Caitlyn still has a 53% winrate and a 31% pickrate in diamond elo.

Dasdi96·Jul 2, 2017·54 votes·2,549 views

Normally I don't use winrates for arguments but this ridiculous. She also has a 54% banrate in diamond, meaning most of the players don;t want to play against her. She is still extremely oppressive in lane with the ability to hold you hostage under tower with her traps. Despite her insane early game, she has a solid midgame and an insane lategame just because she is an adc. She needs an actual nerf with these statistics.

86 Comments

NinjaGuy69Jul 2, 20179 votes

Don't worry man. Riot's currently nerfing her attack speed on the PBE (again). That'll definitely curb the ridiculous damage her headshots deal. /sarcasm

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 2, 20179 votes

it will curve how quickly she can proc the counter for the passive for headshots on autos making it where you have to rely on the traps or using the net to proc it and it will nerf her over all damage out put as a auto attack reliant champ

NinjaGuy69Jul 2, 20178 votes

it will curve how quickly she can proc the counter for the passive for headshots on autos

Maybe in the early to mid game where she doesn't have a lot of bonus attack speed from items. But after she gets 4 items in the mid to late game, she'll be pretty much the same Caitlyn.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 2, 201711 votes

ok so by LATE GAME as a 4 item adc she would still be strong where all ADCS are strong

so we should completely gut her?

oh and by having less attack speed to begin with that means others adcs DPS and AS would be stronger therefore being and indirect buff to their power

and out side of lane phase she does all her damage from autos and crits not from abilities therefore slower attack speed would really hurt her

NinjaGuy69Jul 2, 20174 votes

None of that changes the fact that her damage is unreasonable. Her headshots are the problem here, not her attack speed but of course they nerf her in a way that no one asked for instead of nerfing the thing that's actually making her broken.

Get back to me when that movement speed nerf on Fiora stops her from being a broken, oppressive champion. The balance team is literally a meme.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 2, 20173 votes

once again.... having lower attack speed over all means even with the same items as another adc she would still have lower attack speed even at 4 items

and by the 4 item mark clearly its late mid game or late game 25mins+ into game where cait isnt using abilities for damage she is auto attacking... and by having less attack speed she would still proc her headshot passive counter less often

also they already made it where item 3085 dont proc headshots so that is out for her

cait is now subjected to a crit build being item 3031 item 3094 item 3046 which her autos will do more and her headshot does more damage with crit chance

3TWarriorJul 2, 20172 votes

at the same time, that lower attack speed usually means one less attack every 5 seconds late game (which in this case would not be a problem due to her range) and one attack like every 8 seconds or so early game

it does make it where she can not directly duel another marksman...the problem is, that's cait's thing...she is never supposed to directly duel the opposing marksman unless she has her attack speed items.

instead, she harrasses from range and with the right support, punishes aggression and attempts to farm

SenzaRespiro89Jul 2, 20171 votes

You just completely proof his point: They do not nerf what is actually broken And what is broken is her early game. She is a lane bully who transistions into a lategame monster. There is no reason to nerf her lategame when her early game is the problem. OR if they nerf her lategame, than SIGNIFICANT and make her stronger midgame. One of the two things. This is just fiora treatment right now, give a placebo nerf so people finally shutup about her instead of actually trying to fix broken champs.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

cait has never been BROKEN

you wanna example of broke go see kassidin in season 3/4 when he had a 100% pick ban rate and like a 70% win rate

that is broken

a champ with a 53% win rate who has clear weaknesses and counter play and counter picks ISNT BROKEN

RalanrJul 3, 20171 votes

Though a very have play rate does indicate she might be a bit too strong.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

just a question for thought...

people believe and claim league is a competitive game and that is rank is for ? yes? so you are gonna do everything you can to win the game cuz its competitive ? yes? you *as in the community * wants to "climb that ladder " to elo heaven and prove their worth ? yes?

why would any one pick a champ that wouldnt give them the best opportunity to do so? just like if you best champ is strong in the meta wouldnt you play the fuk out of it to be "competitive' and to "climb the ladder"

and as far as pro play... why do pros pick certain champs and ignore others?

does this game always have some champ strong? due to meta shifts , buffs, nerfs either directly or indirectly?

but i know people want "balance" but what is "balance" ? how do we have true balance in the game?

with 136 champs? or is it 137 now? ne ways... all champs must be viable? have even pick % and all have a 50% win rate =/- of .5%? so 49.5-50.5?

so any champ who dont fall into those set criteria are OP BROKEN OPPRESSIVE ect or TRASH GARBAGE ?

i have see people make the arugment that champ like lee or vayne shouldnt have any where near a 49% win rate or a pick rate above 9% other wise they are too strong

but them i seen people argue that cuz a champ has a pick rate of 3% and a win rate of 52% are just fine due to their "design"

then you see the champ who has a 35% pick rate and a 46% win rate and people says that champ is bad cuz of the low win rate even though their pick rate is high

these numbers are never going to be ideal and every one has different ideas and opinions on what is balanced and fair...

