tanks can and should have strengths beyond CC

Big Lincoln·Aug 22, 2017·29 votes·1,596 views

it's boring to play tanks who only have CC when several of them work within this play style -- it's ridiculous to think Nautilus used to have "too much CC" and now he's not even close

and it's god damned annoying to play against, where every meta tank is a dedicated disabler. lockdown should not be passed out like candy

look at shit like shen W, braum wall, Amumu passive -- these are good mechanics for tanks to have

initiator tanks especially are sorely lacking in variety right now

83 Comments

LankPantsAug 22, 20176 votes

Some ideas I think would be good for differentiating tanks in general.

Zac : Revert. Old Zac already did different shit to other tanks when he went into a fight.

Sejuani : Higher reliance on soft CCs, more slows, possibly add a ground to her kit but with less hard CC in general. I'd even be fine with her losing the knockup on Q TBH, if we just make her more about slows and damage and just let her have her one hard CC be her big engage R again.

Maokai : Maybe play up his warden strengths a bit, give him abilities that gain bonuses if they go through allies and let saplings count as allies in cases where none are around or something. What if instead of his Q he had a line root like Zyra's E but a bit slower that expanded in a circle when it hit an ally or a sapling? That way he'd have a sort of "GTFO my carry" ability. You could mix that in with some other more engage heavy elements and make him a tank who starts out a fight with an engage, probably not as good as some others though then tries to peel back and protect his team more while other tanks would prefer to just pick a guy and sit on him.

Gragas : I reckon you play up Gragas as the tank who actually does things at a range. Shift power out of his E, preferably by making the hitbox actually match the animation and reducing the stun a bit and put some power into his Q. Maybe if you W before Q you could gain a bit of bonus damage on Q (less than W though) have a mini knockback around the centre of Q and consume the W buff, I'm not sure if that would be absolute cancer to play against, but at least it gives him something unique that's not just his gravitational pull on E.

Nautilus : Play up the CC tank again. Since he clearly needs buffs I'd like to see the slow on E increased a bit and his W gain bonus damage to monsters. Overall I don't feel like Naut's in the wrong direction, he at least makes the tradeoff a high CC tank should.

Big LincolnAug 22, 20174 votes

if we're bein honest i'd always enjoyed the idea sej Q should be a charge and not a dash. like a mini Sion ult or.. spirit breaker's Q. i'd like most of her old kit, or at least her W with a little skill added and some new way to apply slows. had an idea for an ult change to keep the old potential team stun with more telegraph to it, too

Maokai i'd like his old ult back but condensed into a brief period, to make him the tank you pick when you want to shit on a wombo combo. so instead of it being some potentially 20 second damage reduction it's, say, 2 or 3 seconds where he redirects damage to himself, and then instead of bursting with it he translates the stored damage into extra DPS through autos

agree on zac, i don't like either of his new spells. he should be snappy and responsive

i think naut should be reverted to pre-s5 where he had less power on his E and his W was his main damage tool. it had more counterplay and was IMO much more interesting than him smashing E until he ran out of mana

grag should be an AP fighter like he used to be, most of his mains play him like that anyway

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

if we're bein honest i'd always enjoyed the idea sej Q should be a charge and not a dash. like a mini Sion ult or.. spirit breaker's Q. i'd like most of her old kit, or at least her W with a little skill added and some new way to apply slows. had an idea for an ult change to keep the old potential team stun with more telegraph to it, too

I don't think Sejuani would actually function as a champion without a dash. She'd wind up like Rammus, too kitable and generally in a state where if she ever reaches you she just autowins because of how hard it is for her to reach you. I don't actually have a huge problem with this other than the fact that it makes Rammus significantly less unique. You could get around this with CC immunity, but I feel like that's just asking for trouble. I hold a very strong opinion that the dash should stay, while a charge may be thematically fitting it's an absolute nightmare from a balance perspective.

I also never bought Riot's reasoning for removing Sejuani's old R. Are we really going to say "Sej's R has too much power" then immediately turn around with the Galio rework? Galio's R has 2x more power than Sejuani's ever had, even release Sejuani with her R that you didn't have to hit didn't have an ult on par with Galio. I don't personally see a problem with Sej's old R coming back TBH, the reason for removing it was utter bullshit anyway. Even if it doesn't come back she needs to have some method of actually impacting a teamfight in an AoE, the whole Sejuani rework was basically Riot looking at a champion and saying "how can we maintain absolutely nothing about her playstyle while at a surface level not changing her abilities that much".

i'd like his old ult back but condensed into a brief period, to make him the tank you pick when you want to shit on a wombo combo. so instead of it being some potentially 20 second damage reduction it's, say, 2 or 3 seconds where he redirects damage to himself, and then instead of bursting with it he translates the stored damage into extra DPS through autos

I could see something like that working well. I do however think that Maokai's W needs to go. I know the whole "but targeted CC counters hypermobility" argument, but I don't personally think it's worth the cost here. His W's such a huge portion of his power budget for such a dull ability too, if you axed it you could do a lot with Maokai. You could play heavily on sapling/ally interactions to make him actually play like a Warden, rather than whatever the fuck he is now.

i think naut should be reverted to pre-s5 where he had less power on his E and his W was his main damage tool. it had more counterplay and was IMO much more interesting than him smashing E until he ran out of mana

That's definitely and option. Naut's one case where I think he should definitely have some bonuses VS Jg monsters though. His clear is probably always going to be godawful without it, with it we might be able to bring him up to bad.

grag should be an AP fighter like he used to be, most of his mains play him like that anyway

That would be pretty easy to do, nerf the stun on E to 0.5 sec from 1 sec, remove the slow on W or at least hit it down significantly and give him some better ratios. I'm still not sure how you ever plan on balancing that with his R though, a huge, non-committal AoE displacement is kinda power for an ult on anything that isn't a tank or a support.

