How come Lissandra got her waveclear nerfed before Zed did?

Strawberrycocoa·Mar 12, 2015·124 votes·6,240 views

If ANYBODY needed a waveclear and lane-safety nerf, it was Zed.

151 Comments

VoidacMar 12, 201557 votes

Because Lissandra stops Zed or can defend against Zed thus stopping those #LC$BIGPLAYS. And dear god we can't be having that.

redniwediSMar 12, 20158 votes

Please tell me you're a troll, and you don't actually believe that nonsense...

Leti the YetiMar 12, 201511 votes

You seem new to the boards

redniwediSMar 12, 20155 votes

Na, the internet just hasn't beaten my sense of optimism out of me yet.

Leti the YetiMar 12, 20153 votes

distinguishing trollings, jokes, ongoing gags, inside jokes, sarcasm, etc. is vital to your survival on the internet I suggest you close all other tabs and find yourself a guide to the internetz ;o

redniwediSMar 12, 20155 votes

That's one way to do it. Or I could continue insulting people's idiotic posts in a way that gets around Riot's "don't be a jerk" rule.

Leti the YetiMar 12, 20157 votes

they're not necessarily idiotic either sarcasm,humor in general is a pretty intelligent way to criticize something

it just takes a brain to understand it

redniwediSMar 12, 20153 votes

They are not always idiotic, however in this case it fits. Also idiocy is not mutually exclusive with humor or sarcasm.

Leti the YetiMar 12, 20158 votes

I'm not sure how its idiot in this case we know Riot's infatuation with the LCS we know Riot's infatuation with "flashy plays" we know Zed fits into all the above we know Riot tends to safeguard such champs from nerfs the very nerfs that suggested in this thread so nothing is exactly false, other than the conclusion drawn from it may be false

the LCSBIGPLAYS-esque posts are a very common way to criticize riot its relevant, widely agreed upon anyway, and an explanation to the question at hand

sooo again, idiocy is uuh where?

SammystormMar 12, 20153 votes

Sarcasm is relatively easy for our culture to do. Try to insult some one with out using sarcasm see how it works out.

StrawberrycocoaMar 12, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Please tell me you're a troll, and you don't actually believe that nonsense...

Zed's waveclear and power-farming is ridiculous on someone who has no resource constraints to worry about. Plus he's an assassin; he's SUPPOSED to struggle to remain relevant if he doesn't get fed. Being able to powerfarm the way he can negates anything gained by avoiding feeding him kills.

Assassins aren't SUPPOSED to be farmers, they're supposed to be predators. Zed gets the full package for some reason though. It aggravates me.

redniwediSMar 12, 20153 votes

And yet none of those points were in the post I was responding to.

StrawberrycocoaMar 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And yet none of those points were in the post I was responding to.

Sorry, I can't always tell who is being responded too, thought it was to me.

redniwediSMar 12, 20153 votes

No problem, I was responding to this guy.

Because Lissandra stops Zed or can defend against Zed thus stopping those #LC$BIGPLAYS. And dear god we can't be having that.

GodSupport KatieMar 13, 20151 votes

Because zed brings hard cc to his team right? Zed even if he farms, without kills hes useless. Lissandra on the other hand has the CC to contribute to her team even if not fed. Also just because one champ has problems doesn't mean the other champ should be ignored. Thats like saying that because lee is strong jarvan shouldn't have been nerfed.

AMYS GRAVEMar 13, 20151 votes

But Zed's passive means he can always last hit under tower with ease. This means he will always be able to farm himself into relevancy because he will always be able to purchase the items he needs, even when behind.

StrawberrycocoaMar 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because zed brings hard cc to his team right? Zed even if he farms, without kills hes useless. Lissandra on the other hand has the CC to contribute to her team even if not fed. Also just because one champ has problems doesn't mean the other champ should be ignored. Thats like saying that because lee is strong jarvan shouldn't have been nerfed.

Gold is gold, if he power farms the difference low kill count won't matter on his effectiveness.

And the comparison was on the rationale behind the nerf: reducing waveclear to reduce lane safety. Zed is crazy safe with his waveclear and mobility, plus having oppressive burst damage. If anyone deserves a safety nerf, he does.

GodSupport KatieMar 15, 20151 votes

So let me ask you this, if he didn't have safety how viable do you think he would be? In a lane that's full of ranged harass out the ass if he didn't have any safety i guarantee you he would be shit. And exactly what mid laner isn't safe anyways? Even those without mobility are safe as hell.

Guy Fox TeemoMar 12, 201519 votes

Because lissandra doesn't have to waste their entire combo to do it. Because lissandra can do it constantly, because lissandra can do it free of charge if her passive is up.

