The reason i think tanks are bad right now.

JuiceBoxP·Jul 18, 2019·51 votes·15,569 views

bruisers' itemization allows them INCREDIBLE sustain in fights. While tanks.... have none of the mechanics of the sustain during fights, slightly more tanky base stats and once their hp goes down it ain't coming back up and they just melt away. They're a pretty bad pick.

bruisers abuse Conquerer and high life steal items such as coupled with which gives them a lot of life steal and sustain in fights simply for doing damage..... But....They also build tank items...

for example - it is not uncommon to see a garen with and then - a literal full tank build while continuing to spin on your head and do 80% of the HP bar of a squishy with a single E while being literally a HUGE meatshield that can soak INCREDIBLE amounts of damage.

Now sure, the big argument here is that tanks offer CC while bruisers don't. I argue that it is not true at all. They all got CC.

So, bottom line, there is literal no reason to play a tank right now because bruisers do what tanks do, but better. tanks in the current meta are being melted in seconds due to the fact they got no sustain - and that's the difference that bruisers have.

134 Comments

TheBrothersGrymmJul 18, 201920 votes

The issue is tanks need time to scale, the game is so early focused that they dont get that time, or get put behind so then it takes much longer. its and early game meta atm, scaling comps rarely work

CyanSolution247Jul 18, 201915 votes

{quoted}

The issue is tanks need time to scale, the game is so early focused that they dont get that time, or get put behind so then it takes much longer. its and early game meta atm, scaling comps rarely work

Tanks need time to scale and yet also they get out scaled if they get to late game. I don't think needing to get to late game is the problem.

PB4UAMEJul 18, 20195 votes

But with % pen, easy access to true damage, rampant, overtuned % missing HP damage, % current HP damage, and % maximum HP damage, tanks actually get outscaled far harder than they scale. They get bullied out of lane, lose farm, do much less tower damage as a result, seed lane priority, and lack the mobility to assist their jungler and other laners, so they're nearly always behind early game, then get heavily outscaled at as little as 2-3 items by the core items of other classes, much less any anti tank itemization.

Modl Ryden lJul 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

The issue is tanks need time to scale, the game is so early focused that they dont get that time, or get put behind so then it takes much longer. its and early game meta atm, scaling comps rarely work

This is also backed with the idea that if tanks ever decide to build a damage item first, it only puts them further behind, unless their investment into that damage item nets them serious profit.

I've had countless experiences where someone locked in a tank and decided to go a damage item first and ended up 0/5 by 20 mins.

ToxicSnogeTopJul 19, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Ryden l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2019-07-18T22:37:59.916+0000)

This is also backed with the idea that if tanks ever decide to build a damage item first, it only puts them further behind, unless their investment into that damage item nets them serious profit.

I've had countless experiences where someone locked in a tank and decided to go a damage item first and ended up 0/5 by 20 mins.

As an absolutely exemplary example of this most Singed mains (like myself) of rushing item 3152 and item 3157 right now. Singed is used to building items like item 3151 and item 3116 early, but and are taking precedence over item 3742 and item 3065 which makes Singed incredibly volatile.

Damage is power, and it sucks. We need tanks for games to have any structure.

Pandemic PunchJul 18, 201911 votes

Tanks are irrelevant when champions with Dashes, CC, self shields, self damage reduction, high damage, and hyper mobility are tankier and have more survivability than the tanks do

huhndogJul 18, 20199 votes

Tanks aren't doing well atm moment because there are too many anti-tank mechanics in the game. Champions like Kaisa and Vayne completely obliterate any form of tank. Right now it takes too long to get any good items before the game is already decided. In order to get an item like item 3083 you will have to get 2 additional items like item 1401 and item 3065 to actually make it viable. When it comes to mr, there aren't that many items that fit a tank playstyle to counter it. A new cheaper mr tank item would go add more build diversity .Even though is good, some tanks don't have a built in heal making it a waste of gold.

TakaDamaJul 18, 20198 votes

I actually think the issue isn't that bruisers (or any class for that matter) are better, but rather that tanks themselves must play extremely passively if alone; which is why most tanks are played support or jungle, and those that arent have some key feature that makes them stronger than normal (Tahm Kench, Sion, the Doran Ring Tank top meta).

