For a champion designated by Riot as assassin/skirmisher, Ekko sure is tanky.

Yimmortal·Jun 18, 2015·105 votes·4,249 views

Assume we have a late game Ekko with 700 AP. In a teamfight, his Parallel Convergence is going to give him a 890 damage shield and his ult will heal him for 200 flat+53.31% of damage taken. Lets say an Ekko with 2000 hp ults when he has 500 hp left. That is roughly 800 HP restored. In total, that is a 1690 HP get out of jail for free card. This is really absurd for an assassin. I don't mind Ekko doing a ton of damage or being frustrating to play against but it makes no fucking sense why a champion with enough damage to match top tier assassins like Ahri or Zed should also be deceptively tanky while building full AP. This is an indication of design failure when a champion does not have any tradeoffs to give for its immense power. I propose that Ekko should either have his shield reduced or either the heal or damage portion of his ult taken away.

71 Comments

UltîmaJun 18, 201536 votes

What grinds my gears about Ekko's current state is that Diana was nerfed into oblivion for the precise reason of gaining too much sustain via her shield by building AP. They both have a very similar "dive-in" pattern to their gameplay as well, except Ekko is even more safe thanks to his ultimate. Why is it okay for one character that deals point-click burst damage to have a huge shield, and not the other?

Edit: Diana is currently strong, yes, but don't forget that she was nerfed with great prejudice shortly after her release, to the point where she felt brokenly weak (Her W had less range than her autoattack at some point, which meant she couldn't proc it even in aa range). They've been steadily patching her back into viability since.

AutoreactiveCD4Jun 18, 201515 votes

^ All of this. Another thing is Diana's presence in lane and from the jungle is severally weakened because she needs lvl 6 to go in effectively. It's a weird scenario where riot acknowledges that Diana has balancing problems due to her kit but also has a weakness, they then decide to make a kit with almost to same problems, take away a glaring weakness, and then add a huge spike in safety at lvl 6.

I Main SwainJun 18, 20159 votes

nerfed into oblivion my butt. Diana is still ridiculously strong, stronger than ekko imo. yes, ekko is safer but her assassinations are far more reliable.

also, his damage is most definitely not point and click, he has exactly 1 ability that is point and click and that's because it's an aa empowerment. all of his other abilities are relatively easy to dodge.

FeathermaneJun 18, 20157 votes

Ditto. But in GD minds, new strong champion > old but better champion

I Main SwainJun 18, 20154 votes

basically, although ekko really isn't even that powerful outside of people who are really freaking good with him. for example I played a 3's with my friend the other day and flipped out when I saw how godly he was with his everything, but when I play him I go like 6 16

NilokJun 18, 20152 votes

Maybe not nerfed into oblivion, but nerfed enough for her to be played less than an upcoming time champion.

Okay, a little too conspiracy-ie, but it isn't a good precedent to set by releasing multiple champions that fill a similar or identical role and play style with one noticeably stronger than the other.

Aych PiiJun 19, 20151 votes

Diana isn't anywhere near recent, and Ekko's not as similar to her as you make it sound.

Dr EasterJun 18, 20152 votes

https://i.imgflip.com/n3c2u.jpg

Only Play DariusJun 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Diana was nerfed into oblivion

I beg to differ, Diana is rather strong at the moment (partially because Akali got nerfed to hell) and a versatile champion who can top, mid, or jungle with good performance. She is also a hard counter to the soloQ shredders Katarina and Leblanc so there's that.

canpan14Jun 18, 201511 votes

He isn't tanky. He just has high survivability. With escapes + his ult he can get back health and escape situations. That doesn't make him tanky though.

xMercFoxJun 18, 20154 votes

Right, he still takes dmg like many other assassins, just has the ability to dodge out of some damage as well as have some health returned with his ulti. I dont think he is nearly as "broken" and most people are saying.

Troy242621Jun 18, 20156 votes

{quoted}

He isn't tanky. He just has high survivability. With escapes + his ult he can get back health and escape situations. That doesn't make him tanky though.

A shield that beats most tanks' shields is pretty tanky.

DrukyulJun 18, 20151 votes

Compared to Nautilus, Ekko has (level 1..18):

HP: +4 .. -102 Armor: +0.5 .. -3.7 MR: Identical

Shield strength comparison:

Nautilus: 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 (+ 9 / 11 / 13 / 15 / 17% of max health) [18s cooldown] Ekko: 150 / 195 / 240 / 285 / 330 (+ 80% AP) [22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14s cooldown]

Assuming Nautilus has 4k HP, that's a 765 shield. Ekko will need 544 AP to match that.

Also Nautilus shield lasts for 10s, compared to Ekko's 2s.

Nautilus has no other tank abilities. Ekko has his ultimate to heal.

canpan14Jun 19, 20151 votes

You also have to take into account that naut will have a lot of resists which make the effective strength of that shield a lot higher.

DrukyulJun 19, 20151 votes

If you're going to do that, you have to take into account that Ekko is going to kill someone in 3 seconds and start taking significantly less damage.

canpan14Jun 19, 20151 votes

A tanks shield is worth more than ekkos. A 500 shield on a tank will absorb a lot more damage because of the resists.

