So why are roles like "Tank" specifically designed for, but anyone can "Support"?

Strawberrycocoa·Oct 23, 2016·19 votes·1,676 views

The Miss Fortune Support stuff going around got me to thinking something. Every other role in the game is for a specific design style of champion. An Assassin can't step in to a Marksman role, a Mage can't effectively play a Tank role. You've got strong AP and AD builds for some of the Bruisers, but it's not usually a build that's effective overall aside from particular outlier games.

But Support role is not tied exclusively to Support champions. Any fucker with a bit of utility can queue up for the Support role. So, why is the Support role not shaped around specific design styles like the other roles are?

35 Comments

RebonackOct 23, 201645 votes

Because support is a lane position and Tank is a champion archetype.

Nameless VoiceOct 23, 20163 votes

Exactly this.

The confusion comes from the fact that there is both a support champion type and a lane position called "support".

The former are champions who support their teammates. The latter is a position where the player shares their lane with another player and gives up most of the last hits / gold income.

Just like you can play support champions in other positions (e.g. Lulu, Karma mid), you can play non-support champions in the support position (e.g. Miss Fortune or Annie support.)

KeìronOct 23, 20161 votes

support isn't a champ archetype. Enchanter and warden are supporting archetypes.

Sire HippingtonOct 24, 20162 votes

By the new definitions, yes, but for the longest time of lol's existence, support was a champion type alongside assasin, mage and co.

MunchCrunchLunchOct 24, 20161 votes

adc is both lol

RebonackOct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

adc is both lol

Mostly due to systemic issues with gold flow, XP gain, and how primary objectives are taken. These things could be addressed, but it would be an absolutely massive over-haul to the map.

Marksmen were totally optional over in Dominionland because the nature of objectives didn't warp the whole game around them.

Duke AnaxOct 23, 201610 votes

That is becasue those two words "Support" and "Support" look the same, but they don't mean the same.

A Support Champion is someone that helps teammates by doing something that they can't do themselves.

A lane Support however helps his lane partner to do the things he is already trying to do and should thus rather be called an Assistan.

The Assistant can be a Support, but a Support doesn't have to assist and almost anyone can assist.

StrawberrycocoaOct 23, 20161 votes

I like that phrasing, actually.

TehNACHOOct 23, 20167 votes

Well, by your own admission, not everyone can support.

The short and undetailed answer is that the Support's role is primarily a laning phase winner. Your goal is to make sure your ADC gets past their awkward first few levels and scales into something amazing. How you do that is mostly up to you.

MF Support was not picked because she has utility. Let's face it, if that was the main reason why Rox picked her then, they could and should've picked anything else. The primary reason they picked Support (hearsay, but I want to share) is because Miss Fortune outranges and more or less counters Zyra. It was a hyper niche solution to a rather large problem in competitive Support pools. It's not an indication that anybody can support, it was an indication that, if you are smart, you can get away with rather ridiculous things for justifiable reasons. MF Support does not work 99% of the time, but if you are that tiny percentage of the player population that understands lane matchups well enough and are okay with not scaling well at all, AND you happen to know MF's specific counters, then you can get away with it in those tiny niche situations.

JbelsOct 23, 20166 votes

Offbuilds used to be very prevalent and fun in League, but recent champion design and champion visual/gameplay updates have really scraped bare the ability of champions to be able to do things they weren't intended to do. It's kinda sad

LXIIOct 23, 20165 votes

Ekko - Assassin Mage that can play Tank Yasuo - Assassin Fighter that has seen success in the bot lane (either role) Mordekaiser - Literally designed (maybe poorly) to be played in place of a traditional ADC Teemo - ..who even knows what he's supposed to be but he can be played literally anywhere

The list goes on. This is nothing new, and it's not like MF support is useful in every scenario.

Irelia BotOct 23, 20162 votes

Technically speaking "supports" could be called utility mages and no real issues would happen because of it outside of Janna not doing well in mid after those nerfs to Q damage.

