Flat out, ADCs and AD characters in general do to much damage with auto attacks for them being point and click. I think that the achievable AD amounts need to be lowered so autos dont do a ton of damage. Seriously 1300 dmg on hit is NOT okay. In exchange, scalings from AD need buffed. Ad should be a small number with huge multipliers. Ap should be a huge number with small multipliers.
sketchy16 votesFlat out, ADCs and AD characters in general do to much damage with auto attacks
but that's literally what an adc is. if you don't like getting 3 shotted from crits, either make sure he/she dosent get fed, or play a tank. and btw adc always have to bet on late game because early all adc except ones like 
are seriously trash early game. adding more scaling wouldn't help, because all they pretty much do all game is scale. plus, ad has always been a lower stat then ap, its the crit plus how fast it can dish out that makes it effective (meaning small with big multipliers)
Terozu13 votesThats NOT what an adc is. First off Adcs are meant to counter tanks. Second they are a dps role not a burst role. They should deal less total damage and more percent current health just not fucking true dmg.
sketchy13 votesthis is exactly the point I'm grasping at, DPS means stay alive to deal damage, its not burst, just really really fast attacking. bursting is button mashing abilities until GG. and dealing percent health would make adc more assassin based, and going as far as giving the enemy more room to breath, which is exactly what you don't want as an adc meaning ones like 
would always come out on top because he goes true damage and excellent burst anyway (that's literally his forte).
just out of curiosity, what champs do you usually play/ are up against anyway?
Terozu5 votesIt does not mean staying alive on their own. It means damage per second, they should have to ve protected, tgey should never out burst a burst mage ir an assassin.
Rocnation982 votesdid you just say twitch does true damage as an example...
It Hertz When IP1 votesI mean, technically he does deal true damage, it's just literally less than passive health regen.
Kaeblen2 votesit's worse.
he posted Twitch's true damage as an example of burst...
The Yetii Rider2 votesIncorrect. The primary function of marksmen has always been and will always be sieging.
Their damage to champions will never be as relevant as their ability to destroy turrets. Reducing their AD lowers their ability to do that, and none of their ratios contribute to it.
Terozu1 votesThe primary focus of adcs is to deal ranged damage ivertime with a few exceptions like Jhin and Ezreal who instead have cycled burst. Champs whos primary effect is to siege are called siege champs like Caitlynn. Theres a reason shes called the siege marksmen.
Their damage to turrets right now is already less than to champs because of crits. You can do triple ur ad value to champs, not to turrets.
The Yetii Rider1 votesNo one calls Caitlyn "the siege marksman".
You are simply incorrect about the role of marksmen. We have ranged DPS champions. We have 
. None of these champions are considered mandatory like the ADC role is. Here's a quote from Riot in Patch 6.4, where they had to basically intervene quicker than they usually would (this was before they hotfixed bad champs the week after they were released):
". While the below section looks like a lot, it's mostly light adjustments to make up for the sacrifices the Virtuoso makes relative to other marksmen, especially around skirmishes and siege scenarios."
This patch was huge. People like to say that Jhin has always been strong since he was released but they have a selective memory. Jhin was a horrible mid laner and a terrible marksman in the bot lane. His inability to bring down towers quickly because of his hard capped attack speed (back then I think it was always 0.68, instead of 0.68-0.9 based on level like it is now) was a huge detriment to his team and resulted in a terrible win rate.
So what did Riot do? They made Jhin's Death in Four Acts ability work on towers. Jhin is the only champion in the game capable of using an ability that is coded as a critical strike on turrets. This was specifically implemented for Jhin to help him siege because if he could not siege there was absolutely zero reason to select him over a champion like Ashe.
Similarly, Ezreal received a change where he could benefit from his own Essence Flux attack speed buff. Why would they give you this? In what scenario would Ezreal voluntarily blow his dash and an extra 90 mana just to give himself 25% attack speed instead of continuing to auto attack and Q an enemy? ...Never, that's when. The interaction is only useful when Ezreal is sieging, when there is no need for his escape and when he has plenty of time and peace of mind to line up this skill shot dash.
So no. Marksmen are here to kill turrets. They need AD to kill turrets. Increasing the ratios of their abilities will not offset whatever DPS cut they take if you nerf all their items in regards to killing turrets.