RalanrAug 22, 20173 votes

Galio's R is held back by requiring an ally to be in the right position (in the middle of the enemy team) and has a wind up to allow people to get out.

It's very powerful, but those conditions keep it more in check than Sejuani's old ult.

If you want to make Gragas an AP fighter, you should probably have his only CC be in that ult of his.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

You can miss every single champion with Galio's R and it can still win you a fight. Even in a case where it misses everyone it's still a Shen R which actually grants more durability abet at a shorter range, while also zoning everyone out of a fight.

There's absolutely nothing keeping it in check, it's an absurd ability. If you hit it you can win a teamfight off it, even if you miss it you can win a teamfight off of it. At least when Sej missed her R it did basically nothing.

This was hypocrisy 101 on Riot's part.

RalanrAug 22, 20172 votes

I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult.

Actually hitting your ult as a tank is not 100% necessary to win a teamfight unless you're champions like Amumu and Malphite who are more or less ult bots (Amumu at least brings increased magic damage. Malphite's AS slow doesn't seem noticeable).

If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit.

Galio's ult is kept in check by requiring an ally. Obviously it's not immune to nerfs, but to assume nothing keeps it in check when it has a requirement based around your allies instead yourself is just ignoring a fact to support your opinion.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

I can win a teamfight even if I miss a Sion ult.

I don't really have a way to say this without sounding like a complete arsehole, but that's because of your rank.

At higher ranks people are much better at avoiding Sion's Q. If you miss your R you're never landing a Q unless a teammate CCs first and having to rely on a teammate to CC before you as a tank is not a place you want to be in.

Sion is absolutely reliant on landing his R, but even in a case where you don't land R it still has a larger impact than Sej's old R did when missed because it moves you from point A to point B.

If old Sej missed her R, she still had her Q for engage but she'd be at a disadvantage in comparison to when her R hit. If you truly think she did nothing if her R missed, then you're only proving Riot right when they said her ult took too much power out of her kit.

Can we read the quote again?

At least when Sej missed her R it did basically nothing.

I have emphasised the important word.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

Fair point on the quote, I'll accept that. Missing an ult that's a skill shot usually does mean it does nothing.

Sion's Q does not need to always hit. Sion is not a reliable heavy CC tank, he's meant to threaten CC to zone out opponents or draw aggro. That's the point of him being super telegraphed.

If Sion can get an enemy where he wants them to go by missing his ult, then he used his ult effectively without actually landing it.

I know my rank shows my difference in skill level to other players. Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

Which is honestly why I'm shocked that people want to encourage mechanics that usually revolve around hugging your opponent to death or just spamming abilities to hit targets to make them easier to hit with other abilities.

It's because champs like Sion, Cho'gath and Draven turn to shit in high elo when they're not absurdly broken. They're too easy to play around. Champs need a degree of reliability to actually function when balanced. You can go too far in the other direction and get Garen or Sona and that's just as big of a problem. There's a sweetspot and old Sej was pretty close to it.

"Hug you opponents to death" also isn't a bad mechanic. It creates play, you have time to get out.

RalanrAug 22, 20172 votes

Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them.

Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression.

Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

Hug you to death is basically stat checking. It's not fun to fight against or even as. I don't feel like I'm doing much if all I'm doing to trying to stay close to them.

Statcheck hate is something I've never understood. Someone has to have the best stats, let's say for a second we remove every champ bar Sion, Cho'gath and Draven, Draven now statchecks Cho and Sion.

There's always room to play against them anyway, since statchecks tend to have very strong and obvious team based counterplay.

Do you know what I personally don't find fun to play as? Shitty clunky champions. I don't understand why anyone would subject themselves to playing Sion when all you're doing is testing how retarded your enemies are. I played Cho a few times recently and it's the same shit, if your enemies play well you're fucking worthless.

Unreliability allows for more skill expression. I firmly believe that champions should be more unreliable in their abilities (all abilities, including escapes) in order to better show skill expression.

Otherwise we just have whichever champion is the most reliable always be taking the head of the meta. And frankly that's boring. I don't want to see a Draven or Sion only do well because they are busted, I want to see them do well because they are being played well.

If every champ was like Draven or Sion I'd quit LoL on the spot. I'd never play another game and I'd never look back. I want to play a reliable champion because I don't want to play game after game testing how terrible my enemies are which is what these champs ultimately do when they're not insanely out of line.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

I don't like stat checking because it just removes your ability to really play around people.

I guess if I was to better explain it, it's like fighting a fed Yi or Tryndamere compared to fighting them evenly. On even ground you feel like there's more of a chance even if they stat check you a little. But if fed, their stats are so high that you don't get to play around them.

