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In general, "damage supports" mean that they are not in a healthy position balance-wise

Hay5eed··9 votes·1,008 views

If you are able to take what is traditionally a solo-laner and put them into a duo lane where they are denied all CS but they still make a good support soley BECAUSE they can do a significant bit of damage...then they aren't balanced.

You're an mage. Traditionally, you farm minions for gold, to buy your AP items, so that you can do damage. You need all the gold you can get to buy the costly AP items.

If you can deny your mage all cs, half their xp, two whole item slots (item 2049 and item 3107 ) but still do a lot of damage then that is not balanced, in either bot lane or mid lane.

EDIT: To the few comments I have been getting ( I dont feel like replying twice) yes, I know the reasons these mages are being taken to bot lane. You don't have to tell me the REASON. My point is still valid. This ISN'T the emergence of a new role, it is a list of champion that already have one intended role encroaching on another roles territory. This last tournament saw a Camille support, and they won with it (in a way I'm proud cause I thought of Camille support long time ago). That being said I don't think supports are in a bad position balance wise. When paired with other traditional supports they are able to trade with eachother and are still effective in team-fights come late game. It is only when paired with a damage support that they struggle because the mage doesn't even need to build much to do damage, has a lot of range, and great zoning. Their early game damage makes it difficult for a support to protect their adc or get picks in the early game because it is literally the same as having an extra mage thrown into bot.

11 Comments

SEKAI3 votes

It's a duo lane, which means there are 2 people there.

But nope, duo lane has to feel like a solo lane, and so one of the duo laner has to be nerfed so hard they may as well be another minion on the chopper, and that's exactly what some people want, and that's what Riot did.

And due to how atrocious supports are, what do you think their players would do? Just switch to other more effective champs that aren't another minion dumby.

The fault starts when you are forcing supports to have 0 presence in the game, it just doesn't work.

Do people even remember why supports are a thing, and what constitutes a support anymore? Do people even realise why supports are supports precisely because they have good base and innate utility that allows them to function and perform adequately despite no reliable income? But no that's bad and they shouldn't have that? What should they have then, do you seriously think forcing them to be CC bots and nothing else would motivate others into picking them?

Stop this bot lane marksman+"real support" nonsense, it simply does NOT work. No one wants to be forced to play a spectator. Stop hard-locking and balancing around this stupid meta that would NEVER work.

Times change, the game's changed, and so would the meta, let it change geez. What worked best simply doesn't do it anymore, what's so wrong about it changing?

Hay5eed1 votes

So far I try to classify supports in these categories.

Co-operative supports: Leona Blitzcrank Thresh etc. These supports help the adc get kills. They possess a lot of cc, but that cc is conditional (usually through a predictable, delayed, skillshot) and usually posses some tankiness, and mild damage. Their whole role as a support is to lock down targets to enable their adc to get the kill.

Protective supports: Soraka Nami Bard Janna Braum These supports help the adc by protecting them from others, mostly by healing them. They usually possess at most two forms of cc, one via a skillshot and another on an ultimate. Sure their cc can be used offensively, but it's easier to use defensively. They help their adc by making sure the adc doesn't die.

And then there are

Damage supports: Annie Malzahar Brand These supports are designed to do a lot of damage and just let their adc get the kill. They almost always have just one form of cc to justify their position as support.

The problem is that Protective and Co-operative supports are PLANNED supports. Riot released them with the intentions of them being supports and have balanced them accordingly. They cannot do much damage or if they can it is very conditional.

Damage supports on the other hand were designed for solo lane use against other solo laners (usually mid laners). Their kits are designed to fit into the meta of a solo mid lane, where things like farming matter. Sure most damage supports are pretty squishy when focused, but it's way too annoying to try to pin them down when they do not have to worry about cs. Farming is what balances a lot of these champions out because while they may be absolutely terrifying while fed you can punish them while farming. Supports don't do this. This means that every time an adc tries to make a move against a damage support, the support can just....walk back...out of his range and sit there. And the damage support doesn't lose anything, doesn't lose xp, doesn't lose gold, nothing, because their adc is doing it for them.

Now time for me to address your exact comment piece by piece.

"But nope, duo lane has to feel like a solo lane" - Tell me one time where you as an adc were playing against a Blitz, Thresh, Braum, or Soraka and it felt like just a solo lane? I know that a Soraka bot lane won't feel like a solo lane cause you will always be cursing Soraka for healing up their adc.

"And due to how atrocious supports are" - Supports are still in a good spot. Leona has a shit ton of lock down, Braum has good peel, Blitz is great at getting picks and Thresh has a bit of everything with great outplay potential. Soraka lets your adc not die provided they aren't shit, Bard is a fucking balloon, Nami can heal and even peel for your adc.