Solo lane Janna use to work because maxing Q and getting one NLR would clear waves.

Angry MonsterOct 24, 20162 votes

support lane assignment does not mean support champion type. Sure they have the same name but that does not mean they are same thing.

Role support : helps allies through buffs of some nature, speed, shields, heals, ect

Lane assignment support : Jobs is to be the low econ player of the team. Sacrifices some build options to provide support through sight/wards.

How you do not understand they are 2 different things amazes me.

Critmaster GarenOct 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Angry Monster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nEEecqEF,comment-id=000d,timestamp=2016-10-24T02:36:55.392+0000) How you do not understand they are 2 different things amazes me.

to be fair, its not weird that people confuse the champion class of supports and 0 cs lane supports with each other, since

a) almost all support class champions are played as 0 cs duo lane supports

b) people just generally call both short "support"

so its not hard to udnerstand that theyre generally mistaken for the same thing.

Critmaster GarenOct 24, 20162 votes

op, you misunderstand.

there is a difference between the role of 0cs support, and supports as a class of champions.

a 0cs duo lane support is any champion who can be played effective off his utility in a duo lane without farming gold on minions. this mostly includes classic support class champions like Nami Soraka Janna Sona but also mages and tanks.

Ivern is a good example of a support class champion who is at the same time not a 0cs duo lane support, but a jungler.

Zilean used to be played in the mid lane. its just his rework changed him more to a duo lane support.

Karma can still be played in the mid lane if im not mistaken.

Lulu was sometimes taken into mid and solo lanes.

Sona can be played in the mid lane

Nunu is still mainly considered a support class champion, who takes the role of a jungler.

its just that the general design concept of the support class being entirely focused around ... well supporting allies, that almost all of them naturally fit into the duo lane, because theyd have no one to support while solo laning.

jungler would be the closest second role support class champions can excell in, due to their tendency to roam, and support their laners in ganks and skirmishes.

not all support class champions can jungle though, since a lot of them cant function very well without an ally around or bring enough damage to clear camps.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 23, 20161 votes

hmm champs i have played support with and won games with let me see ...

Alistar Annie Ashe Bard Blitzcrank Braum DrMundo Galio Garen Gragas Janna JarvanIV Leona Lissandra Lulu Lux Malphite Maokai Morgana Nami Nasus Nautilus Nunu Pantheon Renekton Shen Sion Sona Soraka TahmKench Taric Teemo Thresh Trundle Urgot Volibear Yorick Ziggs Zilean Zyra

LauchmelderOct 23, 20161 votes

Try Gnar if you got an ADC Vayne. It's insane

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 23, 20161 votes

i could see but gnar only get ult from his transformation in which he has to auto or attack to build up his rage for transformation and be too hard to manage /control in a duo lane...

Ariel the CruelOct 23, 20161 votes

Urgot I do love me some Urgod support. Unless I'm last pick though, someone always dodges. When I am last pick, someone normally trolls. (T_T) Meta sheep OP.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoOct 23, 20161 votes

yep that is why im seen as a troll on the boards cuz i dont drink the kool-aid and i dont blindly believe like the rest of the sheep

The DeckownerOct 23, 20161 votes

because support is essentially anyone who can use the utility provided from the support items.

Like anyone csn buy sightstone locket face of the mountain mobi boot mikaels frozen heart and then call themselves support, because they technically has the utility with those items.

Blue Moon WolfOct 23, 20161 votes

Just about anyone can support cause it mostly just involves you getting less gold, fewer levels, little to no kills and making room for a vision item. Obviously the champs who can empower allies or can be a meat shield work better as support as that is where their strength lies, but technically anyone can do it. On top of that, Tank is a class, not a role. Tanks can support, but they can be used anywhere else. Support on the other hand is bot lane with the ADC. The only champ who is a support outside of bot lane is Ivern , but even then you still select Jungle as your role when you pick him. It's just that his strength lies in letting his teammates get the kills rather than taking the kills himself.

