Can we go back to having a simple straight forward champion for once again like amumu or annie?
edit: okay 6 passives and 20 abilities is an exaggeration but I would like to see a simple champion again instead of the lately released champions like yasuo, reksai, kalista, gnar. etc that either have 4+ abilities, multiple passives, or abilities with special interactions.
JustMyBassCannon42 votesRiot has made a total of, what, six dual-ability champions? Let's see if I got that right.
Big friggin deal, a few champions have dual-ability kits.
Junkο2 votesAnd only 3 of them are viable
disregardable29 votesI see 5 viable champions.
UberAffe3 votesWhich one isn't viable?
disregardable7 votes
imo she actually is sort of viable as an AP mid laner, but it's not as reliable as the better mid laners. forget taking her into any other position though.
UberAffe4 votesI've played against a few pretty strong seeming jungle Elises in a few of my recent games
ArkenStorm3 votesmy friend is an elise jungle main and does pretty well. elise fits in just about any team comp.
InbredFeeder1 votesher clear time took a hit when rito nerfed her neurotox
Tourian2 votesThey just buffed it last patch.
Father Cthulhu2 votesher clear time took a hit when rito nerfed her neurotox
They just buffed that.
Tourian3 votesShe's far better top than mid. And she's still incredibly good in the jungle if you know what you're doing. I see people bitch about the fact that she "doesn't know what role she is", but that's exactly what makes her so strong: she can fill what ever role the team needs thanks to the fact that her kit enables her to do high burst regardless of items. I've build her pure AD and her abilities still hurt. If you build correctly she counters a lot of the popular top laners right now, like Fiora and Pantheon. She needs a little love, such as a cdr somewhere, probably the W, or perhaps make w have a move speed increase.
Junkο2 votesGnar, Rek'sai and Lee Sin, and maybe Nid. Jayce and Elise are not viable unless you master them
disregardable5 votesSpam the death ball and go in with hammer when they're low. How is that hard?
Junkο3 votesCause mana exists
disregardable2 votesso does 
Junkο3 votesFlask isn't enough for Jayce, and if he builds it he will lose damage, especially since he has to build at least a tear after.
disregardable2 votesOh no, he lost 7 whole damage to stay in lane longer? That's such a travesty. I mean that's assuming you even went Doran's blade. I personally like to go cloth+5 pots most of the time anyway, cause farm.
Chaotic Reks3 votesand than you get shoved out of lane because you are an idiot who decided to buy cloth instead of sustain...
disregardable4 votes5 pots is more sustain than one pot, yes? basic math?
Drunk Rummate6 votesRiot has made a total of, what, six dual-ability champions? Let's see if I got that right.
Big friggin deal, a few champions have dual-ability kits.
he also mentioned multiple passives, to be fair.
etc. It's a pretty long list actually.
Though I would argue that the majority of multi-passive champions are okay, so not really sure what he's getting at with that statement. I don't think it's an issue that blitz has both a mana barrier and a random lightning bolt. I don't think it's an issue that sion has a post-death passive and a health stacking passive. But I do think it's an issue that Zed has an execute passive and an AD passive, so there are some problematic ones.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesI was mostly focused on the "20 abilities" part because Rek'sai came out with dual abilities. And the only reason she has multiple passives is because some have no effect while burrowed/unburrowed.
Still, I'd like to see him even name a champion with 6 passives. I can only think of Teemo's 3; innate, W and E.
Drunk Rummate1 votesI was mostly focused on the "20 abilities" part because Rek'sai came out with dual abilities. And the only reason she has multiple passives is because some have no effect while burrowed/unburrowed.
Still, I'd like to see him even name a champion with 6 passives. The closest I have is Teemo's 3; innate, W and E.
Well Cassio has 4 if you count her main passive as having 3 tiers and then the mana refund on her E, but that's stretching a bit.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesSo, what, does Viktor have 3 passives now too?
No, he has one passive; he has a Hex Core in his inventory that he upgrades to buff himself further.
Same story with Cassiopeia, except hers upgrades with time instead of money. And it doesn't take an item slot.
Drunk Rummate6 votesSo, what, does Viktor have 3 passives now too?
No, he has one passive; he has a Hex Core in his inventory that he upgrades to buff himself further.
Same story with Cassiopeia, except hers upgrades with time instead of money. And it doesn't take an item slot.
I would say they're fundamentally different for the exact reasons you listed. Victor's can hardly even be considered a passive due to cost and inventory requirements. But really it doesn't matter. It's obvious the OP is exaggerating to prove his point.