I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win. I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo.

The ability to avoid everything a fed player has is what I consider healthy because it showcases your skill and your opponent. I want to beat them with my skill over my stats.

That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them.

LankPantsAug 22, 20171 votes

I don't understand how you'd think if only Draven and Sion existed then Draven would just be stat checking Sion. If you mean damage to armor, then sure but that's not how I fully define it being both champions have to play with their mechanics and around the enemy mechanics in order to win.

It wouldn't, in this case Draven would literally start ignoring his own mechanics and just build a fuckton of crit and focus on dodging Sion's abilities over catching his axes because your axes don't matter in a case where Sion can't touch you.

I feel more skill gets involved there rather than fighting a Mundo.

There's more skill playing VS Sion than Mundo, there's not a significant more skill playing as Sion than Mundo. As Sion you're just fishing with your abilities and praying the enemy isn't smart enough to avoid them or your ally CCs them for you.

That's why I'm not a big fan of reliable abilities. I'll still use them, but I don't feel like I'm having much agency with them.

When you use Sion's Q in plat/diamond people run in the way that gets them off the ability the quickest. When you R people generally run back to tower instantly. People understand how to respect Sion and once you respect Sion his impact on a game pretty much ceases assuming he's a balanced champ.

You don't get agency as Sion, you give everybody else a way to play around you. It was the exact same with Cho'gath 3 patches ago. There's a reason I keep bringing up Cho'gath too, he's a perfect example of how unreliability can lead to a very poor design. For him to ever be viable he needs to be absurd, Sion is basically a lesser version of this.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

Except Draven can't dodge a point blank ult unless he's flashing. If he's just not going to use his Q, then he's wasting out on a bunch of damage that Sion can build against and he can still catch Draven by slowing him with his E or hitting him with his W.

There's one problem with your Cho argument: his ult is extremely reliable.

People don't play Cho for his Q, hell I don't think his W matters that much anymore. All that matters are the most reliable parts of his kit being his ult and E. The parts they made broken.

See with Sion, his power is in his unreliable abilities, so it's up to the player with the proper skill and planning to use them.

Yeah Sion isn't meta in high elo, he's mainly played by his mains. That's a good thing because it's a champion that rewards dedication to the playstyle for success.

LankPantsAug 22, 20171 votes

Except Draven can't dodge a point blank ult unless he's flashing. If he's just not going to use his Q, then he's wasting out on a bunch of damage that Sion can build against and he can still catch Draven by slowing him with his E or hitting him with his W.

OK, get into pointblank R range.

People don't play Cho for his Q, hell I don't think his W matters that much anymore. All that matters are the most reliable parts of his kit being his ult and E. The parts they made broken.

Cho's E and R are far from reliable. Kitting is a thing that exists in League, it is counterplay and it is very effective VS Cho'gath. All of Cho'gaths abilities are unreliable, even more so than Sion's.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

OK, get into pointblank R range.

Cho's E and R are far from reliable. Kitting is a thing that exists in League, it is counterplay and it is very effective VS Cho'gath. All of Cho'gaths abilities are unreliable, even more so than Sion's.

Point and click damage is more unreliable than everything in Sion's kit?

What?

Big LincolnAug 22, 20171 votes

i should probably actually tell you what my idea for her ult would be

it'd be a 2-parter; first cast summons a really big cone from her location (roughly the size of MF ult or bigger) that applies a weak slow in the whole area

second cast is the old ult, but with a catch; it's weaker if you don't throw it into the slow field. if you DO throw it, then the stun is stronger and it also erupts the slow field to do heavy damage across the whole area after a short delay, and applies a much stronger slow that sticks with them for a while after they leave

it gives her versatility, it could look really cool, and it offers additional counterplay INCLUDING the original counterplay of someone bodyblocking the projectile to stop their whole team from getting frozen.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

I've always liked "throw out slow field, if you damage enemy in slow field stun them"

Just nice and simple, still good engage, brings back the AoE stun.

Your ult could work but there'd have to be a fair delay between the first and second cast so enemies actually have a chance to walk out. At that point it would kind of risk becoming an absolute clunkfest, you have to be thinking significantly ahead and trying to R for a pick would be pretty arse. It could be OK but I have a feeling that something like this could wind up feeling terrible to use.

RalanrAug 22, 20172 votes

"Old Zac did different shit when he went in"

No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E.

I'm not saying his new kit is better (though I think the ult is). His new Q makes it much more difficult for him to actually fail a gank and it's only redeeming quality is that it actually does require more thought than his old Q.

Imo they should have kept his old Q and changed his W.

Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that, just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

"Old Zac did different shit when he went in"

No. Not really. His ult was basically used for the same reason Wukong's was and his Q was basically just an ability he'd spam for extra damage after landing his E.

His R changed the way he played a teamfight compared to other tanks and yes, it was like Wukong's. It gave him a time of threat, if you could avoid Zac's R for long enough you were generally in a pretty damn good position and it empathised Zac's positional gameplay which the rework gave a solid kick in the teeth.