YumaS2AstralOct 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nEEecqEF,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-10-23T19:16:14.346+0000) On top of that, Tank is a class, not a role. Tanks can support, but they can be used anywhere else. Support on the other hand is bot lane with the ADC. The only champ who is a support outside of bot lane is , but even then you still select Jungle as your role when you pick him. It's just that his strength lies in letting his teammates get the kills rather than taking the kills himself.

There are many other champions who can be considered supports outside of bot lane.

For example, Karma and Lulu at mid and top lane, or Nunu as a jungler, there are other examples too.

Stars ShaperOct 23, 20161 votes

Becuase "Tanking" is a specific role which means "eat lots of damage but survive through that". "Supporting" on the other hand can mean a lot of different things, you can support via heals, buffs or CCing and debuffs, hence why "Enchanters" exist.

Not to mention that Graves "Death is best CC".

VeraskaOct 23, 20161 votes

Tanks not a role its a class Vanguards and wardens are considered subclasses to the tank class

Support is a ROLE ussually intended to aid the team with utility, roam around the map, and protect the bot laner in early levels

Typical classes that work in the support ROLE are Controllers (sub classes are enchanters and disruptors) and tanks

We need to clean up our use of terminology here, stop refering to champions like sona/janna/nami as supports and start referring to them as enchanters

I am a FeministOct 24, 20161 votes

support - lane position

tank - role/champ type

Apples and Oranges

And also champs that are most effective in the support position have to have a kit that doesn't need gold to maximize with. You can have any champion in the support position but you won't be utilizing their whole kit and as such will be gimping yourself.

Emerald FangOct 24, 20161 votes

Wait MF support is a thing? fuck my life...

The Yetii RiderOct 24, 20161 votes

Support does have a specific design style. It's just multiple design styles.

For example, you can have either Karma or Leona support, but Leona is not going to be an artillery support like Karma and Karma is not going to be an engage tank like Leona.

We have Enchanters, Wardens, and Vanguards who support mostly.

Enchanters are your typical squishy immobile mages who provide healing and shields instead of damage. Lulu, Janna, Soraka, Nami

Wardens are defensive supports who lack hard engage. Taric, Braum, Thresh to an extent

Vanguards are supports who go in. Leona, Alistar, Blitzcrank (again it's a weird version of it, but he does go "in")

CrazyBear1987Oct 24, 20161 votes

Hope they reclarify next season XD [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Teridax68Oct 24, 20161 votes

{quoted}

But Support role is not tied exclusively to Support champions. Any fucker with a bit of utility can queue up for the Support role. So, why is the Support role not shaped around specific design styles like the other roles are?

Technically, the same applies for junglers. There is no specific jungler class, but practically every class has members who can jungle. The support role and the support class are two different things, which is likely why Riot tried to rename the class "Controllers": there's the support position, which is basically all about going bot lane, not taking farm and assisting your ally, and there's the support class, which is the set of champions who are designed to work with teammates. To a lesser extent, the top and mid roles also accept multiple classes.

In the end, I think the issue isn't so much that "anyone can support", but that actual supports can't go anywhere other than bot lane. Preseason 6 allowed marksmen to go essentially anywhere, and classes like fighters, tanks and mages tend to have at least two different positions in which they can work. Supports are the only class stuck with only one positional option, which contributes to the support role being unpopular. I think it would be perfectly okay for non-supports to support, so long as actual supports would be able to go to other positions, or even switch things up by duo laning top or mid. Hopefully, Ivern will open the door for more supports in the jungle, just like what Kindred for marksmen.

Critmaster GarenOct 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Technically, the same applies for junglers. There is no specific jungler class, but practically every class has members who can jungle. The support role and the support class are two different things, which is likely why Riot tried to rename the class "Controllers": there's the support position, which is basically all about going bot lane, not taking farm and assisting your ally, and there's the support class, which is the set of champions who are designed to work with teammates. To a lesser extent, the top and mid roles also accept multiple classes.

