Why does Riot show such double standards when it comes to CC?

WoonStruck·Jul 25, 2016·15 votes·1,493 views

Skarner, a melee, immobile tank, got a rework to remove his melee permaslow because it was 'oppressive'.

Every other melee bruiser got phage/trinity changed from a slow to a speed buff because 'permaslow is oppressive'.

IBG got nerfed because of the champs that could permaslow with it (not the latest round; mostly Ez and a few others).

Frozen Mallet got nerfed hard for permaslowing; specifically at range.

Meanwhile, ranged AP are allowed to permaslow with Rylai's from 6+ Teemos away. What gives?

29 Comments

Slamurai JackJul 25, 201610 votes

It's arguable that it's not necessarily the permaslow that's toxic, but the permaslow in addition to being able to outduel everyone. Bruisers with permaslows are toxic because you can't really fight them either. Most mages at least give you the opportunity to engage on them and kill them, with Azir being the obvious and most blatant exception. The counterplay to bruisers is supposed to be kiting them but permaslows basically removed that counterplay. While annoying, permaslows on champs like Azir don't remove their intended counterplay: pile them with multiple people, all in them, or blow them up from range.

WoonStruckJul 25, 20162 votes

Most of the problematic bruisers with permaslows (phage/trinity/Fmal in the past) had mobility. Just saying.

I do agree with you. In fact, its exactly the reason why permaslow is alright on Ashe.

Most of the issues come in when they permaslow and you can't turn to fight them. A lot of the time, this is the case with mages when Rylai's ends up as their primary kiting tool. You can TRY to turn and fight them, but if you don't have a dash/blink/ranged CC, you aren't likely to get to them, and even if you do, can you get through the extra beefiness that Rylai's (and either Abyssal/Zhonya's, often) has added in the time that you're actually in melee with them, which they can often deny after you close with the hard CC most of them have?

Mages are fairly tanky this season, which is why this rendition of the permaslow issue is targeted at them.

MisterShamelessJul 25, 20161 votes

Mages had higher defensive items last season, this season there is just a bit more reliable sustain early on, but at a cost of losing some defence from the entire build late game. ADCs are a better example of being fairly tanky this season when compared to last season (ex. Maw). With the MYMU, mages ended up with less ap, armor, and hp at the cost of more utility options and sustain. Honestly, this season mages seem far more squishier than last year (with the exception of the reworked mages).

SpoofghoulJul 25, 20161 votes

but the annoying thing wit these mages is they got long range making it really difficult to get to them

its practically imposible to get to them if you dont have mobility

hureNNNJul 25, 20166 votes

If a champion that builds bruiser has the ability to completely lock down an opponent, he will completely take over the game. If he gets ahead, he will kill anything he touches, and wont die because he has the defensive stats to back it up.

A ranged mage will die if you cc it, the bruiser will just laugh and kill you anyways.

WoonStruckJul 25, 20165 votes

A bruiser will not take over a game relative to a mage atm unless they get extremely far ahead or the entire enemy team is AD/low CC. Being melee is a crippling weakness in this game that you can only overcome by being an overloaded champ, getting far ahead, or your enemy being stupid and going absolutely glass cannon.

A bruiser must build sunfire, IBG, or TF in order to be both tanky and deal damage, none of which help much vs magic damage.

If a mage is kiting, the mage will easily win. Rylai's makes that significantly easier, and makes immobile melees non-viable in most cases.

**A melee permaslow does not make anything non-viable. It means vision and positioning become more valuable. ** The exceptions only come in when you add mobility as a factor. Just like Ashe's permaslow in season 1, mobility (in the form of dashes/blinks) has swayed the dynamic of game interactions an absurd amount to the point where you have to have very specific tools to function now.

What's the difference between an assassin killing you instantly and a bruiser taking 5-10 seconds to do so, where your team could come and help? I'd say the perma-slowing bruiser is healthier, specifically if its only applicable to relatively immobile ones, such as Skarner in the past.

SidestepJul 25, 20162 votes

Thus Tanko was born.. an assassin/bruiser who could essentially permaslow with q then iceborn that was mobile...

The DeckownerJul 25, 20166 votes

The worst type of perma slow with rylais is TARGETED DOT, like malzahar's AIDS, once you gets it you can't get rid of it.

RogueWillJul 25, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nIEmUgbl,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-07-25T03:57:19.356+0000)

The worst type of perma slow with rylais is TARGETED DOT, like malzahar's AIDS, once you gets it you can't get rid of it.