Can't blame Riot for making champions more complex as time moves on though. It's really the only way to keep them from overlapping too much or losing their unique feeling.
Kuroi862 votesCan't blame Riot for making champions more complex as time moves on though. It's really the only way to keep them from overlapping too much or losing their unique feeling.
THIS!!!!
Junkο2 votesYou forgot the global taunt, that makes 4.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesand 
...kinda
JustMyBassCannon5 votesQuinn, Shyvana, Karma and Heimerdinger don't quite have the same function.
While Elise, Gnar, Jayce, Lee, Nidalee and Rek'sai all have actual dual abilities, with separate cooldowns for each ability, the aforementioned four modify their basic spells, but don't have separated cooldowns on their abilities.
You can use To The Skies! and Shock Blast independent of each other's cooldowns, but you can't use Blinding Assault, Tag Team, then another Blinding Assault without waiting on the cooldown. Modification as opposed to dual ability.
SecretAgentHulk23 votes : 2 passives (PR), 6 abilities (QQWEER) – W is one state toggle, not two abilities; additionally, Rek is a state-changing champion, each state has 1/4 kit items (P passive only for burrowed, while R passive only for unburrowed)
: 2 passives (PW), 4 abilities (QWER) – Black Spear is a mechanic enabling other parts of her kit, not a passive, and E's passive is only a mechanic for the active, so I did not count these
: 2 passives (PP), 4 abilities (QWER)
: 3 passives (PWR), 7 abilities (QQWEER) – additionally, Gnar is a state-changing champion, Mini Gnar has 3/2 kit items while Mega Gnar has 1/4 kit items
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER)
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER) – Q is a two-part ability, not two separate ones : 2 passives (PP), 5 abilities (QQWER) – it's arguable that Q is one ability, but the third stack is so different that I think it should be counted as two
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER) – Q is one state toggle, not two abilities
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER)
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER) – Q is one state toggle, not two abilities
: 1 passive (P), 4 abilities (QWER)
: 3 passives (PPW), 4 abilities (QWER)
: 3 passives (PWW), 7 abilities (QQWEERR) – additionally, Quinn is a state-changing champion, each state has 2/4 kit items
: 2 passives (PE), 4 abilities (QWER) – Q is a two-part ability, not two separate onesSo on average, a champ released in the past two years has 1 or 2 passives (27/17) and 4 abilities (69/17) per state. In 2013, the average champ released had 1 or 2 passives (15/9) and 4 abilities (37/9) per state; while in 2014, the average champ released had 1 or 2 passives (12/8) and 4 abilities (32/8) per state. This perception you have is failing to take into account state-changing champions. Amumu and Annie actually follow the same pattern: 1 or 2 passives (Amumu has two) and 4 abilities.
killd0zer5 votesQuinn's abilities can't really be compared because they share a cooldown. Jayce gets to use both QWE in each form. Quinn only gets to choose 1.
And who counts passives on active abilities? That's a really shitty way to intentionally skew results. He's talking about innate abilities.
SecretAgentHulk3 votesI don't play Quinn, so I have no idea about her. I just know that QER do different things when she's Quinn or Valor, so I counted them twice.
Also, OP has to count passives on abilities, because otherwise the only champions who have more than one passive in the past two years are Azir, Zac, and Yas. I think it's fair to count them as passives, but regardless, I have to count them as such when answering OP's question.
Orangesilk2 votesWoah there, Zac has two passives?, broken AF
killd0zer2 votesMy bad I didn't see that OP counted them too. I think that passives on abilities aren't really the same though. They require investment and part of the ability budget usually goes into the passive portion (Eg. Taric)
Champions like Zac just outright have 2 passives. Azir they didn't even try to be subtle, they just gave him 2 different named passives that have nothing to do with each other. Nothing about his activated passive really fits with his core gameplay; it's the definition of tacked on.
Onegarion2 votesYou have to count them because they ARE passives. They aren't the innate passive every champ gets. I mean looking at SHyv and Wu they both get increased resistances as their innate passive. Those stat passives are passives as well. Just because it isn't an innate doesn't mean it doesn't count.
Duke Anax1 votesI think is the only champ with 7 abbilities who is not state changing, or is he not?
SecretAgentHulk1 votesEven that, though, is debatable. Technically he does have seven actives, but I classify his QWE as more like Vel'Koz's Q—each is one ability, but with multiple stages.