In the end, I think the issue isn't so much that "anyone can support", but that actual supports can't go anywhere other than bot lane. Preseason 6 allowed marksmen to go essentially anywhere, and classes like fighters, tanks and mages tend to have at least two different positions in which they can work. Supports are the only class stuck with only one positional option, which contributes to the support role being unpopular. I think it would be perfectly okay for non-supports to support, so long as actual supports would be able to go to other positions, or even switch things up by duo laning top or mid. Hopefully, Ivern will open the door for more supports in the jungle, just like what Kindred for marksmen.

it applies to every single lane.

there are fighters, assassins, tanks, mages and marksmen who can either top, mid, or jungle.

the only position in a game that is always locked down to the same class of champions, is the duo lane partner for 0cs supports. and thats always in every single game on every team a marksman.

this is why i think riot should actively try to break up the meta and make mages, fighters and other types of champions viable in duo lanes with a 0cs support at their side.

they tried with the morde rework by making a duo lane fighter. it didnt work out very well, but imo it was still a step into the right direction.

hopefully knights vow will enable a couple of fighter/support duo lane comps.

Teridax68Oct 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nEEecqEF,comment-id=00120000,timestamp=2016-10-24T07:48:03.825+0000)

the only position in a game that is always locked down to the same class of champions, is the duo lane partner for 0cs supports. and thats always in every single game on every team a marksman.

this is why i think riot should actively try to break up the meta and make mages, fighters and other types of champions viable in duo lanes with a 0cs support at their side.

I completely agree with this. Right now, I think the single biggest source of stagnation is bot lane, and the marksman-centric comps it generates. Every comp needs a marksman, and that marksman typically needs a support by their side, and that works best in bot lane due to Dragon control. If marksmen ended up being as "optional" as any other class, i.e. if it were possible to switch out the marksman for another class, as you mentioned, then supports would be able to move around far more, and the positional meta would end up becoming a lot more fluid.

StrawberrycocoaOct 24, 20161 votes

I think it would be perfectly okay for non-supports to support, so long as actual supports would be able to go to other positions, or even switch things up by duo laning top or mid.

This is part of my frustration: there's a history of Support champions moving to other lanes only to get what makes them work in that lane nerfed (Janna goes mid, Q ratio gets lowered because waveclear too strong. Lulu goes top, damage lowered because she hard-countered melee with the slows and Poly. Blitz USED to be useable in solo-lane, then all his damage was lowered and he got a self-slow implemented), whereas when Mages like Brand and Annie go bot support nobody ever seems to say, "Hey we should lower there base damages so they can't just ride free power on -0cs".

Basically low-damage utility characters having their one useable lane invaded is perfectly okay, but historically when they step out of that lane into other areas they get smacked back down. It's frustrating to me because I get a lot of "power fantasy" enjoyment out of using CCs and such to deny divers and assassins their kills, but that playstyle is frowned upon by the Balance Gods.

Teridax68Oct 24, 20162 votes

Several mages actually ended up with often severe nerfs because of their bot lane performance. Annie and Fiddlesticks were two of the most popular mage "supports" after Preseason 4, and received nerfs to their base damage and early game power so that they'd be less effective with 0 CS. When Morgana support became meta, she had her damage reduced several times, to the point where she often struggles now as a solo laner. 0 CS balancing goes both ways.

Another issue with supports in solo lanes, particularly older supports, is that often they're designed purely for duo laning, and some of the tools they're given are too reliable in a solo lane, which makes them unhealthy. Prior to her rework, AP bruiser mid Soraka was this nightmarish sustain bot who could negate your damage with her heals, nuke you and silence you for free, and bully you with a button press if you tried to CS. Lulu's unfortunately stuck in this uncomfortable spot where her utility has become insufficient to make her interesting in a duo lane, but excessive in a solo lane. Janna got nerfs to her Q because she could poke and waveclear from her tower to the middle of the mid lane. I do think supports deserve to go to places other than bot lane, but they also need to be healthy no matter where they go.