Permaslow Sejuani doesn't sound fun to fight at all for bruisers and would be royally fucked by any ability to reduce slows, making her laughably weak against certain teamcomps while being overly oppressive in others with little middle ground. Not saying the current one isn't already that,

Why when I say a kit that's more reliant on slow do you instantly jump to permaslow? Old Sejuani had a kit that was more reliant on slows but did not actually have a permaslow. There's ways you could implement a permaslow that aren't terrible, one that stacks up and gives time to react before you can't react. TBH I'm not even convinced that permaslowing's as bad as people make it out to be anyway, Ashe isn't a problem, old Skarner honestly wasn't a huge problem either. I just don't see where people take huge issue with this, yes it has a larger effect on some champions, so does a ground which was the other effect I was suggesting and you don't seem to be flipping out about that.

just saying that if you want Sejuani to provide something unique, slow spam is basically the least unique thing to give her.

What other tank relies primarily on soft CC over hard CC? The only possible answers to this are Nunu who I think has enough inherent kit overlap to differentiate them anyway and Malphite, who relies more on AS slows to shut down DPS than MS slows anyway.

What overlap is there on tanks who rely on 3 hard CCs to function? Zac, Maokai, Leona, Naut, Ali, Galio. It makes a lot of sense to me to have Sej be more of a soft CC tank, it fits her theme, her mains preferred it and it's inherently more unique.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him.

As for Sejuani and permaslows, it's usually because slows without some more followup don't really work out well. You either need to keep the target slowed for it to have an effect for a tank (especially with how much mobility is in the game) or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target. If Sejuani's reward is just slowing the target, then she really needs to slow the target.

As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult.

If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite, a design that Riot wants to give a full VGU mind you. Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them.

If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

As for a tank that's primarily soft CC over hard? Malphite has mainly soft CC in his kit, only his ult has hard. And you know why Malphite gets picked? His ult.

that's why you're all below biglinc on this discussion what he said is to make tanks not cc bots anymore

if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult"

LankPantsAug 22, 20171 votes

if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult"

I think that's pretty much what I was suggesting to be honest.

Higher base kit damage and a reliance on soft CC over hard CC would put Sejuani back into a unique spot for a tank, specifically it would put her into the unique spot she held before the rework.

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Higher reliance on soft CCs, more slows, possibly add a ground to her kit but with less hard CC in general. I'd even be fine with her losing the knockup on Q TBH, if we just make her more about slows and damage and just let her have her one hard CC be her big engage R again.

nop, not seeing unique utility anywhere

except grounded which is a terrible idea, because it works against 70% of league's champs, and tied to a slow making the spell good in any situation

there is a reason cass is top pick since a long time and if singed W wasn't hotfixed to get a higher cd he would still be

Big LincolnAug 22, 20172 votes

i dont need unique utility to need a reason to pick her

she just needs to do something different from other tanks, before rework she was disruptive like them but she was disruptive because of potential damage + being able to jump your ADC and DPS them down

KONO RUBICK DAAug 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=00030001000000000000000000000001,timestamp=2017-08-22T17:00:16.834+0000)

i dont need unique utility to need a reason to pick her

but she was disruptive because of potential damage + being able to jump your ADC and DPS them down

how is that different from other tanks? lul enemy gragas is able to 100-0 my carry

Iota ThetaAug 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Im ur Blitzcrank,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=00030001000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T15:39:12.126+0000)

that's why you're all below biglinc on this discussion what he said is to make tanks not cc bots anymore

if you give sejuani only one cc on her ult, BUT give her other unique strengths on her base kit she wouldn't "just be picked because of her ult"

The catch is making those unique strengths strong or rewarding enough to give them a reason to be picked for more than the old.

If I recall correctly, while he says they should have more strengths than CC, he has also praosed old Sej, Malphite, and Amumu who have super impactful ults and not a lot else going for them..outside Amumu and his magic damage amp, but I don't see him around as much due to AD heavy comps.

Big LincolnAug 22, 20173 votes

old Sej had a pretty strong base kit actually

malphite has really powerful debuffs but he's got crappy sticking power outside a 1v1 because his only mobility is tied to his ult

and Amumu i think is actually perfectly fine right now

Iota ThetaAug 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=0003000100000000000000020000,timestamp=2017-08-22T17:33:02.628+0000)

old Sej had a pretty strong base kit actually

malphite has really powerful debuffs but he's got crappy sticking power outside a 1v1 because his only mobility is tied to his ult

and Amumu i think is actually perfectly fine right now

I just don't like that she was considered a damage/carry tank, because, to me, those are two different concepts. If you're a tank in an MMO raid, for example, you have a lot of defense and utility, you deal less damage overall, and you have taunts and aggro tables (which only 3 tanks have taunts here).

If she had other utility instead of CC and less damage, I wouldn't mind the way her kit was. Although I find "hug your opponent" a rather uninteractive mechanic, both her, Amumu W, and Sunfire Cape.

Malphite doesn't feel that powerful outside of slowing aa's. Problem is he has too much in his ult and too much reliability. Unless you are outside of range, he's guaranteed to hit you with his abilities, which doesn't feel the greatest. He also doesn't have enough to draw enemy attention past his ult, in my opinion. Champs with dashes don't care about his slow, and casters don't care for his E. So basically he is best against immobile autoattackers. I would mind some different CC or utility on him, and think he could actually make decent use of the grounded effect. Take that AP ratio off his ult if you have to (seriously, I hate that ratio. Watching him deal 400 + 100% of his AP to an entire team with a really fast, low counterplay ult is disgusting to me).