(And yes, I know how I classified Yasuo's Q, and I'm struggling to articulate why I think it's different, but I do think it is.)
CIit Yeastwood3 votesVel has one ability. So it breaks off, that's not a separate ability.
Yas get's a secondary ability ability every third Q. It fundamentally works differently then his normal Q.
Just as a side note, I wouldn't count Lee's skills as "multiples". His secondary activation is simply the full effect of said skill. For example, let's say his Q automatically did the second activation after .5 seconds. Would that be 2 skills since it has 2 effects, or is it only 1 skill?
jpguy9028 votesCause new champions have to make LCSbigplays 
SecretAgentHulk13 votesThat is bullshit. The two biggest LCS Big Plays champions are Thresh and Lee Sin, if the bitching is accurate, but Thresh has 2 passives and 4 abilities, with only the actives being useful to the big plays; and Lee Sin (who is almost 4 years old BTW) has 1 passive and 4 abilities (QWE are two-part abilities, not two separate ones).
LCSBIGPLAYS is a bullshit excuse for not trying to understand the real reasons a thing is the way it is.
DJ Siamak8 votesAnnie's design is terrible and should never be used as an example of champion design.
VDc0zCqe0w4 voteswhy?
she has very clear weaknesses and strenghts, that's good design
simple can be good, she's like a rock 'n roll song
DWT123457 votesahem
Drukyul4 voteslook at first page CTRL-F "CertainlyT" Phrase not found
wtf?
Konidias3 votesIt's not necessarily the passives or skills that are annoying... It's that each newly released champ is OVERLOADED in terms of free stats.
Why does Rek'Sai need 20/40/60% attack speed boosts just for leveling up her ult? WHY?
Why does her Q give +90% bonus AD? Why does her unburrow give +40% AD?!
I main Quinn and her AD ratios are straight garbage in comparison... and she's supposed to be an ADC. (65% for her Q, 20% for her E)
Then look at Rek'Sai's other skills:
E gives 120% AD MINIMUM and 240% TRUE DAMAGE maximum.
This is like the definition of drooling on yourself while spamming keys. You get all this free bonus damage for NOTHING.
Rek'Sai can clear the entire side of her jungle and hit level 4 in one sweep without backing, and with little risk of dying. How many other champs can do this so easily?
Face facts... the new champs are designed to compete and they are designed to take advantage of the new rift. Old champs are just cast aside.
Durzaka1 votesIt's not necessarily the passives or skills that are annoying... It's that each newly released champ is OVERLOADED in terms of free stats.
Why does Rek'Sai need 20/40/60% attack speed boosts just for leveling up her ult? WHY?
Why does her Q give +90% bonus AD? Why does her unburrow give +40% AD?!
I main Quinn and her AD ratios are straight garbage in comparison... and she's supposed to be an ADC. (65% for her Q, 20% for her E)
Then look at Rek'Sai's other skills:
E gives 120% AD MINIMUM and 240% TRUE DAMAGE maximum.
This is like the definition of drooling on yourself while spamming keys. You get all this free bonus damage for NOTHING.
Rek'Sai can clear the entire side of her jungle and hit level 4 in one sweep without backing, and with little risk of dying. How many other champs can do this so easily?
Face facts... the new champs are designed to compete and they are designed to take advantage of the new rift. Old champs are just cast aside.
Her ult gives attack speed because she is an AA based champion who isnt meant to build ASP items. And because he ult is such a niche use it gives her some incentive to actually keep leveling it.
What kind of question is that about her Q and W? You compare it to Q, and then you realize Quinn is a ranged AD champion when compared to a melee AD champion. Scaling is never going to be the same.
killd0zer1 votesI think the bigger issue I have is that Rek'Sai is a champion with a different playing style, and has some new creative ideas...
...but Riot literally can't help themselves adding cookie-cutter "standard" effects to all her abilities.
For what reason exactly, does Rek'Sai have true damage? At all, like literally for what reason does she have true damage. Why does she need a slow, and sustain, and a gap closer, and a knockup, and 3 AD scaling abilities. Riot designers have no self-restrain for these things; every champion has to have them. And because every champ needs them, every new one also needs them to keep up.
So you take a pretty cool idea, and you make is exceptionally homogenized because every new champ is expected to have these effects on their abilities.
There is absolutely 0 reason for her W to scale with AD. A long time ago, Phreak said something along the lines of "AD scaling should go on abilities that are mostly used for damage. If it didn't do any damage, and would still be useful, then it doesn't need an AD ratio." This philosophy is clearly forgotten, because every ability that does damage these days needs to be AD scaling.