what typically tip the scale for most of the community if they find the champ hard to play against and takes a bit of learning and time to learn how to play/beat X champ

one of the most hated /loved champs is Yasuo .... i use to have issues playing vs him... cuz i didnt see him alot due to him being mid mainly and i was either bot lane or top... so laning vs him i didnt have a lot of time ... i know he has been nerfed and whatever... but due to enough games and time playing the match up i have learned how to adapt.. does he get frustrating ... is he harder and strong if ahead FUK YES but is he beatable ? YES

people are quick to jump on a hate bandwagon and grab their torches and pitch forks and start a mob vs X champ ... we see it ever 2 weeks on the boards.

they made changes to how she interacts with hurricane and her headshot counter passive... they are nerfing her AS... lets see what happens before all show up at RIOT HQ and demand Medlers head on a stick

SenzaRespiro89Jul 3, 20171 votes

Apparently she has no weaknesses otherwise she wouldn't have this pickrate. This pickrate indicates that she is picked ALL THE TIME she is available despite her hefty banrate for an ADC. Caitlyn has no bad matchups, no glaring weakness. She is safe in lane, a lanebully who scales strong anyways. And frankly other champs have been nerfed for less winrate. I know you are trying hard to be the devils advocate on these boards but simply throwing winrates around and saying this is fine doesn't make it true.

DaNinadJul 3, 20171 votes

Name an adc that actually counters caitlyn

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

if no one could beat her wouldnt she have a win rate closer to 100% instead of only 53%?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

so what adc dont beat cait outside of lane phase?

what 4 item adc dont out shine cait?

in a 1 vs 1 duel

cait vs twitch who wins? cait vs ashe who wins? cait vs kalista who wins? cait vs draven? cait vs jinx? cait vs varus? cait vs sivir? cait vs mf? cait vs vayne? cait vs ez? cait vs lucian? cait vs trist? cait vs kog? cait vs xayah?

who wins these one vs one match ups at 4 items ?

DaNinadJul 4, 20171 votes

Cait will literally win all of those except vayne if vayne can surprise here, and twitch but only at late game if cait misses all her skill shots.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 4, 20171 votes

a 4 item cait isnt using skill shots...

she is auto attack reliant champ outside of laning phase...

a 4 item kog will beat a 4 item cait a 4 item draven beats a 4 item cait a 4 item vayne beats a 4 item cait a 4 item kalista beats a 4 item cait a 4 item twitch beats a 4 item cait a 4 item trist vs cait is a coin toss a 4 item jinx vs cait is a coin toss but give the edge to jinx cuz of dps a 4 item jihn beats a 4 item cait a 4 item ez beats a 4 item cait a 4 item cait vs a 4 item MF is coin toss edge to MF a 4 item 4 item cait vs a 4 item varus is advantage varus a 4 item cait vs a 4 item ashe is a coin toss a 4 item cait vs sivir coin toss advantage sivir a 4 item lucian vs a 4 item cait advantage cait

DaNinadJul 4, 20171 votes

Getting the headshots via traps and e is literally the dps of caitlyn. Her headshots do ridiculous amounts of damage with crit items, easily can one shot most adc's with the statiik and rfc and headshot combo. Have you played caitlyn?

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 4, 20171 votes

where are you at when you are at 4 items as an ADC?

in lane farming ?

NO ITS MID into LATE GAME team fight situations

outside of lane or seiging or turtling to protect your own base/objectives she is an auto based crit adc

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

DaNinadJul 4, 20171 votes

Bad caitlyns just auto attack.

Good caitlyns will try to proc head shots via traps/e in the teamfights. Using all the animation cancelling provided.

Also weren't you talking about 1 on 1s between 4 item adc's?

chipndip1Jul 2, 20175 votes

Here's the issue with Cait: She's a lane bully that hyper scales.

Most champs either lane bully or scale hard. Cait intentionally has both for no good reason. It's just shit to work around. She's strong early and she comes back swinging hard at 3 items if she fucked up the first time. Only time you can try to fight back hard is in between laning's end and the completion of her second item.

RexxieeJul 2, 20175 votes

{quoted}

Here's the issue with Cait: She's a lane bully that hyper scales.

Most champs either lane bully or scale hard. Cait intentionally has both for no good reason. It's just shit to work around. She's strong early and she comes back swinging hard at 3 items if she fucked up the first time. Only time you can try to fight back hard is in between laning's end and the completion of her second item.

Draven works exactly like that yet everyone glosses over him.

Btw his early game is even stronger than cait. Oh and he doesnt even have that drop off point cait has either, hes strong all game and snowballs off a single kill.

chipndip1Jul 2, 20174 votes

Draven doesn't work the same way, though.