Because of this, solo lane tanks can't do anything to lane bullies. To put it into perspective, it is unlikely that a tank can 1v1 any non-tank top laner, including juggernauts, divers, skirmishers, battle mages, ranged champions like Quinn, Gnar, etc.

Now that wouldnt be the end all be all it tanks could farm minions well. However, while they have two different tier 2 items (bami's cinder and bramble vest) and one or two tier 3 item that builds out of tank items (Iceborn Gauntlet and Zz'rot Portal), they just dont compare to a melee champion building Tiamat or mage building Luden's Echo or anyone building Runaan's Hurricane or Statik Shiv.

This would be complicated to fix, but it may be best to determine which tanks should be early game tanks and which should be late game tanks, then tweak their kits and/or itemization to reflect that.

JuiceBoxPJul 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

I actually think the issue isn't that bruisers (or any class for that matter) are better, but rather that tanks themselves must play extremely passively if alone; which is why most tanks are played support or jungle, and those that arent have some key feature that makes them stronger than normal (Tahm Kench, Sion, the Doran Ring Tank top meta).

Because of this, solo lane tanks can't do anything to lane bullies. To put it into perspective, it is unlikely that a tank can 1v1 any non-tank top laner, including juggernauts, divers, skirmishers, battle mages, ranged champions like Quinn, Gnar, etc.

Now that wouldnt be the end all be all it tanks could farm minions well. However, while they have two different tier 2 items (bami's cinder and bramble vest) and one or two tier 3 item that builds out of tank items (Iceborn Gauntlet and Zz'rot Portal), they just dont compare to a melee champion building Tiamat or mage building Luden's Echo or anyone building Runaan's Hurricane or Statik Shiv.

This would be complicated to fix, but it may be best to determine which tanks should be early game tanks and which should be late game tanks, then tweak their kits and/or itemization to reflect that.

I agree on the part that they don't have enough damage, thus cannot 1vs1 anything. However, i do not think damage is the answer. Tanks should just be tankier. They should have mechanics that give them sustain during fights, and to be actually able to survive being focused.

Amumu Braum Galio Leona Malphite Nautilus Maokai Ornn Thresh Zac

None of these can live through being focused by at least 3 people for more than 2 seconds

TakaDamaJul 18, 20196 votes

I agree; I actually dont believe increasing their damage is the way to go, at least not against Champions.

My point is that they cannot scale as fast as non-tanks because they cannot farm, harass, or trade better than other classes. Thus they cannot level up or get gold as efficiently, and thus fall off quickly with little to no compensation late game if the game gets stalled for that long.

JuiceBoxPJul 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

I agree; I actually dont believe increasing their damage is the way to go, at least not against Champions.

My point is that they cannot scale as fast as non-tanks because they cannot farm, harass, or trade better than other classes. Thus they cannot level up or get gold as efficiently, and thus fall off quickly with little to no compensation late game if the game gets stalled for that long.

Yes. What i believe tanks should be able to do is shrug off a lot of damage on the early game to allow them to farm properly while being harassed. Which in turn allow them to actually scale.

Nea104Jul 18, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Indeed. It's crazy that what people call a "tank meta" it's about tanks dealing too much damage, not about tanks being too... tanky. As it has been discussed many times, this company doesn't want, and by the way it's probably not able, to make tanks actual tanks.

As a tank: I won't kill you, you won't kill me. As a tank, I don't want to deal damage. I want to protect allies, make enemies focusing me and wasting their skills, and so on.

"But if tanks deal no damage, you can just ignore them"... False: as in many other games, a little bit of competence and smartness is enough to find several ways to make tanks relevant WITHOUT DAMAGE: special taunts, peculiar saving features like Braum or Tahm, healer tanks (Taric style), low cd ccs/resettable ccs (Taric style), swapping places with allies, ally-overbuffing skills and so on.

(oh, and look at maybe the only actual tank, Braum: 45% WR :D)

JuiceBoxPJul 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

Very good points, i agree very much.

RalanrJul 18, 20193 votes

It's funny how the tanks you bring up that are relevant without damage are support tanks, not top laners or junglers.

At least, I assume you're talking about Support Tahm. As his current iteration is less of a tank and more of a bruiser.

TheSingularityJul 18, 20194 votes

""But if tanks deal no damage, you can just ignore them"..."

I agree with this in a teamfight sense. But if tanks don't deal enough dmg they can't function in top/jungle and would be relegated to support, which would turn it into picking the 1-2 same champs every game, which is reflected in the examples your proposed.