"The fault starts when you are forcing supports to have 0 presence in game" - A single Leona ult, a good Braum ult, Thresh landing mad life hooks, Soraka heals, these can all make or break a game. Despite how important laning phase is, team fights are what matters the most and a lot of supports have this exact scenario in mind and have a wonderful ability specifically for this situation.

"good base damage and innate utility that allows them to perform adequately despite no reliable income?" - I think your definition of "performing adequately" is misguided. You think that if you don't do a shit ton of damage that you aren't helping your team, which is completely off from the truth! Also I don't understand how a Malz ult and Brand Q +passive counts as "innate utility"? What is more innate then having an ability (or four) strictly dedicated to cc?

"it simply does NOT work" - Worked for 7 seasons. (I know that season 1 might not count cause meta wasn't established etc, SUE ME)

"what's so wrong about changing?" - because with this change the support role loses all uniqueness in it's role. Sure other roles do different types of damage in different ways and travel different paths but they all follow one rule - Kill. The Enemy. That's it. They are all out for getting kills for themselves and their kits are entirely based around it. Playing a support is unique though because it lets you do other things like protecting other players and stonewalling an entire team when they try to gank bot. With damage supports you just poke poke poke until the enemy is low and hope your adc is navigate a kill and if he doesn't fuck em take the kill. It doesn't really matter cause if you get fed that's just as fine.

Your problem is that you are too focused on killing the enemy team and not on protecting your own.

You place little to no faith in your adc to get kills/build properly/do damage so you maim enemies and feed them to your adc like a mother seal nurturing her cub.

And here is the final one. You think that you can't do damage with any of the supports I have mentioned above. Have you build full adc thresh? It's hilarious as hell. Full AP Bard with a Luden's Echo? Stupid as hell but hilarious.

sobi9991 votes

They do get money through Ancient coin/ spell thief and i may say, its a decent amount. Also these mages have high base damage and rely less on items which means they have strong early game and weak late game. They are just abused at bot lane because traditional supp's and adc's are really weak early game and can get first tower faster and also because matches are less longer than before. By no means are they OP at mid just because they are strong at bot lane. If anyone i'll say leblanc/katarina/ryze are too strong for mid laners. That's why people are saying to nerf the burst mage supp role and not their mid role which is supposedly perfectly fine for most of them.

Shonjl1 votes

Or it just means their bases are alright, or vastly better than the gutted real supports.

Like I said in plenty of these threads. Why pick a Braum or Leona whos jobs are to hold you down or protect the ADC when an Annie or Brand can stun them and blow them up? They can't be ignored like the prior too. Try to ignore a sup Annie and see what happens? Probably will die regardless of what their ADC is doing. Try to ignore a sup Braum? He just annoys you a little then runs if his ADC isn't with him or dies without the ADC.

B00B001 votes

The supp is right now littered with picks, you'll notice they all have a form off CC or more with damage, these picks have always been viable the only reason your seeing him now is generally games are too short to get to that uber tank point (braum, leo etc) if hey make support tank items or resist items cheaper they will be fine.

Same goes for adcs lethality is a bit OP right now and will be adjusted but the reason adcs lack damage (pre lethality buff) 2-/ due to the fact they couldn't hit there 4/5 item spike as the games where too short, all riot needed to do was make items transition more smoothly or have a item or two cheaper and they and lethality was just fine

PunnedIt1 votes

It would help if you defined what you meant by "damage supports". Are we talking supports like Karma and Lux who have shields and damage, or are we talking Lee Sin support? Because in the case of the latter I tend to agree, but I have no problem with a support who relies on a clever combination of cc and damage.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

He means Brand and Zyra and Malzahar. Speaking of which, everyone who plays Malzahar support should be ashamed of themselves. You monsters.

Hay5eed1 votes

I played Malzahar support once. I did great, but I was disgusted with myself.

Also dont forget this bitch Annie

PunnedIt1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bodkins Odds,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nEUh9VpT,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-02-07T07:55:43.233+0000)

He means Brand and Zyra and Malzahar. Speaking of which, everyone who plays Malzahar support should be ashamed of themselves. You monsters.

Pretty sure that Zyra is meant to be support. Didn't they nerf her when people tried to take her mid?

Bodkins Odds1 votes

That was pre-mage update. Post update, she's still supposed to be playable as a support, but they wanted to support her mid-lane mage ability as well. Currently, she's too good as a support and not quite good enough mid.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

It's just a mixed damage version of the kill lane, nothing new.

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