Terozu1 votesOk you have officially lost any and all credibility with that first sentence. Caitlynn is known for her sieging ability. Its what her traps are for. Its what headshot is for. Caitlynn is one of the best siegers in the game. As for ezreal his w is a buff to all allies hit, abd itd be used when hes chasing a kill or dueling, it has nothing to do with seiging. Why would, when sieging, you blow your best escape? Being able to crit turrets does not make Jhin a sieger, if it did, hed be the only sieger period. The reason they gave it to him was for his thematic. Most adcs in fact are designed to defend against sieges, farming from under turret. Your arguments dont make sense, and you seem to think Cait isnt a sieger. Also jhins atk speed isnt hard capped. He simply has to reload.
The Yetii Rider1 votesOk you have officially lost any and all credibility with that first sentence. Caitlynn is known for her sieging ability. Its what her traps are for. Its what headshot is for. Caitlynn is one of the best siegers in the game. As for ezreal his w is a buff to all allies hit, abd itd be used when hes chasing a kill or dueling, it has nothing to do with seiging. Why would, when sieging, you blow your best escape? Being able to crit turrets does not make Jhin a sieger, if it did, hed be the only sieger period. The reason they gave it to him was for his thematic. Most adcs in fact are designed to defend against sieges, farming from under turret. Your arguments dont make sense, and you seem to think Cait isnt a sieger. Also jhins atk speed isnt hard capped. He simply has to reload.
Jhin's attack speed is absolutely hard capped. Do you know what the word 'cap' means? It means it does not change. The numerical amount that Jhin gets for leveling up cannot increase, ever. If you buy 
, Jhin's attack speed will not change. If you buy 
, Jhin's attack speed will not change. That is what the phrase 'hard capped' means, it means a number that cannot increase in the normal way because of specific coding made by Riot.
Now, Death in Four Acts does make it so Jhin's Attack DAMAGE will increase based on his bonus attack speed, but that is not the same thing as increasing his attack speed.
I have already posted the exact quote Riot made in patch 6.4 when they changed Jhin's passive. They specifically said they altered his passive to improve his ability to siege. Want the quote again? Here it is:
"While the below section looks like a lot, it's mostly light adjustments to make up for the sacrifices the Virtuoso makes relative to other marksmen, especially around skirmishes and siege scenarios"
Here is the source: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-64-notes
There is nothing thematic about changing Jhin's passive. It was done as a balance change. To help Jhin kill turrets. Because Jhin needed help sieging. Because every marksman needs to siege. That is their primary role.
As for "making Jhin a sieger", no, the ability to crit turrets does not make him a specialist in that regard. What it does is give him the MINIMUM amount of damage to turrets necessary for him to occupy a role as a marksman, because every marksman needs to siege. Every single one. What do you not understand about this.
If Ezreal is dueling, why would he Essence Flux to increase his attack speed instead of firing it at the target for immediate damage?
He blows his escape because he's autoing turrets when no one else is around. Because you siege after you've won a team fight.
Likiung1 votesSorry to burst your bubble but Ad's do not build to seige ad's build crit which does not apply to towers they accel at seiging due to their range easily able to leave and gain entry to tower hits. Ad's build a combination of both due to the fact that crit gives AS but completely throw away health regen, armor, MR and in many cases movespeed and their early game to accomplish this along with their base stats doing the same.
Ahris7 votesThey are supposed to be trash all game for being point click reliable damage.
sketchy13 votesyou forgot the part where because they have so much damage, they receive so much damage. and the part where adc cant do sh!t on their own, not without a reliable engage, so technically its not only point and click
Ahris7 votesOther champs also receive so much damage. Your point? Adc if played well no apc can probably reach them except for champs like Xerath or Ziggs.
Other champs also cannot do anything on their own without reliable engage. Other roles are just as relient on their team as adc.
sketchy12 votesbut your basically comparing someone whos good at AA to someone who is literally meant to burst, and I don't remember aa applying stuns/taunts/fears or any of the bigger CC. not to mention you actually get some versatility in your builds, cause pretty much all ADC must build 
to 
Mhihnj2 votesNo versatility?
They got items for nearly everything .
Need to counter burst? 
Need sustain? 
crits? 