Nea104Jul 18, 20195 votes

{quoted}

""But if tanks deal no damage, you can just ignore them"..."

I agree with this in a teamfight sense. But if tanks don't deal enough dmg they can't function in top/jungle and would be relegated to support, which would turn it into picking the 1-2 same champs every game, which is reflected in the examples your proposed.

Champions can deal more damage to minions than to other champions (Nunu style), problem solved.

About champions: maybe delete some totally ~~idi~~ absurd concept like Pyke , and actual make Supports "protectors" of their team. Tanks (actual ones) would be perfect.

But of course this incredibly good company will keep up with the burst meta for another 2 years :P

RalanrJul 19, 20191 votes

So...tanks shouldn’t go top.

Nea104Jul 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

So...tanks shouldn’t go top.

I think they could. Wave clear, sustain, tankiness... And they could actually be "tower defenders", in a (supposed) tower defense game. Probably, though, "paper pea-shooter" towers would be the next problem.

What features do you think a toplaner should have, by the way?

RalanrJul 19, 20193 votes

I believe that all top laners need the ability to win trades. If you only give tanks defensive power, then they aren’t going to win trades. Especially since tanks actually do worse in extended fights.

Critmaster GarenJul 19, 20193 votes

{quoted}

So...tanks shouldn’t go top.

tanks should

be able to go top
go even with fighters early on and possibly win lane against them during that window when playing better
on even terms (gold, xp) get outscaled in 1v1 and split pushing for having more teamfight presence

they should not be champions like Chogath who scale up in aoe cc/utility of tanks, beef, sustain, and damage of juggernauts

i know there is like a soft scale between, mobility, utility, beef, damage, sustain and all of the available traits, and not every tank or bruiser will have exactly the same traits and will lack the same traits, but there is definitely a point where a champion has too much of everything.

putting high base damage and especially scaling % damage into utility loaded tank kits gives them too much of everything imo.

RalanrJul 19, 20193 votes

I still believe Cho’gath’s Changes were a mistake, but I’m not entirely against tanks having %health damage. But, because of how powerful that damage is, I feel it needs to be on abilities with lots of counterplay, with Sion’s W being the best example of this.

Outside of lane, I don’t think a tank should be able to 1v1 a fighter unless the fighter is extremely behind or the tank is really far ahead, but in lane the fights need to be more even to give both sides a chance to win. If a tank in lane can’t threaten a fighter, then it’s basically a free lane. All the fighter has to do is freeze lane because both the fighter and the tank know who will win the trade. Arguably this is the same exact problem if the tank can win lane, but it’s generally a lot harder to freeze lane when Riot keeps pushing for Sunfire to be the rushed armor item.

GigglesOJul 18, 20196 votes

Because Riot Hates tanks.

End of discussion tbh.

Yets4240Jul 18, 20192 votes

Sad, but unfortunately most evidently true.

LovelleJul 18, 20195 votes

It's not just bruisers, mages and even assassins bring a wealth of utility/CC these days. If tank itemization actually scaled well it would help balance things out, but it doesn't. Thus, it's always better to pick a damage-dealer.

DragonSheaJul 18, 20193 votes

{quoted}

It's not just bruisers, mages and even assassins bring a wealth of utility/CC these days. If tank itemization actually scaled well it would help balance things out, but it doesn't. Thus, it's always better to pick a damage-dealer.

Riot need to reinforce the fantasy of Wardens being defensive and protectors and Vanguards being tanks that engage and start teamfights.

Tahminatrix Jul 18, 20194 votes

That and item 3053 can make a bruiser more resistant to burst than a tank...a tank would either have to buy item 3193 or waste gold on getting ad from in order to get that...

Pika FoxJul 18, 20193 votes

Tanks arent bad. Bruisers have nowhere near the utility tanks have.

Issue is utility is less meaningful in solo queue than it is in tournament play.

JuiceBoxPJul 18, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:05:56.243+0000)

Tanks arent bad. Bruisers have nowhere near the utility tanks have.

Issue is utility is less meaningful in solo queue than it is in tournament play.

Yes, tanks can be strong when teammates take full advantage of their power. Which outside of the pro scene, just doesn't happen. Thus, tanks go in, do their thing, get 0 follow up from teammates, and get utterly destroyed the moment their cc is over.

