which could be really positive for some of the mages in the game).

That is certainly one way of looking at it but to me it isn't a fun way. In much the same way that people in general don't want to play support even though it is hugely inpactful, I don't want to play a control bot. I'd rather quit until they make the game fun for me again. There are more games out there than I can possibly play. That isn't a threat or a whine, that is just the reality. If my favorite class of Champions suddenly shift to something I don't like, why would I keep playing?

P.S. Jinx is pretty damn close to a mage wombo as is between just a couple autos and her ult

Battlecast SonaNov 7, 20151 votes

Also, I'm aware this isn't really what most people think, but mages going mid hasn't ever really been about them being primary damage dealers. It's been about their ability to roam and gank more effectively than an ADC (the previous mid lane solo laners). Their ability to oneshot people or do damage hasn't really been effected in any meaningful way - in fact, Mage damage has only been buffed by new masteries... So your concerns are really unfounded. People are ignorant and see people playing ADCs in every role on PBE and assume that's how the real servers will look, but I think the meta will remain mostly unchanged with some fringe picks gaining traction (ADCs having more diverse kits mean there might actually be a place for ADCs in mid and top aside from just cheesy counterpicks or splitpushers, but it doesn't mean mages will cease to exist).

There's absolutely no way that Jinx brings the upfront burst to a fight that basically any mage in the cast does unless her ult executes someone at close range.

LadyRenlyNov 7, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Vitriolic Cat,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bNz1i01E,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-11-07T03:41:52.158+0000)

The thing that people aren't looking at is that in a teamfight it doesn't matter how many Marksmen you have if Viktor stuncaged everyone, and no ADC can ever bring that level of utility (aside from Varus, who only has the ult). You don't bring mages for damage so much - there's a reason they're being called "control mages"

not all mages are control mages

Battlecast SonaNov 7, 20151 votes

I never said they were? Just that there's where the focus is shifting in the mid lane - we're seeing less play of things like LB aside from situational counterpicks and seeing more picks like Ori, who generally start out as safe, farming laners with good utility and shift into damage dealers in the mid/late game.

RisurinNov 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maximum Morde,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bNz1i01E,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-11-06T20:28:47.896+0000)

Welp, I'll be quitting if they make it so marksmen routinely win 1v1 duels with mages at any point of the game, because at that point there is no reason to play mages since marksmen kill objectives and players better. I'm not talking about outplays, those are fine. I'm talking about the inherent reliability of right click auto attacks vs the fact that many mages have to do extra work to ensure their combo lands.

i mean, mages will still have CCs and burst that allow them to kill marksman really fast, and have a ton of utility in team fights. Zhonya is pretty good to help get your cd back will not taking any damage yourself. i dont think there should be a reason why 1v1 with a generic mage and a generic adc should go one way or another during the most of a game.

The HoeNov 6, 20151 votes

But the damage from Infinity Edge has been nerfed from 80 to 65, which is about a 15% decrease, so isn't this just shifting the damage to mid-late game for most ADCs?

rampaging poetNov 7, 20152 votes

ADCs have base AD that also gets multiplied. That hasn't been reduced 15%.

Battlecast SonaNov 7, 20151 votes

actually, every ADC in the game now has lower base AD at level 18 due to the rebalancing Riot did (they gave everyone a little more base at level 1 but nerfed the scaling AD universally).

Cloud PotatoNov 7, 20151 votes

Bonus Armor Pen is shit. Like, really shit. Even with Giant Slayer LDK is going to have shit damage against non Armor stackers.

Need Gold 4 TentNov 7, 20151 votes

which is the whole point of it? the numbers may need work but the idea is that it's built to increase your damage when people are stacking armor. those who don't... well, you're not getting your damage reduced much in the first place so why would you need to bypass damage reduction?

Cloud PotatoNov 8, 20151 votes

I know that's the point. But the concern that LDK is going to deal heaps of damage against everyone is not really well founded. Anything with Crit on it will outdamage LDK except against its intended targets.

RyzeReworkNov 7, 20151 votes

riven and fiora dont build health and just melt the faces of squshies but have trouble against tanks just remeber these changes will effect EVERYONE if the items arent strong against rivens that may have 500 or so more health then you but are strong for rivens or assassins because tanks will have 1-2k more hp then you, and u gotta think of it like this anyway marksmen have 1.5k-2k hp around there mages usaully have less hp then marksmen and those who build hp are ganna be tankier now lets look at what 15 percent really is doing here, 45 extra damange off of 300 ad that means u do 45 more and most marksmen dont even get that much ad unless ur a bursting early game marskmen or draven, and that doesnt go through armor thats 45 AD

Battlecast SonaNov 7, 20151 votes

I feel like the 15% bonus damage is a way to reward ADCs for building the items against health stacking teams who aren't necessarily building armor (like a Vlad with base armor but lots of HP due to his passive, though you probably want the other item for that situation unless you have grievous wounds already available easily). Since it's now only bonus armor pen, it's a pretty inefficient item against people with no armor, even if they have other defensive stats. The damage amp I believe is just in place to solidify your choices as "kill high HP targets" or "stop people from healing"... It may need to be tweaked, but I think 1500 is a bit extreme. Scaling it so there's no bonus at 250 additional HP but it starts there seems decent - you get minimal bonuses against mages who don't opt heavily into health items, retain your bonuses against health stackers in the midgame as their build picks up (if you get the item early), but it retains good bonus damage without being a 500 health difference (meaning opting into one health item might be 5% bonus damage, but not 13.5% or what have you).

The nice part is that numbers are really easy to tweak, so it's likely the item will be revisited by Riot before the LCS season starts.

SpeedphoenixNov 7, 20151 votes

I agree with this person 8)

Crowe StalkerNov 8, 20151 votes

Can we just throw the unnerfed item 3153 passive on Lord Dominik's Regards, remove Blade of the Ruined King, and call it a day? Wouldn't that be better?