Does Veterans Scars look over-nerfed to anyone else?

Strawberrycocoa·Dec 9, 2015·167 votes·6,765 views

Going form a bonus of 4% bonus health to 45 just feels... HARSH. You got 45 bonus health from the old version at as little as 1,125 health, which any character will have by mid-late game. >_<

101 Comments

CrettDec 9, 201550 votes

WAY overnerfed. Tanks really weren't too strong

RebonackDec 9, 20158 votes

{quoted}

WAY overnerfed. Tanks really weren't too strong

What game have you been playing?

Tanks and Juggernauts have been crazy since the Whisper nerf.

Irelia BotDec 9, 201524 votes

People don't understand that it takes well over 400 armor to have the current LW items compete with old LW.

RebonackDec 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UHYa47eU,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T02:16:36.284+0000)

People don't understand that it takes well over 400 armor to have the current LW items compete with old LW.

At this point I'm not sure why I even try. Do people think that Trundle became as strong as he is right now for no reason at all? That it had nothing to do with Mundo and friends stomping all over top? The only outlier has been Quinn and that's being addressed.

AnidanDec 9, 20159 votes

People on these boards think tanks are always at a balanced or weak state, never too strong unless it's something absurd like Cinderhulk beefing up literally anyone even close to resembling the word 'tanky.'

Arguing with these people that tanks are pretty damn strong right now, and some of the nerfs can actually be justified, is like arguing with people that Vayne is short-ranged, and for similar reasons.

macromiteDec 9, 20154 votes

the thing is that trundle has been this strong for along time, its just now that people are starting to realize it.

Irelia BotDec 9, 20152 votes

Well it is more of a case of his strenghts counter that which is strong while that which has been counterable through things like LW got overall nerfed.

The Yetii RiderDec 9, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UHYa47eU,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T02:16:36.284+0000)

People don't understand that it takes well over 400 armor to have the current LW items compete with old LW.

You shouldn't NEED to have old LW value because armor has been nerfed across the board. With 100% crit and 250% bonus damage on each crit you can kill tanks just fine with peel and positioning.

RebonackDec 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You shouldn't NEED to have old LW value because armor has been nerfed across the board. With 100% crit and 250% bonus damage on each crit you can kill tanks just fine with peel and positioning.

ADCs lost 50-60 raw attack damage late game depending on who you're talking about. They also lost all their armor pen against soft targets and a large chunk of it against hard ones.

Still a good change, though. It allowed Riot to shift ADC focus from raw statistical power to their kits, which is far more interesting.

Even if the numbers are still off at both extremes ( Quinn vs KogMaw )

Irelia BotDec 9, 20155 votes

and where does this leave the champs who didn't build for crit chance?

Last I checked most AD assassins are kinda in a shitty spot and getting buffed for the time being as compilation.

The Yetii RiderDec 9, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UHYa47eU,comment-id=00000000000000010001,timestamp=2015-12-09T05:36:17.243+0000)

and where does this leave the champs who didn't build for crit chance?

Last I checked most AD assassins are kinda in a shitty spot and getting buffed for the time being as compilation.

Assassins shouldn't be able to kill tanks, that's the point of tanks.

Assassins need more damage against squishies. An item that gives you % missing health damage would be fine.

Irelia BotDec 9, 20151 votes

they have had issues killing anything and the new LW items are still going to be bought by them.

The Yetii RiderDec 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UHYa47eU,comment-id=0000000000000001000100000000,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:09:06.738+0000)

they have had issues killing anything and the new LW items are still going to be bought by them.

item 3033 is still good on assassins, since it reduces the amount of lifesteal the enemy carry can gain.

Handin Out NapsDec 9, 20153 votes

It isn't at all, you should be killing carries faster than they can lifesteal, that item is just a waste of a slot unless their entire team is tanky, and at that point you are getting the other last whisper item. That item is literal garbage on assassins.

Sozan5Dec 9, 20151 votes

True.