I think we need a different approach to tanks because having tanks viable only on the pro scene is just bad. If you have any ideas, share them :)

Pika FoxJul 18, 20191 votes

Reduce utility, increase damage. Generally the best way to handle it.

Other things would be more champion specific.

JuiceBoxPJul 18, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:12:36.835+0000)

Reduce utility, increase damage. Generally the best way to handle it.

Other things would be more champion specific.

Why not increase tankiness? make their scaling less based off items, but more based on level and just being themselves(tanks)

PhieldworkerJul 18, 20193 votes

The best thing I do is hover around adc and mid laner after a certain point. And try making tp plays bot during lane phase. It does suck with no follow up but pinging ults and targeting people usually helps prep my team to know I’m looking for engage.

AlphaM GaymerJul 18, 20193 votes

Ornn sej and zac say hi.

Alistar and malphite are situationally viable.

Mundo is meta.

/thread

Chembaron YamadaJul 18, 20195 votes

Mundo is one of the bruisers, tho. He is a Juggernaut, like Garen or Yorick. Not a tank.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2019-07-18T23:33:08.837+0000)

Mundo is one of the bruisers, tho. He is a Juggernaut, like Garen or Yorick. Not a tank.

No, Dr. Mundo is a tank and he serves the function of a tank not a juggernaut.

You are confusing tanks with guardians

NemeBroJul 19, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=AlphaM Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=001300000000,timestamp=2019-07-19T01:21:22.669+0000)

No, Dr. Mundo is a tank and he serves the function of a tank not a juggernaut.

You are confusing tanks with guardians

Guardian is a subclass of tanks, of which vanguard is the other. Dr. Mundo is a juggernaut. Let's see what Riot has to say on the subject:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Juggernauts

Nasus Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi Trundle Olaf Garen Shyvana Udyr Dr. Mundo Volibear Yorick

Wow would you look at that.

He's a juggernaut. He has high durability and is meant to run down squishies and beat them to death. He doesn't engage for his team, disrupt with CC, or peel for his carry, he's there to cause havoc with his kill potential.

Also where is this "Mundo is meta" shit coming from? Is he being played in pro or something?

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Guardian is a subclass of tanks, of which vanguard is the other. Dr. Mundo is a juggernaut. Let's see what Riot has to say on the subject:

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

Juggernauts

Nasus Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi Trundle Olaf Garen Shyvana Udyr Dr. Mundo Volibear Yorick

Wow would you look at that.

He's a juggernaut. He has high durability and is meant to run down squishies and beat them to death. He doesn't engage for his team, disrupt with CC, or peel for his carry, he's there to cause havoc with his kill potential.

Also where is this "Mundo is meta" shit coming from? Is he being played in pro or something?

He is being played in lck and lpl scrim a LOT and he's a hot topic among certain coaches and casters.

And Mundo is functionally a tank irregardless of classification.

Riot also tried to call tf and yasuo assassins, no thnks

NemeBroJul 19, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=AlphaM Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=00130000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-19T01:45:30.835+0000)

He is being played in lck and lpl scrim a LOT and he's a hot topic among certain coaches and casters.

Yet he's performing like total dogshit in even high elo solo queue despite also being an easy champion to pick up and play. Why is that?

And Mundo is functionally a tank irregardless of classification.

He's not, as I've already explained. You play Mundo to kill carries, not to CC teams or protect allies. You don't seem to know what a tank is. It isn't just about being able to weather damage.

Riot also tried to call tf and yasuo assassins, no thnks

In the thread I linked they refer to the former as a burst mage and the latter as a skirmisher/melee carry, which is correct.

Even before the subroles became a thing Yasuo was listed as a fighter, not an assassin.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yet he's performing like total dogshit in even high elo solo queue despite also being an easy champion to pick up and play. Why is that?

He's not, as I've already explained. You play Mundo to kill carries, not to CC teams or protect allies. You don't seem to know what a tank is. It isn't just about being able to weather damage.

In the thread I linked they refer to the former as a burst mage and the latter as a skirmisher/melee carry, which is correct.

Even before the subroles became a thing Yasuo was listed as a fighter, not an assassin.

Winrates =/= power. Even LS could tell you that.

What do you even think "High elo solo queue" is? lmao.

Mundo is a tank, mundo is not played to kill carries. totally different beasts. What you explained was misguided, I understood your narrative the first time but it's far from correct.