Durzaka1 votesI think the bigger issue I have is that Rek'Sai is a champion with a different playing style, and has some new creative ideas...
...but Riot literally can't help themselves adding cookie-cutter "standard" effects to all her abilities.
For what reason exactly, does Rek'Sai have true damage? At all, like literally for what reason does she have true damage. Why does she need a slow, and sustain, and a gap closer, and a knockup, and 3 AD scaling abilities. Riot designers have no self-restrain for these things; every champion has to have them. And because every champ needs them, every new one also needs them to keep up.
So you take a pretty cool idea, and you make is exceptionally homogenized because every new champ is expected to have these effects on their abilities.
There is absolutely 0 reason for her W to scale with AD. A long time ago, Phreak said something along the lines of "AD scaling should go on abilities that are mostly used for damage. If it didn't do any damage, and would still be useful, then it doesn't need an AD ratio." This philosophy is clearly forgotten, because every ability that does damage these days needs to be AD scaling.
I will agree completely with the true damage. it really is unnecessary power in her kit.
The slow (which im assuming is on her knock up, since i dont see it written in her kit) is to allow her to actually benefit from the knock up herself. She cant actually cast anything while the target it knocked up, due to the cast animation and being unable to attack while burrowed. So she has roughly .2 seconds of real CC where she can hit you before you can run again.
Her W has AD scaling to allow her to have SOME damage without AAing. To have an entire kit where the only source of damage is AA would be awful. i dont believe there is a champion in the entire game like that.
killd0zer1 votesThe slow (which im assuming is on her knock up, since i dont see it written in her kit) is to allow her to actually benefit from the knock up herself. She cant actually cast anything while the target it knocked up, due to the cast animation and being unable to attack while burrowed. So she has roughly .2 seconds of real CC where she can hit you before you can run again.
She has enough time to get an auto and a reset from her Q, and an E if you wanted to.
Her W has AD scaling to allow her to have SOME damage without AAing.
It would have SOME damage if it didn't scale at all.
To have an entire kit where the only source of damage is AA would be awful.
Fortunately, Rek'Sai has THREE abilities that deal damage outside of her auto-attack. That has nothing to do with why it needs to have AD scaling.
i dont believe there is a champion in the entire game like that.
I'm confused, do you mean there are no champions that don't have scaling abilities/abilities that deal relevant damage late game (which is wrong) or that there are no champions that have 0 damaging abilities at all (which isn't what we're talking about)
Durzaka1 votesShe has enough time to get an auto and a reset from her Q, and an E if you wanted to.
It would have SOME damage if it didn't scale at all.
Fortunately, Rek'Sai has THREE abilities that deal damage outside of her auto-attack. That has nothing to do with why it needs to have AD scaling.
I'm confused, do you mean there are no champions that don't have scaling abilities/abilities that deal relevant damage late game (which is wrong) or that there are no champions that have 0 damaging abilities at all (which isn't what we're talking about)
She has 2 skills that deal damage outside of her AA. Her Q is still her AA.
And her burrowed Q is garbage damage beyond the first 6 or so lows.
Which means her W is literally her only source of damage outside of her AAs.
And i saying exactly what i typed there. There isnt a single champion in the entire game where the only damage from their kit is from AAs.
killd0zer1 votesShe has 2 skills that deal damage outside of her AA. Her Q is still her AA.
Burrowed Q, Unburrowing of W and Un-burrowed E. I count 3, have you played this champion?
And her burrowed Q is garbage damage beyond the first 6 or so lows. Which means her W is literally her only source of damage outside of her AAs.
That's just a whole mess of horribly wrong. There's so many things there that just confuse me.
You said Q does low damage, and then immediately say "W is literally her only damage." She has TWO other sources of damage. Why does Q having low base damage have anything to do with W having scaling? If you completely removed the scaling, Q would still have low base damage. W doesn't even do much damage which is exactly my point; it's a tacked on scaling for no reason.
And i saying exactly what i typed there. There isnt a single champion in the entire game where the only damage from their kit is from AAs.
Which has nothing to do with Rek'Sai or her being overloaded. You aren't even discussing anything I said, that's just an argument against a random statement no one made.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. You aren't responding to my post at all. The issue is that W doesn't need to have AD scaling because it's a useful ability without it. Giving it scaling damage is power in the kit that could be put into things more unique than just having some marginal extra damage.
Oh yeah, and she heals too, at least it comes with a cost.