I don't mind Amumu's passive. Like Sej and sunfire, I'm just not the biggest fan of just hugging my opponent to deal damage or anything. I also want AP to be a little more prevelant because I actually want to see him around.

Big LincolnAug 22, 20171 votes

that's fair, but i still like the pbaoe part of her

i think they could have done other things to make that more reasonable to have though. Darius is still a champion with most of his damage being targeted, but he has a condition to maximize that damage so it doesn't feel unfair. sejuani should have been given something like that

Iota ThetaAug 22, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nNd9o04E,comment-id=000300010000000000000002000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-22T19:45:14.928+0000)

that's fair, but i still like the pbaoe part of her

i think they could have done other things to make that more reasonable to have though. Darius is still a champion with most of his damage being targeted, but he has a condition to maximize that damage so it doesn't feel unfair. sejuani should have been given something like that

True. It's not PBAoE that I have an issue with per se. It's when it's an aura like that Amumu or old Sej W, where it's on for quite some time and all you have to do is move is when it doesn't sit well with me.

In my mind, I also see it as more punishing to melee champs, since you have to go into that aura in order to actually do your job. Guess it depends on what the ApE is doing. PBAoE, those similar to Maokai Q, Malphite E or W, Amumu E, does have a place though but it needs to find that balnce point between feeling oppressive and unrewarding or uninteractive.

Orrn's W pushes it a little for me, but it's more directional than circular m, and only the last hit causes Brittle, so you can still avoid that to an extent (I also appreciate that only the next immobilizing CC consumes Brittle, including an auto on a brittle champ). At the same time, it deals %current health damage, which I feel could be a better solution for trading as a tank compared to %max health damage.m, since it has less and less kill pressure at the fight goes on, but that's a different topic.

I know my views on it aren't necessarily shared, but I'm glad I at least remembered to give an idea of where I'm coming from.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

Again, Zac's and Wukong's basically had the same effect. Riot wanted to try a different niche with him.

Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle.

Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions.

or you need to provide something that is the reward for slowing the target.

AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place.

If you make Sejuani have a mostly soft CC kit with a hard CC ult, you're basically making another Malphite

Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now.

Slows are just not good anymore, at least if your kit is overly reliant on them.

Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique.

If Nunu didn't have his counter jungle power then he'd be an actual useless champion.

Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Wukong and Zac inherently fill different niches because Wukong is a fighter and Zac is a tank. It doesn't matter if they have an ability that functions similarly because their classes cause massive difference in playstyle.

Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar.

Arctic Assault and Vault Breaker are two very similar abilities but they do not cause Sejuani to play like Vi because there are so many other inherent differences between the two champions.

Very similar sure. They are not ultimate abilities however and VI's is used more selfishly while Sejuani's is better in teamfights.

AoE damage. Solved the fucking problem didn't I? It's almost like Sejuani's kit wasn't a problem in the first place.

Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability.

Except Malphite has enough unique from Sej to stop them having a huge amount of overlap. The thing that most defines Malphite outside of his R is his E, it's a spell that basically fucks over any ADC you can stick to as Malphite. Sejuani would not get a similar spell. Also I don't think Sej should have the same "fuck all the ADs" thing that Malph has going for him. There's already a ton of inherent kit differences here, far more than Sej and Gragas or Sej and Zac right now.

The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate.

Add a ground as well. A slow based kit with a ground somewhere has the potential to be incredibly good and incredibly unique.

Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape.

Nunu's W and E will never be useless. They're both very powerful spells. If Nunu had a more usable R and a different Q he'd probably be a very strong champ.

Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people.

That doesn't mean they are good abilities.

LankPantsAug 22, 20171 votes

Yes the champions had different niches to fill but their ultimates were used for the exact same thing. Making their roles in a teamfight effectively very similar.

Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that.

Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight.

Right because a slowing Sunfire was such an interactive ability.

Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability.

PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it.

The point is not their uniqueness, but the inherent flaw of your only hard CC spell as a tank being your ultimate.

I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default.

Or honestly a little oppressive. Suddenly there's no way to actually escape.

That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal.

Nunu's AS increase isn't that important compared to others and that just leaves his snowball for consistently interacting with people.

You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Try to play a teamfight as Wukong with a standard build by Eing in and Ring before any of your team do anything, there's a very high chance you die pathetically without accomplishing anything because you're just not tanky enough to do that.

Wukong plays a secondary engage role, he's a lot like Yasuo, in a pinch you can maybe pull something out of your arse but you'd really prefer to follow a Malphite or a Zac into a fight.

Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard.

Her W never slowed before her rework, that's like saying "Sej's W is a stunning, high damage, spammable skillshot, how is that fair?". It makes no damn sense because you're talking about two abilities as if they're one ability.

Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape.

PAoEs are also effects that create a lot of play, just like skillshots are effects that create a lot of play. There's very clear counterplay to a PAoE, get the fuck out of it, just like there's very clear counterplay to a skillshot, dodge it.

Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight.

Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it.

That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay.

I disagree with that assertion in the first place. I don't think tanks having hard CC on their ult only is the problem, the problem is that tanks now have 3 hard CCs by default.