NemeBroJul 19, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=AlphaM Gaymer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=0013000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-19T02:27:43.801+0000)

Winrates =/= power. Even LS could tell you that.

What do you even think "High elo solo queue" is? lmao.

I can't help but notice you avoided the question. Why is that?

Mundo is a tank

He's not.

Chembaron YamadaJul 19, 20194 votes

Mundo is a tank, mundo is not played to kill carries. totally different beasts.

Dr. Mundo is demanding attention from the enemy team and soaks up their damage.

However, there is a difference how a champions demands attention. A tank does it by either forcing the enemy to deal with him because of his interruption potential, or by redirecting the damage and forcing it on himself (taunts, Braum E, etc.).

A juggernaut demands attention because of their damage potential. If you leave the juggernaut unchecked, he will waltz through your lines and kill priority targets. Your team has to stop him from doing so.

Now look at Dr. Mundo: How does he force attention on himself? It absolutely is not his interruption potential, because he has none. Just a single target slow that can get bodyblocked. And he can't redirect attacks on himself either.

What forces you to deal with Dr. Mundo is his damage. If you don't address him, he will run down your squishies and kill them. You have to stop him doing so.

Juggernauts have the potential to soak up damage from the enemy team. But the major different to tanks is that they are forcing you to deal with them because of their damage, nor their CC neither because they have skills to force you to deal with them. Dr. Mundo is a Juggernaut, that is a fact. That you refuse to believe in that fact doesn't change it.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chembaron Yamada,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nPKsXcyR,comment-id=00130000000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-07-19T08:54:30.267+0000)

Dr. Mundo is demanding attention from the enemy team and soaks up their damage.

However, there is a difference how a champions demands attention. A tank does it by either forcing the enemy to deal with him because of his interruption potential, or by redirecting the damage and forcing it on himself (taunts, Braum E, etc.).

A juggernaut demands attention because of their damage potential. If you leave the juggernaut unchecked, he will waltz through your lines and kill priority targets. Your team has to stop him from doing so.

Now look at Dr. Mundo: How does he force attention on himself? It absolutely is not his interruption potential, because he has none. Just a single target slow that can get bodyblocked. And he can't redirect attacks on himself either.

What forces you to deal with Dr. Mundo is his damage. If you don't address him, he will run down your squishies and kill them. You have to stop him doing so.

Juggernauts have the potential to soak up damage from the enemy team. But the major different to tanks is that they are forcing you to deal with them because of their damage, nor their CC neither because they have skills to force you to deal with them. Dr. Mundo is a Juggernaut, that is a fact. That you refuse to believe in that fact doesn't change it.

If we take a step back from league for awhile, I'll reference medevial warfare to give you an analogy that may very possibly help bring you up to speed.

Wars used to be fought with bows, people didn't like getting show and determined that cover was a good idea, but it was hard to shoot a covered opponent without sticking your neck out for both sides and battles lasted a very long time, often turning into wars of attrition where one side got tired or dehydrated and ultimately lost.

Tanks came in the form of armor, shields and frontlines, which let you approach your objective without ripping.

In league, and in Rpgs, tanks have historically been the same thing, damage soaks that allowed you to advance forward.

Juggernauts can be designated tank duties, vanguards and guardians more often are. Dr. mundo however is a tank and irregardless of why some low tier yolo queue player picks him or why your favorite mobafire guide says to pick him, we don't pick challenger smite exhaust mundo jungle and build devourer rageblade on him, nor do we pick mundo for a discount xin zhao 1v1, we pick him for an explicit tank and only when he serves the above function. Mundo is meta right now, it just didn't trickle down or come into exposure yet.

the entire rest of the community can say whatever but when the most qualified pros, coaches and analysts say another, when the highest tier players in the world say another, and especially when reputable pros who's living resides on their ability to league and their performance says another, it carries a lot more weight. /thread

Chembaron YamadaJul 19, 20194 votes

Medieval warfare has absolutely nothing to do with the topic we are discussing here, I don't know if you really don't realise that or just chose to ignore it for your personal agenda.

Other RPGs can claim whatever they want, but in League of Legends, there is proper terminology and if you really want people to understand you, then you should use the proper terminology as well. And this terminology is that a juggernaut =/= a tank and Dr. Mundo = a Juggernaut.