ChaoticPineconeJun 18, 20151 votes

It might not be 'tanky' in the old sense, but what is 'tanky'? Doesnt 'tanky' mean being able to survive for longer? Ekko is tanky for the same reasons that AD/Bruiser Fizz, Vlad, Swain, or Poppy is tanky - not through stats, but through invulnerability and heals.

canpan14Jun 19, 20151 votes

Tanky is being able to absorb/take more damage.

ChaoticPineconeJun 19, 20152 votes

And Ekko is able to absorb tons with one of the highest scaling shields in the game and with a heal in his kit.

CarryJun 18, 20157 votes

The reason it's reasonable for him to get so much damage/healing/utility out of his ult and parallel convergence, is that they have tons of counterplay and there is huge risk in misusing them. He needs a larger reward than other assassins.

The reason it feels unfair right now is that he is still relatively new, so you don't have the counterplay to his kit down yet. Ekko has a high burden of knowledge/awareness to play against, but I think with how dependent Ekko's kit is on his opponent not properly playing around his high reward but telegraphed options, people will start to improve dramatically at playing vs Ekko as time goes on.

MohawkBirdJun 18, 20153 votes

How are you going to misuse a free heal? If you manage to miss the burst, you still get healed for over half of your HP, and you are even better off if you hit it. As for his W, he doesn't even have to land the stun to get the shield, what misuse is there for it? "Misusing" those abilities isn't even that bad of a downside. Even an Ekko who missed his W can just walk in it and still get the huge shield and even an Ekko who didn't land his ultimate still gets a huge ass heal.

Nidalee SO NYAAAJun 18, 20153 votes

His W also really good for zoning you never have to hit it for it to be useful

DrNovaJun 18, 20152 votes

Yuo only get healed for a percentage of damage you've taken in the last 4 seconds.

Poke ekko down and his heal isnt going to heal for squat when he uses it.

And smart players know he's going to try to walk in for his sheild, and land CC on him when he does.

Its called counterplay, and he has plenty.

MohawkBirdJun 18, 20153 votes

What I am trying to say is that even if the Ekko manages to miss his skills, he still has little to no consequences because of it. "Damn, I missed my ult, let me just take advantage of the huge heal it gives." Did you miss your W? You can still use it for easy zoning and walk into it for a shield.

TomA3XJun 18, 20152 votes

Plus a flat amount, he's always going to get a bit of health back, no matter what.

AaravosJun 18, 20155 votes

No i accept the heal, even the shield. His damage is fine (maybe the execute is retarded). BUT. WHY HE IS INVULNERABLE AND UNTARGETABLE IN HIS ULT????????????? that shit negotiate every delayed burst and drop tower aggro, meanwhile heal and deal massive damage. Also i feel that his second e should be a dash and not a blink. His solo target burst is not even that extremly broken, strong for sure but he need that as an assasin. The problem is this retardedly overloaded stupid new mechanism. Just classic riot style. They will gonna nerf his damage until he won't be able to do his job as an assasin, while refusing the real issue.

Celeste BenalJun 18, 20158 votes

Because it is supposed to take him 4 seconds back in time. If he could be CC'ed in the middle of his ult, would it make sense? Besides, it lasts all of about .3 seconds. So just CC him before he ults. Then, like the person below me points out, he can't ult or anything else for that matter. Cc'ed Ekko is dead Ekko.

Davy CrockettJun 18, 20156 votes

If an Ekko goes in and he gets CC'd, you're a dead Ekko, no matter how strong your items are.

AnidanJun 19, 20152 votes

Fun Fact: Until fairly late in the game, Riven is the exact same way, yet people are more likely to gloss over the fact because reasons!

Just a random tidbit I thought I'd point out. Dunno why that gets glossed over yet for other champions (Ekko, Fiora, etc.) it's brought up as a huge deal.

FowusJun 19, 20151 votes

Isn't that with every champion

RozzetaJun 18, 20154 votes

I'm pretty sure this is made to avoid bugs rather than a gameplay feature.

ChaosThiefJun 18, 20154 votes

From my experiences (I have played multiple games with ekko without running boots(I used 3 %movement speed items in it's place) with around 900 some AP) The giant shield it gives usually only saves you from instantly dying to their assassins or carries.

Since you know, he isn't a long distance poke mage, he's a dive into the middle of their team assassin. If you go in at the wrong time and get stunned ONCE, usually you just flat out die to their carries, and usually the shield only delays the inevitable if you get stunned in the middle of them.

Troy242621Jun 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

From my experiences (I have played multiple games with ekko without running boots(I used 3 %movement speed items in it's place) with around 900 some AP) The giant shield it gives usually only saves you from instantly dying to their assassins or carries.

Since you know, he isn't a long distance poke mage, he's a dive into the middle of their team assassin. If you go in at the wrong time and get stunned ONCE, usually you just flat out die to their carries, and usually the shield only delays the inevitable if you get stunned in the middle of them.