I personally think is worse, E and now you are slowed from his Blaze and just waiting for the spear into pillar into R, if you have no dash you are pretty much dead

The DeckownerJul 25, 20162 votes

Yah that is an example of targeted DOT.

5050BSJul 25, 20163 votes

Dots need to have only a 15% slow because it lasts so long.

IkrutiJul 25, 20161 votes

His Conflagration is a targeted single target direct damage spell that happens to leave a DOT. The initial spell grants the full 40% 1.5 second slow from Rylai's, which is plenty of time for the follow up Sear -> Pillar -> Pyroclasm. The Blaze DOT slow is really not even a factor.

I guess what I'm saying is that Conflagration is really not the same as Malefic Visions, since Malefic Visions is purely a DOT, whereas the Conflagration is an actual direct damage attack with Blaze as an after thought.

Trust me, no Brand is going to be waiting more than 1.5 seconds to launch a Sear at you once he has conflagged you.

LatetotheRaceJul 25, 20161 votes

Children of the grave is fun too.

SidestepJul 25, 20161 votes

lol@ that last statement! The worse part is when trying to run from the voidlings while slowed...

The DeckownerJul 25, 20161 votes

did I mention voidlings also applies rylais?

Penguin EclipseJul 25, 20164 votes

Because extremely few mages can effectively make it a perma slow and when the item was changed even fewer could. The item itself is relatively unchanged since season 5. It could definitely use some changes now but it is likely they just haven't gotten around to it yet.

WoonStruckJul 25, 20165 votes

Most mages can effectively make it a permaslow, especially when you consider all of the other slows/cc coming in from outside sources.

AoE slows should not be as strong as many of them are, especially with Rylai's. DoT slows need to be weaker as well, as that's an extremely long slow in most cases; Trinity/phage got nerfed for exactly the same reason. All it takes is ~2 seconds of being slowed to end up out of position long enough to get fucked by the enemy team catching up to you.

ProfDrDeathJul 25, 20161 votes

Almost all current meta mages make Rylai's either a virtual permaslow or use Rylai's to remove a big part of the counterplay to their kits. Or both.

Azir Cassiopeia Kayle Malzahar Rumble Swain Taliyah Viktor Vladimir

CaítlynJul 25, 20163 votes

Because cooldowns exist?

WoonStruckJul 25, 20164 votes

And range is OP in this game? Melee have to either abuse something broken or be broken themselves to even be considered viable.

What else is new?

I don't see 4/5 of champions that auto attack slowing you by 40% for over 3 seconds.

Dominick DestineJul 25, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Because cooldowns exist?

This is the real / correct answer.

Sire HippingtonJul 25, 20162 votes

You forgot the original pemaslow: Ashe

WoonStruckJul 25, 20163 votes

That's ashe's intended niche, and she has a lot of flaws that go along with it. Specifically that she's pretty damn squishy and lacks mobility.

That's a far cry from Rylai's users, Fmal users, and Skarner, who all end up relatively tanky.

Ashe, Mundo, Zilean, and Olaf all had pretty reliable ranged permaslows outside of itemization in the past. Those hitbox nerfs tho...

ProfDrDeathJul 25, 20162 votes

Her current damage could use a nerf, though - for example by increasing the number of Q stacks back to 5.

5050BSJul 25, 20162 votes

Their Balance team is 3 people who are all 12 year old boys (fat with glasses too)

ScramrailJul 25, 20162 votes

A lot of the problems with item 3116 could be solved if they nerfed its interactions with DoT abilities (brand/malz come to mind) and controlled creatures (mord ghosts, tibbers, sand soldiers). As far as I can remember, most typical mages don't have spammable abilities that would allow them to permaslow someone with any reliability. The exception to this would be Viktor Q in late game I guess, but he has to be pretty dangerously close to his opponent to use it consistently so I don't see why that's really a big deal.

ProfDrDeathJul 25, 20161 votes

The problem with Rylai's is not just the permaslow, but also the fact that, for certain mages, it remove a huge part of their intended counterplay (Viktor and Chaos Storm come to mind here).

Sona PingJul 25, 20161 votes

Because one champion is not another champion.

Stunning melee attacks is fine on Udyr, but not on Talon. An unstoppable, knock-up, dash is fine on Malphite, not on Katarina. Karthus Ult is fine on Karthus not on Xerath.