Riot explicitly designed the subclasssystem to enable people to properly describe what happens in the game. By that definition, Dr. Mundo is not a tank. That he builds tank items has nothing to do with it, what matters is the role he is fulfilling and like I described, his play pattern is that of a juggernaut, not a tank. He threatens you with damage, not CC and not protection for his allies.

But as I see, you have no interest in actually obeying to the consensual terms used for this game. You just want to be right.

Yets4240Jul 19, 20193 votes

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about in any of your posts here. First you cannot seem to count, then you don't even know the classes and roles that different champions are while bitching about them. I mean, FFS.

Next what are you going to do, whine that "mUh TaNkS arE dOiNg ToO mUCh dAmaGeZ" citing Garen and Darius ? I mean, honestly.

Tanks encompass Wardens and Vangaurds, its champions like:

Poppy Alistar Braum Leona Amumu Nautilus Rammus

Y'know, the almost entirely sub 50% winrate, sub 5% pickrate champions you never fucking see, and when you do, they get obliterated in seconds, or feed out their ass in lane? Yeah, those guys. Some people would actually like to see some of the systemic and power creeped changes done to the game (such as changing penetration order, having such powerful %total resistance shred items, easy access to %current and %maximum hp damage to all champions even those without it in their kit, easy access to true damage and sustain for all damage champions from Runes Reforged, etc etc) undone, such that these characters can actually see some level of play and success at least on par with other classes of champions.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You have no fucking clue what you're talking about in any of your posts here. First you cannot seem to count, then you don't even know the classes and roles that different champions are while bitching about them. I mean, FFS.

Next what are you going to do, whine that "mUh TaNkS arE dOiNg ToO mUCh dAmaGeZ" citing and ? I mean, honestly.

Tanks encompass Wardens and Vangaurds, its champions like:

Y'know, the almost entirely sub 50% winrate, sub 5% pickrate champions you never fucking see, and when you do, they get obliterated in seconds, or feed out their ass in lane? Yeah, those guys. Some people would actually like to see some of the systemic and power creeped changes done to the game (such as changing penetration order, having such powerful %total resistance shred items, easy access to %current and %maximum hp damage to all champions even those without it in their kit, easy access to true damage and sustain for all damage champions from Runes Reforged, etc etc) undone, such that these characters can actually see some level of play and success at least on par with other classes of champions.

Factually incorrect, I never bitch about anything, I can count just fine. I'm a doctor, thanks.

You don't understand what a tank is, by your definition, olaf wouldn't be picked as a tank. Neither would shyvanna or mundo.

You're misinterpreting and misusing statistics off of third party websites without being able to evaluate any of the champions and you don't have experiance in competitive play or top en solo queue, nor are you connected to anyone who does. Sorry, but just because something doesn't apply at your level doesn't mean it doesn't exist lol

PB4UAMEJul 19, 20193 votes

Neither Shyvana, Olaf, nor Mundo are tanks. Two of them are Juggernauts, one of them is a Diver. You REALLY don't understand how classes work in this game. At. All.

Yets4240Jul 19, 20193 votes

Bruh. You're not even using statistics, much less citing them and using them correctly (which you also don't even bother to try to build a case for how I might be misusing them, other than stating it, which surprise surprise, does absolutely nothing to further your point). You're trying to rank and experience shame while on a fucking level 19 account. Are you for real, or just straight up trolling?

Also, dude. I don't know how to get this through your head, but Juggernaut =/= tank.

See these champions? Aatrox Darius Camille DrMundo Garen Illaoi Irelia JarvanIV Jax Kled Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Shyvana Renekton Trundle Urgot Warwick Volibear Yorick They are about doing damage, not protecting allies, providing AoE auras, or buffs, redistributing damage to themselves, or locking down and disrupting the enemy team.

They are the sub-classes of Juggernaut, and Diver, who are under the broader class of Fighter. They will have some bulk to compensate for their low threat range, and (in general) reliance on sticking to a target in melee (or near melee) range.

Not a single one of them is, or ever has been a tank. Not a single, solitary one. They are about getting in and doing damage which is pretty much the antithesis of a tank. Please learn what the fuck the words you are using mean, and what classes are in this game before trying to weigh in on a discussion you clearly do not understand.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

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Bruh. You're not even using statistics, much less citing them and using them correctly (which you also don't even bother to try to build a case for how I might be misusing them, other than stating it, which surprise surprise, does absolutely nothing to further your point). You're trying to rank and experience shame while on a fucking level 19 account. Are you for real, or just straight up trolling?