My only problem is when the abilities are too reliable. At least Poppy requires a wall or a dash to make the most out of her base kit hard CC (yeah she has her knock back but if she isn't getting a stun for it then you're already dead or she fucked up).

That's making the assumption that there's already no way for Ashe to escape the slow. Assuming the ability's balanced correctly everybody can escape. What adding a ground does is balance the field, it becomes as easy for Ashe to escape Sejuani as Ezreal because Sej doesn't need some insane slow to hold down Ezreal.

ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage.

You might want to look up support Nunu and how it worked. You literally played as a Zeal for your ADC. The ability's not that much weaker now than it was then. It's more just that supports do more now, still this is an ability that carried Nunu against champs like Janna in pretty much her current state ability wise.

And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle.

LankPantsAug 22, 20171 votes

Except Wukong's and Zac's aren't engage ults. They are disruption ults. If a Zac was using his R to engage over his E then he fat fingered his keyboard.

Zac has the tools to engage and Wukong doesn't. You're pulling at straws at this point and you understand that. Zac and Wukong are inherently different from each other because of how different the rest of their kits are. You could copy/paste Zacs R onto Wukong and they would still play differently.

Her W may not have slowed, but with her E it was the same effect. Ice sunfire cape.

Her W may not stun, but with her E or an Irelia it has that effect. Fuck Irelia and her 4 AA point and click stun whenever she has a Sejuani on her team.

Except passive AoE effects don't have as wide a pool of champions that can effectively use that counterplay in order to win a fight.

Everyone can dodge a skill shot. That doesn't mean anyone can effectively fight someone that's doing constant AoE damage whenever they try to make a melee attack. Plus if you had it slow beforehand (or if old Sejuani's E was off cooldown) then she makes it directly harder to do the counterplay towards it.

That's like a skill shot that slows you while traveling to you. It reduces its own counterplay.

ADCs have a movespeed of 330 at base (I think) and don't go past 400 unless they have air dragons. If your grounded slows allow someone like an adc to escape as easily as someone naturally faster (which is technically impossible since the faster person would escape first) then your slow is garbage.

All of this can be rebutted with a single phrase, LoL is a team game. A champion doesn't have to offer you personal counterplay to be fair, what do you do against a Zed as Kog'maw? If your team does nothing to help you there's actually nothing you can do, he doesn't offer you counterplay, he offers your team counterplay.

Old Sej was a lot like this, you couldn't personally counterplay her unless you could either dash away from her or turn and outstat her. She wasn't very hard to peel though, should your team drop a decent slow on her she's probably not going to keep up with you and if they knocked her away she just had to give up.

Peeling for your team is a form of counterplay, if it wasn't League would have a lot of very broken champions.

And other people do that better. Hence why we don't see Nunu support over Nunu jungle.

Nunu support is a historical relic, not directly forced out by any large scale nerfs but rather made irrelevant by meta shifts.

The simple fact it existed however is a testament to how strong of an ability Nunu's W is. It gives a fuckton of stats, saying it's not good is like saying adding 3 daggers to your inventory isn't good.

RalanrAug 22, 20171 votes

Again, Zac and Wukong's ults were used for the same purpose of teamfight disruption. Their kits are different, but the way they used their ults felt too similar to Riot.

As for the team game part, yes I know. But Sejuani has a history of being really oppressive without needing her team to back her up in a 1v1. Giving her a bunch of slows and more damage might just make her a top laner over a jungler or make it so it's impossible to run from her if she catches you out.

I'm not saying new Sejuani is great. I find her design awful. But it's not like old Sejuani was never an issue and it feels like people want the worst parts of her kit back.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

As for the team game part, yes I know. But Sejuani has a history of being really oppressive without needing her team to back her up in a 1v1.

Not really. Her curve made that not a thing that happened often. In the early game every bruiser or mage and many ADCs would destroy her because she just lacked early power.

In the late game sure, she'd 1v1 a mage, carry, tank, support, assassin and certain fighters without counterplay if she caught you. What the fuck are you doing away from your team in the late game for a Sejuani to catch you 1v1 though.

Giving her a bunch of slows and more damage might just make her a top laner over a jungler or make it so it's impossible to run from her if she catches you out.

Only if you're retarded enough to give her that damage early game. Sej top was never played before the rework (it's better now than it was before BTW) because she couldn't trade and she couldn't farm.

But it's not like old Sejuani was never an issue and it feels like people want the worst parts of her kit back.

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/sejuani

With the sole exception of when Cinderhulk was actually retarded nobody banned Sejuani. People didn't view her as a problem, she was below a 1% banrate for most of her existence, I believe she rested around a 0.2% banrate, basically a margin of error because nobody viewed her as a problem.

The simple fact is a straight Sejuani revert would be a colossal improvement and Sejuani mains want that back overwhelmingly anyway. Why wouldn't people suggest that Sejuani gets any part of her prerework kit back considering how cancer she is now, long term players prefer old Sej and community at large gave 0 fucks about Sej pre rework.

Wet DrymanAug 22, 20171 votes

Gragas is already unique in that he has AoE, multidirectional displacement tool that enables champions that rely/have easier time fighting isolated targets do their job without being cucked by focus or other teamplay dumb shit. It may be generalistic (cuz CC is always fine to have) but he pays for that with unreliability and that it can backfire on Gragas's team if enemy capitalizes on it (pulling yourself to his carries, pull yourself to a safe spot where you can still inflict damage quite safely etc.). To be real his ult is one of the most unreliable things in game.