Leti the YetiMar 12, 201519 votes

remember back when people wanted to change lissandra's passive? and now people be like oh its what allows her to poke infinitely ;o

jimmylismMar 12, 201510 votes

Yeah that was literally weeks ago, people on here change their minds often

AnidanMar 12, 20155 votes

Because a lot of people on these boards don't know a thing about balance but they're willing to complain as if they do. I hate to say it, but sometimes I'm glad Riot doesn't listen to us when it comes to balance. People change their minds completely about a champion in a span of days when nothing changes at all.

I still remember when Katarina a few weeks ago was literally never mentioned on the forums. Then maybe someone was nerfed recently? Now she needs gutted according to the forums? Really? That's a hell of a change.

ReazaleMar 12, 20157 votes

Or maybe is cos the game changed , i mean, its not like they destroy mana reg overall, who would have guessed that a passive that gave u a free cast would become good when mana started to matter more.

Rinky DinkyMar 13, 20151 votes

People have been saying Katarina is op for a long, long, long time

AuryielMar 12, 20152 votes

I still want her passive to be changed

It's lame as hell and doesn't fit her

That hasn't changed and her power level will never change that

calforraiMar 12, 20153 votes

if you consistently land your cc/spells and try to hit as many enemy targets with your W and R you can reset the cooldown of your passive very quickly in teamfights

her passive does fit her playstyle from this perspective liss already have enough power in her 4 abilities so she doesn't need a passive that helps her deal more damage nor does she need a passive that increase her survivability because u're supposed to use ur ult wisely and choose the right time to go in so a more utility based passive is fine for her

SpecterVonBarenMar 12, 20154 votes

To be fair, the mana regen changes in Season 5 contributed to this. Although everyone's mana regen was hit, those with passive that either give free spells or give you mana have become more valuable because of them alongside resourceless and energy using champions.

VoidacMar 12, 201537 votes

Free of charge? Her Q costs 85 mana at level 1, her W costs 80 mana at level 1 and has a 24 second cooldown. She has horrible mana regen, her passive takes 18 seconds to proc (minus CC)... no, she cannot do it for free. You know who else can clear lanes with only 2 abilities? Xerath, Syndra, Ziggs, Varus...

Chaotic ReksMar 12, 20151 votes

[deleted]

DivewingMar 12, 201536 votes

strong mobility strong mobility strong mobility 1 skill thats maxed last with a delayed telegraphed activation with base cooldown of 24 seconds. Go home bro, you drunk and high as fuck

TotalJerkMar 12, 20151 votes

{quoted} a delayed telegraphed activation with base cooldown of 24 seconds.

That sounds familiar.

NinjaFiferMar 12, 20157 votes

What, Urgot? I can't think of a single other champ who has to wait after activation to use their mobility. Zed can cast his shadow then instantly press the button again and still get max distance.

Mr BorgMar 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

What, Urgot? I can't think of a single other champ who has to wait after activation to use their mobility. Zed can cast his shadow then instantly press the button again and still get max distance.

Corki.

Although if his argument is that liss is too mobile because she can dash as often as one of the least mobile adcs.....

NinjaFiferMar 13, 20154 votes

Corki doesn't require a second button press or a delay. He's got a travel time, sure, but not something that is as easily interrupted.

The comparison here is Liss versus Zed, btw. The original comment that started this line of thought got deleted, so the whole thing feels out of place.

PurodyuusaaMar 12, 201532 votes

Are you trying to convince people that Lissandra can Q more often than Zed...

Brenticus12Mar 12, 20153 votes

I thought Lissandra can Q more often than Zed can? I mean mana costs do come into effect too but technically her wave clear is as strong as Zed's and she makes more of an effect in teamfights and can 1v1 if she wants to.

junglerboy16Mar 12, 20158 votes

She actually can genius. 3 second CD at rank 5 (which is when wave clearing starts to matter).

AMYS GRAVEMar 12, 201513 votes

An exercise in resource management: lv 18 Zed against lv 18 Lissandra. : BEGIN!

Zed can spam his weq combo (6 seconds of cooldown) followed by eq combo (8 more seconds of cooldown) back to weq combo for ~1:45 without going ooe thanks to his energy returns on mimiced casts.

Lissandra by comparison using ONLY her q will go oom in ~1:15 seconds. Yes i took into account her free spells. Yes i took into account mana regen.

Then Zed skips just one eq and gets all his energy back and can continue while Lissandra had to leave.

junglerboy16Mar 12, 20153 votes

My point is still 100% valid that she can spam Q much more often than Zed can, and I never said anything about how long she can do it for. You are also looking at an optimal situation for Zed, because his energy costs go down with level. In the mid game (when Lissandra's wave clear is most relevant to the game because the ADC hasn't ramped up all the way) and the time frame that I was discussing (level 9 for maxed Q) her passive has a much larger impact on her spam than Zed's energy return has at that point. Shadow is almost never maxed first, and at rank 5 Q, rank 1 W and rank 2 E like he would have at lvl 9, his total energy cost is 145, and his energy return is only 40 (assuming he hits his Q and E twice), meaning every rotation of WQE costs him 105 net energy, which leaves him OOE after 2-3 full rotations at most, but since he only needs to clear a wave every 30 seconds, he could probably stay topped up for a little more than that. Lissandra meanwhile cleared a wave (before the nerf) with only 1-2 Qs and a couple AAs, meaning she could easily out sustain a Zed in the mid game if she is focusing on just pushing the wave as it comes.