Also, dude. I don't know how to get this through your head, but Juggernaut =/= tank.

See these champions? They are about doing damage, not protecting allies, providing AoE auras, or buffs, redistributing damage to themselves, or locking down and disrupting the enemy team.

They are the sub-classes of Juggernaut, and Diver, who are under the broader class of Fighter. They will have some bulk to compensate for their low threat range, and (in general) reliance on sticking to a target in melee (or near melee) range.

Not a single one of them is, or ever has been a tank. Not a single, solitary one. They are about getting in and doing damage which is pretty much the antithesis of a tank. Please learn what the fuck the words you are using mean, and what classes are in this game before trying to weigh in on a discussion you clearly do not understand.

If you want to build a case against conventional knowledge and wisdom, or prove something outrageous the onus to prove your incredible claims with equally incredible sources is on you.

Nobody is shaming or slighting you, get over it.

I'm not only real, I am sincere, articulate and forthcoming.

You don't pick any of those champions "to do damage", you pick them for their kits or in the rare case of nasus, because he's overtuned. The game is a lot deeper than you think, when someone is picking nasus for example, they are considering his wither, his ability to farm to late midgame, have a strong Q, whether he can hit his TF + defensive item core, and if they can use his split or if his wither is going to be a strong peel such as vs xin zhao or the also listed Jax.

You pick Olaf to win early dragons and heralds, and to pressure the enemy jungler, and for this discount sivir ult in his Q that lets you force fights in his strong early - early mid game, and in that window he most certainly tanks as mundo described earlier. Olaf is picked more for his fast clear and that power window than his kit itself, he is a champion with anti scaling as the game goes on and he becomes less important. He is thought to be an A tier tank early game and later a C tier tank late game, you see him a lot with champions that come online at their one and two item spikes, when (especially NA) teams want to close games early and play the "Proactive" / hopeful style of league that is popular in the region.

You pick trundle to win the tank war, he is a damage sponge that softens their damage sponge and skews teamfights with his pillar.

I could write a 20 page article about any of those champions, but this should be more than enough to not only smite you into the ground, but help raise you from the ashes afterwards (:

Yets4240Jul 19, 20193 votes

I read the utter dumpster fire of your comment until this point "You pick Olaf to win early dragons and heralds, and to pressure the enemy jungler, and for this discount sivir ult in his Q that lets you force fights in his strong early - early mid game" when I realized you don't even know what the kit and abilities of the champions you are talking about do.

There is fucking nothing even close to a Sivir Ult on Olaf's Undertow. Not even remotely close. You seriously have no clue what you're talking about, but have deluded yourself into thinking you know better than everyone else. I suggest you look up the Dunning-Kruger effect, and reflect upon your life.

AlphaM GaymerJul 19, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I read the utter dumpster fire of your comment until this point "You pick Olaf to win early dragons and heralds, and to pressure the enemy jungler, and for this discount sivir ult in his Q that lets you force fights in his strong early - early mid game" when I realized you don't even know what the kit and abilities of the champions you are talking about do.

There is fucking nothing even close to a Sivir Ult on Olaf's Undertow. Not even remotely close. You seriously have no clue what you're talking about, but have deluded yourself into thinking you know better than everyone else. I suggest you look up the Dunning-Kruger effect, and reflect upon your life.

Yes because you don't understand how a perma slow or a group movement speed steroid allow a team to make picks.

You don't understand why olaf is picked or why sivir is picked because you aren't at a mmr where players have reasons to pick champions at all.

It shows. Don't use words like don't even or fucking nothing to try to impress me and make me acknowledge your narrative, i've seen angry posers before, you're not special.

It's one thing to not understand champions or how they fit into a meta, that's fine, but you're not going to argue against someone better than you and look too bright in the process.

PB4UAMEJul 19, 20193 votes

Dude, at this point there is an entire subthread here dedicated to correcting you, and other people trying to explain things to you that clearly you cannot or are choosing not to comprehend. Maybe, just maybe try to understand what they are saying, and how you are wrong, and try to actually learn from it. Maybe the mass downvotes on every single comment you've made here should give you a clue that you're simply spouting bullshit, in a holier than thou manner, which is just all the more hilarious due to the inaccuracy of what you so arrogantly claim (without any substantiation nor support, or evidence beyond your own worthless words).