(+extra burst)
Waveclear/AOE?
Tank shredding/Grievous wounds?
1v1 dueling potential?
AD caster? 
a second life +armor+AD ? 
we got that too.
Infinity is as core on ADC as morello's is on mages.
SanKakU1 votesWhile it might be true that IE is core on ADC, it doesn't mean that Marksmen must buy IE. Many melee champions are considered ADC such as Yasuo, and many marksmen don't scale very well with Infinity Edge, but it also might not be a terrible purchase for them depending on their build. Obviously, if they are going AP, IE will be somewhat ineffective compared to if they were going AD without AP.
SanKakU1 votesTry going to graphs sometime and check only damage taken and damage mitigated. Many champions, if not all can build so their mitigated damage number is higher. Also, shielding from allies on self will count towards this number, for what it's worth. It's not incredibly hard to get the ratio looking very good for tanking power. Unfortunately, it doesn't reflect well necessarily on the grade system to play that way.
UnboundHades1 voteslol xerath is pretty much terrible into adcs since you have to land your e to even have a chance and if they do anything to dodge it your dead
Teridax684 votesWhile I do think marksman damage needs to be nerfed overall, I think shifting some power away from AD and onto attack speed in their itemization would allow them to deal similar DPS without each individual autoattack being so devastating. In addition, I also feel it would help if the Kircheis Shard line got reworked, as it's a prime source of upfront burst on marksmen as well: other players have suggested this before, but it might be better for energized attacks to begin energizing while in combat, just like Fury, and decay out of combat, so that players could still deal some more damage with it, just not upfront. It would kind of mess up Statikk Shiv and RFC, both of which are intended to be first-strike effects, but seeing how those procs tend to promote burstier, and less healthy gameplay overall, it might be better to update those items anyway.
RavenMagus3 votesI am all for seeing a Kircheis update like that.
I honestly think Stattik Shiv is the most confused and ridiculous item ever. An item that is intended to be built for waveclear and AOE damage and sustained damage via attack speed is also an incredible up-front single target burst item. It's absurd.
ProfDrDeath2 votesI've thought that ever since they introduced the item and it began warping ADC itemization.
Especially after the Marksmen Update, when it got comparable stat power to the other Crit items.
GayFluffyUnicorn1 votesBEcause riot is confused themselves. First it started as you said as a waveclear item which some adcs are simply not supposed to have, once again covering up intented class weaknesses. Then a few patches ago riot massively buffed the champion damage and said it should be the to go item for upfront burst ????? And nerfed the waveclear part of it,
It Hertz When IP2 votesI am only against that because of RFC, which I use (whenever I do get it) for the AA range boost. If they just removed the damage part of that, I'd be cool with it.
Teridax681 votesI mostly agree with this. While personally I'm not the biggest fan of autoattack range increases, I agree that RFC offering a range bonus on the first strike is fine, and having the item open up with an AA range boost, perhaps even have it persist for a short duration, and then begin energizing, could be useful for marksmen who want to get combat started but don't necessarily have the best initiation.
Kaìju2 votesSomething like lasts 1.5 seconds? That would be nice, make it so that you can't just rush it since you would only have the attack speed for one hit but if you get it later you can get two off. Something like that?
Kaìju2 votesAgreed. Would raising the attack speed cap be an option and put more power into raising their attack speed scaling?
Teridax682 votesI personally would be in favor of that, though currently there are two main obstacles to it: the first is that the attack speed cap exists for animation purposes, as things start getting a little freaky and disjointed when you approach that cap (Lulu's passive already starts to trip over itself past the 2 attack speed mark), and the second is that there are still quite a few on-hit effects that offer flat damage, namely Recurve Bow and all of its upgrades, Nashor's Tooth, and Thornmail as a reverse on-hit effect.
In order to accommodate raising or removing the attack speed cap, some work would have to be done to make sure those mechanics run smoothly. While animations might be more of an issue, personally I think on-hit damage itself just needs to be reworked, as it's literally just AD that doesn't factor into ability scalings: Nashor's would likely be fine even at much higher attack speeds, but Recurve Bow could likely do with changes to its passive, and BoRK/Bloodrazor could also use adjustments too (they should probably use Giant Slayer's effect instead). Wit's End and Guinsoo's are both items with major design flaws that I think need a rework anyway, as they're far too niche and offer a combination of stats that interest only very few champions.