His problem is just having Fighter kit that got unnecessary tools in order to dump him into Tank class, just by removing hard CC from his standard spells would do the trick of returning him to his intentional role. His ult isn't problematic for a Fighter to have due to amount of counterplay, unreliability and things that both sides can do to make use of it. It's not even uncommon for Fighters to have powerful teamfighting ultimates (Kled has point and click charge that also gives huge utility to his team, J4 can encase people, zone them and block with the help of normal walls, Camille has a much more reliable AoE ult that knocks away people near her and interrupts them, Vi knocks aside champions on her way while heavily locking down one of them without much counterplay, also there is Xin, Wukong and Hecarim) so with all the drawbacks it has currently it fits perfectly. If something gones wrong you can tinker with range (cast range, radius range or even both if its needed).

Asayake 5150glowAug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted} : I reckon you play up Gragas as the tank who actually does things at a range. Shift power out of his E, preferably by making the hitbox actually match the animation and reducing the stun a bit and put some power into his Q. Maybe if you W before Q you could gain a bit of bonus damage on Q (less than W though) have a mini knockback around the centre of Q and consume the W buff, I'm not sure if that would be absolute cancer to play against, but at least it gives him something unique that's not just his gravitational pull on E.

NO! No more damage on Gragas Q. That needs a nerf, not a buff.

How about a fully charged Q does like an nearsight or something. Like you're so drunk you can't see.

Teridax68Aug 22, 20175 votes

I agree with this, and I think part of the problem comes from how all-encompassing the vanguard subclass is. It's technically meant to designate offensive tanks, but there is such a large variety to what offensive tanks can do, i.e. initiate, disrupt, lock down, and so on, that trying to make newer vanguards do all of that at the same time has led to very samey designs with far too much hard CC. In spite of his once-legendary crowd control, Nautilus is mostly focused on single targets, and cannot effectively disable multiple opponents at once. By contrast, champions like Galio, Zac and now Ornn can continuously lock down multiple enemies at a time, while also possessing more mobility, more damage and comparable reliability. Whereas Nautilus once set an upper limit for CC that was considered undesirable to exceed, modern vanguard designs have set an upper limit that is practically impossible to exceed, short of giving newer designs AoE knockups on every ability, including their passives. This also creates a pretty crowded design space where it's difficult for newer vanguards to express themselves in a unique way, and has also largely contributed to an environment where melee champions cannot operate without spending most of their in-combat time getting hard-CCed.

In order to remedy this, I think we need to start making a distinction between lockdown tanks, i.e. champions who are very good at locking down one target and one target only, and disruptor tanks, i.e. champions who can affect multiple enemies at a time without necessarily outright disabling them. In order for disruptor tanks to be valuable without laying down as much crowd control, Riot needs to start looking really hard into interesting debuffs: Amumu's magic damage amp is a good example, and Ornn's Brittle effect would be similarly good if it didn't amplify CC on a kit already loaded with knockups. Historically, Riot has shied away from debuffs because stat reductions didn't feel fun or impactful, but that still leaves plenty of room for other interesting effects, such as Stoneborn Pact's healing rune, damage marks like Leona or Ornn's, impairments to select effects like healing, shielding, projectiles, basic attacks, and so on. In the case of disruptor tanks that are part-juggernaut, which I think is the case for Sejuani (or, at least, pre-rework Sejuani), part of their disruption could be expressed through strong damage of their own. In essence, a lockdown tank should draw focus from the enemy team because they'd be taking one of their allies out of the equation (which should encourage them to focus priority targets like the mage or marksman, rather than the enemy fighter or tank), whereas a disruptor tank should draw focus from the enemy team because otherwise they'd keep putting them at a constant disadvantage by messing up their capabilities.

To me, one of the most fundamental aspects of a tank is that they want to take damage. No matter how much crowd control you pile onto their kit, if a tanky champion does not care whether or not they're being focused, they're not a tank, they're a fighter. This is why I think most modern vanguards like Galio, Maokai (who shouldn't be a vanguard in the first place), Sejuani and Zac are actually just CC-heavy bruisers, because literally none of their offensive power is conditional upon them taking damage, and many of them apply so much CC that their gameplay ends up focusing on preventing the enemy from applying damage at all, rather than drawing it upon themselves. This is also one of the reasons why I think the update worsened the confusion between fighters and tanks, because their playstyles ended up becoming even more similar. In order to create truly successful tanks, I think Riot needs to look at them with a completely new mentality, and needs to start making their power conditional upon drawing threat from the enemy team. In the case of Wardens this is likely going to be easier, as champions like Braum and Shen are designed to throw themselves in harm's way in order to block damage for their allies (though I feel Shen's W might need to change in order to redirect damage to him, as it currently anti-synergizes with his innate and forces him to have sub-par stats), but in the case of vanguards, that means they need to start giving the enemy team more room to actually fight back against them.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

I agree with this, and I think part of the problem comes from how all-encompassing the vanguard subclass is. It's technically meant to designate offensive tanks, but there is such a large variety to what offensive tanks can do, i.e. initiate, disrupt, lock down, and so on, that trying to make newer vanguards do all of that at the same time has led to very samey designs with far too much hard CC.