Regardless, I don't think either champion is OP or broken really, they are both just a bit strong.

AMYS GRAVEMar 12, 20155 votes

A thought provoking post with some good points.

My point is still 100% valid that she can spam Q much more often than Zed can

While that is true my only point is that was not the whole story.

You are also looking at an optimal situation for Zed, because his energy costs go down with level.

That is also the optimal situation for Lissandra, because her cd's go down with level and her maximum mana goes up her mana regen goes up by level etc....

her passive has a much larger impact on her spam than Zed's energy return

Zed's 80 energy return (because both q and e give 40 energy return each) gives him more than enough energy for a spell every time his shadow is up, which is 18 seconds at lv 1, so i think they are pretty comparable.

lv 9 then.

His weq costs a total of 145 energy with an 80 energy return. + 6 seconds eq costs 105 +6 seconds eq costs 105 +6 seconds weq again. This pattern costs 355 energy, he returned 80, and regenerated 180 energy for a net cost of only 95 energy. You aren't counting his energy regen which makes a HUGE difference. He gets 6 full rotations of abilities on cd and then he skips one eq combo and can continue this pattern. He can use abilities on cd for 5/6 of the time.

Regardless, I don't think either champion is OP or broken really, they are both just a bit strong.

I know that neither of them is OP, in fact i think zed is underpowerd but any straight up numbers buffs will likely reinforce a playstyle that is unhealthy for the game. If anything he should be veigar-level reworked without the gutting. In any case i think this exercise into resource management can be enlightening and i find that most people are surprised by zed's actual resource costs when they realize that he can return 80 energy and that procs on minions too.

junglerboy16Mar 12, 20152 votes

The energy return actually scales with ranks in W (20/25/30/35/40 energy per double spell hit), so he only gets 40 from hitting both Q and E until W is ranked up. I did account for him getting energy regen, which is why I said instead of running OOE after 2-3 rotations he would be able to do quite a few more by regaining energy naturally between waves.

My point about Lissandra's passive having more impact is that it gives her a whole free spell, and early on having a whole free spell stretches her mana pool considerably. more than Zed's energy return stretches his, the only difference being that Zed's resource regens faster naturally outside of his energy regaining mechanic.

AMYS GRAVEMar 13, 20151 votes

The energy return actually scales with ranks in W (20/25/30/35/40 energy per double spell hit)

Touche. at lv 9 you've probably only got one rank in his w. If i redo the math they actually both last around 1:15, so we have come to the conclusion that Zed has comparable (not superior) waveclear to a mage, and doesn't have to go back to regen his resource.

This is why most people think Zeds waveclear is unfair. He can assassinate, waveclear, roam, splitpush, farm under tower with ease, etc.... He is just good at so many things and waveclear shouldn't be part of an assassins identity, also if his waveclear is nerfed it might be reasonable to increase his assassination power in compensation. If they take away one part of his kit, they can buff another to do something about that 46-47% winrate he's sporting, and i think i speak for most in this thread when i say that his waveclear is a pretty painless place to pull it from.

BakedLotionMar 12, 201582 votes

{quoted}

Because lissandra doesn't have to waste their entire combo to do it. Because lissandra can do it constantly, because lissandra can do it free of charge if her passive is up.

Free of charge. Funny you mention that CAUSE ZED IS FUCKING RESOURCELESS.

NinjaToad99Mar 12, 20159 votes

{quoted} CAUSE ZED IS FUCKING RESOURCELESS.

Technically he's manaless not resourceless. Even if he generally doesn't have much energy problems.

Kuroi86Mar 12, 20155 votes

CAUSE ZED IS FUCKING RESOURCELESS.

Please think before you derp post again. Zed uses energy and has to manage his energy or else risk running out and being in a worse position than most mages.

Zero Suit SenpaiMar 12, 201529 votes

{quoted}

Please think before you derp post again. Zed uses energy and has to manage his energy or else risk running out and being in a worse position than most mages.

If you're in a worse position than most mages as Zed, you're doing it wrong.

Hinagiku33Mar 13, 20155 votes

Pretty sure you can't be in a worse position than a mage as Zed even if you tried. I mean, I guess you could just use all your abilities outside of creep range and then walk straight into their tower...

B1naryB0tMar 13, 20153 votes

Serious question, how are you in a worse position than most mages? Energy regens absurdly fast compared to mana, you have safe farming, especially since you're AD and your passive makes that easy.

Kuroi86Mar 13, 20154 votes

No energy or shadow means you're a melee ranged sitting duck.