Draven is more like a lawn mower: If you rev him up well early, he's )usually) gonna perform well. If you don't, you're (usually) shit out of luck. This is why Tyler1 always says it's worth when he trades kills, since he puts so much emphasis on early game domination. After this, Draven attempts to coast as long as he can. However, Draven does have a point where he's not as effective as real hyper carries like Tristana, Cait, Jinx, Kog, and Twitch. Whether you ever see that point or not depends on how he did early game, though.

DJMason88Jul 2, 201713 votes

Draven works exactly like that yet everyone glosses over him.

We both know that is a complete lie, there are so many threads complaining about Draven

crippler38Jul 3, 20171 votes

They're complaining about how tanky he is though, not his damage.

WHICH IS FINE CONSIDERING HE TELLS YOU WHERE HE'S GONNA STAND SO YOU CAN EITHER CC HIM TO STOP HIS AXE CATCHING OR MURDER HIIIIM!!!!

But that's besides the point.

Bodkins OddsJul 2, 20171 votes

After the first week of 10 ban Yasuo, lols. I haven't seen Yas banned much but Draven is banned EVERY SINGLE GAME. And not just because I'm banning, he gets banned by both teams.

WráthfulJul 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bodkins Odds,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nL6Ey6Eb,comment-id=0001000000000000000100000002,timestamp=2017-07-02T18:38:34.862+0000)

After the first week of 10 ban Yasuo, lols. I haven't seen Yas banned much but Draven is banned EVERY SINGLE GAME. And not just because I'm banning, he gets banned by both teams.

tbh i never saw spikes on yasuo banning after the 10 bans were introduced. i still see 2x draven zac or cait bans. i think this speaks alot and they gonna rework yas not even touching cait or draven in the near future.

ZardoJul 3, 20171 votes

Remember the last champ who was a lane bully but ryzes in power as the game progresses?

Violet FieldsJul 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nL6Ey6Eb,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-02T16:28:37.442+0000)

oh and by having less attack speed to begin with that means others adcs DPS and AS would be stronger therefore being and indirect buff to their power

and out side of lane phase she does all her damage from autos and crits not from abilities therefore slower attack speed would really hurt her

I don't see a problem with that, lol.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

but apparently that isnt good enough people wont be happy til she is a shit champ that isnt played or picked

then the next champ who is will be cried about just as much and then there will be threads about how bad of a state cait is in and how she needs buffs. it never ends

no one wants to accept metas and the ebb n flow of the game and how it changes if something is strong on monday they want it gutted tuesday then when its gutted on thursday they will say how the champ is unplayable and needs to be reworked

it dont matter the champ its the same bullshit circle jerk in every thread

Sir FuzziJul 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, but she can still load up headshot, plus trap and net, for some insane damage.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 3, 20171 votes

so you want her to do no damage ?

then what is the point of having any champs?

all champs in the game do damage. its a damage meta and always will be

Sir FuzziJul 4, 20171 votes

I just want the traps dialled down somehow; give them a travel time, make them destructible, put an extended arm time if they pop in range of a champion, something like that.

VallalanJul 3, 20172 votes

they have also said that won't be enough.

they are well aware of how broken she is. shes going to be hit very very hard. the first nerf was just to test the waters. now they know she needs hard nerfs or she'll still be op. if htey want to keep an op mechanic like headshots they gotta gut her elsewhere. god bless.

NinjaGuy69Jul 3, 20172 votes

I die inside a bit more each time Riot doesn't apply an appropriate nerf to a champion that deserves one. Now, this might prompt you to ask: "But doesn't Riot fail to apply necessary nerfs on a regular basis?" If you asked this, you'd be right. It's fine though. This is fine.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bza9C_2CcAAaXdZ.jpg

RexxieeJul 2, 20176 votes

Thresh has a 54% win rate + 35+% pick rate.

Wheres the threads complaining about him?

GULAG 4 UJul 2, 20171 votes

nice strawman argument there =)

Wonder how well you would do with these kind of arguments in a serious debate =)))

CatastrophicJul 3, 20171 votes

That's not really a strawman, a strawman changes the original argument to a different one that sounds ridiculous, usually by exaggerating or belittling them. I believe our friend here was merely saying that thresh also needs nerfs.

GULAG 4 UJul 3, 20171 votes

Maybe it isn't, but it is completely off topic and doesn't prove op'a point right or wrong.

CatastrophicJul 3, 20171 votes

That is true, and I think it was meant to be that way.

SenzaRespiro89Jul 2, 20172 votes

The threads are coming once he is ruling the rift for two seasons straight which caitlyn is straight up doing. She had ONE weak point in thi sgame and that was lethality meta. Apart from that she has always been S tier.

LeonerdoJul 2, 20175 votes

Yeah... I mean, I don't think she's actually OP or overbearing; 53% winrate isn't that OP. But the problem is that she is NEVER bad. At any rank, in any team comp, against any team comp, it doesn't matter, Caitlyn is a good pick. That also means she's an amazing champion to one-trick, since she has essentially no bad match-ups.

Plus, everyone hates her for being super annoying. But that's a separate matter.

But hey, at least she's a really easy choice when banning. Always a good pick, always a good ban.