I've mentioned this before but there's a logical subclass between Vanguard and Juggernaut. Champions with very high AoE damage, moderate mobility and who generally function as primary engage.

This class would be Amumu Galio Gragas Hecarim JarvanIV Rammus Renekton Sejuani (post revert please) Shyvana Singed (maybe) Skarner

They all fit together better than some of them fit in their own classes. Probably would have stopped Sej being butchered if Riot saw it too.

Teridax68Aug 22, 20173 votes

While it's true that there are quite a few champions with mobility, AoE damage and engage in practice, I'd be wary of making that a dedicated subclass, in part because that description alone comes quite close to divers, who are also tanky damage champions with engage, but also because I feel a lot of it comes from damage or CC being tacked onto abilities that don't need much of it. Because the core weaknesses of juggernauts are a lack of engage and mobility, I feel pointing out champions who can achieve comparable damage and durability, while having neither of those weaknesses, says more about those kits being overloaded and having too few weaknesses, than it does about truly establishing a proper subclass.

Additionally, I feel grouping those champions together doesn't necessarily paint the clearest picture of what such a subclass would do: Jarvan technically has AoE on all of his offensive abilities, but generally wants to go kill a single target, and by contrast Amumu really wants to catch as many enemies as possible. Champions like Renekton are picked for their kill threat, whereas champions like Gragas or even Singed are much more valued for their disruption. I definitely agree that Sejuani should have been made a tank-juggernaut hybrid, but I don't think there are that many more champions out there like her, who feel equally comfortable with both disrupting the enemy team and killing them all themselves.

LankPantsAug 22, 20172 votes

Additionally, I feel grouping those champions together doesn't necessarily paint the clearest picture of what such a subclass would do: Jarvan technically has AoE on all of his offensive abilities, but generally wants to go kill a single target, and by contrast Amumu really wants to catch as many enemies as possible. Champions like Renekton are picked for their kill threat, whereas champions like Gragas or even Singed are much more valued for their disruption. I definitely agree that Sejuani should have been made a tank-juggernaut hybrid, but I don't think there are that many more champions out there like her, who feel equally comfortable with both disrupting the enemy team and killing them all themselves.

Look at how shittily the Vanguard class fits together. Amumu is in the same class as Nautilus. Those two are far further apart than Amumu and Renekton, especially in teamfights where the two do exactly the same thing with slightly different tools. They go in, drop AoEs, much of which is damage and draw aggro, that's what every champ in that class does in a teamfight, it's actually very uniform except maybe Singed who's about half way there on everything.

I'd be wary of making that a dedicated subclass, in part because that description alone comes quite close to divers, who are also tanky damage champions with engage

The distinction is AoE VS single target. That's actually very important, it completely changes how a champion plays. You could probably throw most of the champions in that list in the diver class though and have it make sense.

Teridax68Aug 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Look at how shittily the Vanguard class fits together. Amumu is in the same class as Nautilus.

Oh, believe me, I completely agree with this, which is why I also want to split vanguards into two separate subclasses. If nothing else, though, at least the common thread to all vanguards is that they're offensive tanks, whereas the combination of mobility, AoE damage and initiation potential feels more like Riot's attempt at defining catchers, i.e. by rounding up a whole bunch of mostly unrelated champions and reverse-engineering a subclass by finding some commonality among them, than a full subclass in its own right, capable of defining its design strongly enough to produce more members.

{quoted}

The distinction is AoE VS single target. That's actually very important, it completely changes how a champion plays. You could probably throw most of the champions in that list in the diver class though and have it make sense.

This is true, but I also feel AoE damage does not necessarily equate to an AoE playstyle. Vi, for example, has AoE damage on almost all of her abilities, but is very focused on single targets, much like Jarvan or Renekton. Similarly, while Rammus does technically have an AoE damage ult, his core loop revolves around locking down a single target and damaging them as much as possible. Out of the champions in the initial lineup, I'd say only Amumu, Sejuani (pre-rework) and Singed truly want to get in the middle of the enemy team and affect all of them at once, and even then, Singed's active disruption is mostly focused on single targets, even if he wants to spread his damage to as many people at once. Because of this, I agree that there are vanguard-juggernaut hybrids out there, Sejuani being a prime example, but I'm not sure if they're worth grouping into a subclass of their own.

KoKobotoAug 22, 20173 votes

We're getting Ornn so that's new. Breaks terrain, brittle, builds items. I'd like more tanks to counter marksmen stuff.

A/S slows, blinds, auras.

Big LincolnAug 22, 20172 votes

ornn's brittle would be great if he didn't have 2 knockups of his own

RalanrAug 22, 20172 votes

It'd be great if brittle didn't effect displacements.

KloqdqAug 22, 20172 votes

I think we should focus in on the unique ways of making a tank like you mentioned, Braum Wall, Mumu Passive, Shen W. Ways that provide team utility and are very different mechanics but aren't just, I knock up that bitch. I stun that hoe. I slow that thot. Whatever you like. CC is good but when a champion is only CC, they all just blend together. We need tanks that do different shit from one another.

I hope Riot makes more tanks with something different about them.