It's a shame, really. He shouldn't have to think about the stuff every other assassin in the game except LeBlanc has to. He deserves that shield and heal-while-invincible-and-teleporting-out-while-dropping-a-damage-nuke ultimate.

AkesgerothJun 19, 20154 votes

AD CARRIES ARE SO TANKY I MEAN IN A FIGHT WITH 400 AD AND 30% LIFESTEAL AND A 2.0 ATTACK SPEED AND 30% CRIT CHANCE WITH IE THEY HEAL FOR 300 PER SECOND RITO PLS NERF DEEERRRRPPP

I Main SwainJun 18, 20153 votes

first off, the heal is only off of damage dealt to him in the last 4 seconds. second, the w has a very long delay to the point where you honestly have to predict the coming conflict. third, his w shield only lasts a couple seconds, less time in fact than the stun.

PokladnicaZlaJun 18, 20153 votes

Let's not forget the stun.Oh how I hate that stun...

DrNovaJun 18, 20151 votes

Honestly unless he throws it from outside your vision range its pretty hard to get stunned. Considering it is so telegraphed

PokladnicaZlaJun 18, 20151 votes

When playing immobile champs,its a bit harder than playing as LB,Zed...

Besides that,hans't it been already agreed on that assassins shouldn't have hard CC?

originary91Jun 18, 20153 votes

Ekko is Diana 2.0 By all means, if Riot is true to their word, he should be nerfed to the ground next patch. But he won't be, because they'll make up some argument about why he's healthy for the game and why Diana isn't. O_o

Nidalee SO NYAAAJun 18, 20152 votes

They said the same thing about Zyra that was she was not healthy for the game. Also his nothing like Irelia because once she goes all in she can't just escape

originary91Jun 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They said the same thing about Zyra that was she was not healthy for the game. Also his nothing like because once she goes all in she can't just escape

Much rather play against Zyra than Annie to be honest. Annie is just...horrible...Who's smart idea was it to make a burst mage that can proc two aoe stuns in less than four seconds...

Ariel the CruelJun 19, 20151 votes

I believe it was called. . . Beta?

Nuclear PandaJun 18, 20153 votes

But he has tons of counterplay. If you don't burst him, he can't heal for half his hp. If you need to burst him, cc him first so he can't ult. Also his shield is avoidable. If you don't walk in, you don't get stunned. The time it takes for the dome to come up is very long and takes good timing. If you don't want him to get the shield, keep him out of the dome.

SammystormJun 18, 20152 votes

I am sorry but he does have very clear trade offs. He doesn't match the top tier assassins right now. His shield doesn't last very long and the ekko player has to predict several seconds ahead. If they predict wrong they either get a shield and are no where near any one or they don't get a shield. Ekko's ult works like any other healing mechanic and is halved by grievous wounds. Also if he is using his ult to escape he doesn't get the damage from it. Stop pretending like he is tanky because he really isn't.

GankLordJun 19, 20152 votes

Oh you mean the sphere that takes 3 seconds to activate and that you have to walk into in order for you to get the shield? The shield that gives you such a long warning when it's about to activate and you have pray to every god in existence that your opponent is so stupid that they walk into within that time frame. That shield oh ok I can see how that makes him deceptively "tanky" and how it's a problem.

JingerbeardmanJun 18, 20151 votes

uhhhh, is this thread a Joke? I honestly am unsure...

His shield is highly situational and his ult is the same. Neither are instant gratification but instead require skilled preparation and execution to be used effectively.

To compare him to Ahri and Zed is a poor argument though. Both of those champions are very evasive and Ekko in comparison is not. Ekko has only 1.5 things he can use to escape, a short dash and an ult that might be in a good spot to escape to but probably is not. He is also very susceptible to ambush ganks when properly executed so he cant use his ult to escape. His zone shield is not going to help when he gets ambushed because by the time it actually comes up he is likely dead. The same cannot be said for Zed and Ahri.

I will say that Ekko is still a bit strong at the moment and will need some adjustments. Just what needs adjusting is hard to say though. The fact of the matter is it is to soon to cast judgement because, lets face it, no one is used to him yet. Once he is around a little longer and ways to play against him are figured out it wont be such a big deal.

SoMNiaJun 19, 20151 votes

Don't forget his passive. That also functions as an escape when used against champions. His ult got a mana cost, his initial Q damage got nerfed, and his base attack speed (and thus benefit from any AS items) was reduced on the PBE. Time will tell what that does to him.

Doctor DymentJun 19, 20151 votes

Because... uh... because. looks at notepad Becaaaaaaaaaaaause... flip flip flip Yeah...

SoMNiaJun 19, 20151 votes

That doesn't make him tanky. It gives him very small windows of survivability. The shield lasts 2 seconds, and it's on a 3-second delay and a long cooldown. His ult % heal is only for damage he's taken in the last 4 seconds (if he lives that long once he starts taking damage). You CAN build him tanky, but a full AP build is not tanky. Beyond that, his damage DOESN'T match top tier assassins.