Meanwhile, Thornmail should likely revert to scaling off of a percentage of damage taken, rather than flat damage, as currently it already screws over on-hit champions without doing much to champions with slower attack speeds, and its damage is too strong early and not particularly visible late. This is assuming damage even needs to be a thing on tanks, and I honestly think the item would be better off if it lost the damage, kept its Grievous Wounds (as long as that mechanic continues to exist, anyway), and instead jacked up its Cold Steel effect significantly.
Ok sure but why3 votesOh boy, let's make auto attacks even more obsolete!!
Terozu24 votes1200 dmg in one auto=obsolete got it
Ok sure but why1 votesYou mean the damage which gets reduced to 300 with 
by a tank with 4k health who can out-damage the carry with his abilities' base stats alone?
Terozu1 votesExcept no. Botrk, Last Whisper, Runaans, I.E., Essence Reaver, Statik Shiv/RFC. You cant block the magic dmg and the physical you cant out sustain them, etc. Etc. The problem there is most people are just bad at itemizing against tanks.
Ok sure but why1 votesYeah, and once you get all those items, you'll do significantly less damage to the squishier targets like 
and OTHER ADC's, who will burst you down much faster than you can.
ADC's have to choose between countering tanks and countering squishies with their builds, whilst tanks, supports, mages, fighters, juggernauts, and EVERYONE ELSE can counter EVERYONE ELSE with the exact same build.
Terozu1 votesThen you give up a crit item and get Deaths dance. Drop statik shiv/ rfc, and get dd instead. And a lot of adcs could drop runaans for BT.
Rengooo2 votesMmm, I like the idea, it would also make each individual champion more balancable.
Blåbæret2 votesADCs need more ramp up time, that's the main problem imo.
Vanic9982 votesHow about if crit deals 50% additional physical damage instead of 100%?
Chaos Milk Tea2 votesLol that's super backward. Just lower the damage of autos dont change literally everything else.
Geologydude1 votesThat seems incredibly obtuse. If ADC damage is too high, then you don't go and change every item in the game, and every AD scaling ability in the game to balance that. You make the simplest change possible.
Like lowering crit damage from 200% to 180% or something similar.
Kaeblen1 votesyou say that like it isn't a fundamental change to game systems...
Geologydude1 votesA change like that would obviously be substantial, and I'm not saying that it should happen. I was going off of the original post's premise that crit ADC damage is to high because of the amount of ad.
Changing the amount of damage that a crit does would be a smaller change when compared to what OP wants. It would still be a pretty large change though.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThere is no champ that normally deals 1,3 k with a single auto or two ._.
Draven might do it with 6 items of high AD and crit thanks to his Q, Caitlyn might also do it with a high AD/critbuild on a trapshot crit.
But no one else will ever be close to that.
When i play Xayah i am happy if i get 250-400 per hit, 400-600 if i crit ._.
Terozu1 votesBuild Crit dmg runes. Crits do 300% dmg, on top of 500 ad equals out to 1500. Thats on xayah btw, i love her gameplay, but melting whole teams isnt healthy.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThat's only worth it for a extreme lategame though, average game ends around 3-4 items.
And with her limited range and the fact that you´d commonly go a build like 
/
it's not that easy to ever get enemies clustered long and packed enough to melt them with feathers and E i think.
My usual style is usually to aim to feather smack two people them auto them down before moving on to the next if i am able.
Only marksman that i can think of that melts entire teams in a single go without it being unusual is Twitch and sometimes kog if they are extremely clustered.
Terozu1 votesDo you know why they melt so hard? Its not them by themselves. Its Botrk. Build BOTRK, I.E, RFC/SS, PD, BT, DD. It may not be 100% crit chance, its only 80% but your also doing 8% of current health on hit. Have 47% lifesteal, dont need boots because of PD mixed with her W, has a ton of attack speed for setting up feathers, and the dmg resistance of DD. Thats about 320 AD, dealing 960 on crits, in addition to 8% of their current health, 2 crits possible in 1 second. They die. Fast.
Thefrostyviking1 votesThat's not entire teams at once though, single target and what Twitch does is different [slayer-jinx-wink]