But old LW was too good in every possible scenario, there was no point in NOT getting it. Right now you pick LW if you want to be a tank buster, because it's not effective against squishies.

Irelia BotDec 10, 20151 votes

old LW was too good

Current LW item upgrades are lacking the power to get through enemies though.

And BotRK basically got a double whammy since the base armor is still always there in full effect to reduce it's effectiveness.

Sozan5Dec 10, 20151 votes

I don't know... It seems to go through tanks as intended, especially the one with Giant Slayer passive (whatever its name is). If it's really not enough, then increasing the %penetration slightly might be a way to go.

Irelia BotDec 10, 20151 votes

http://i.imgur.com/E2lY3Kc.png

Sozan5Dec 10, 20151 votes

Yup, increasing it by 5% seems like a good idea, but other than that it looks pretty reasonable.

Especially if you take into account that now both LDR and MoR have additional passives that help fighting tanks. MoR obviously has the grevious wounds that reduces the effectivness of self heals (so, good against Tanks like Mundo, Warwick and the likes, while also providing some edge while fighting sustain mages or ADCs). On the other hand LDR has straight up damage increase, which will easily put LDR on the same level as old Last Whisper at 300 bonus armor (in this specific case), if not earlier (after the penetration buffs, which will probably occur in next patch).

Mind you that stacking armor is still supposed to be effective against physical damage dealers, even with the penetration item. That's why different damage types exist and for that very same reason there are almost no items that grant both Armor and Magic Resist (2 on summoner's rift - Zz'Rot Portal and Guardian Angel) - to encourage teams to use mixed damage types, instead of multiple physical ones (or magical ones for that matter).

Of course, there is also The Black Cleaver, but I don't know the exact interaction between it's armor reduction and Last Whisper's penetration (but I presume that Black Cleaver reduction applies to bonus armor first and only lowers base if bonus is not sufficient).

That said, TBC is still extremely good against armor - possibly better than Last Whisper and its upgrades, but you have to stack it on the target (which may be difficult depending on the champion you are playing).

bobsenbobDec 10, 20151 votes

then again, it also lost 1000 g in cost and 15 ad so since 15 ad is worth 525 g, it's 475g cheaper and has the new passive. Therefore, it's not really fair to compare the items considering that the old one was 1k g cheaper

StellafreyjaDec 9, 201513 votes

It's a trade off. 4% bonus health obviously scales better into mid and late game, but 45 health is far better for early game.

EndlessSorcererDec 9, 20155 votes

It was 4% total health, not bonus.

AbyssphereDec 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

It was 4% total health, not bonus.

He meant getting 4% bonus health from it. In any case, he's right. You trade late game strength for early game strength, particularly for squishies. For tanks it's just a nerf full stop.

Silents429Dec 9, 20155 votes

I don't think it counts as a full nerf for tanks either, this buffs tank junglers early game by a bit too, 45HP is 2 more attacks from a gromp or blue buff.

CarnariusDec 9, 20156 votes

{quoted}

I don't think it counts as a full nerf for tanks either, this buffs tank junglers early game by a bit too, 45HP is 2 more attacks from a gromp or blue buff.

you mean 20 hp is 2 more attacks from small wolf

Silents429Dec 9, 20153 votes

You have me quoted so I don't know what the mistake was?

Jungle Lux GodDec 9, 20155 votes

He's saying that the difference in the health you get is only 20 health instead of 45 health because old Veteran's Scars were still giving extra health in the early game.

DurzakaDec 9, 20151 votes

Except the other mastery on that tier is increased healer. Which is better at literally every point in the game when compared to 45 hp.

StellafreyjaDec 9, 20151 votes

Was I talking about it in comparison to Runic Armor? No.

DurzakaDec 9, 20151 votes

You have to talk in comparison to Runic Armor. it is the other fucking option for the same points.

StellafreyjaDec 9, 20151 votes

This thread is about comparing 45 flat health to +4% total health. If you want to discuss Runic Armor versus Veteran's Scars, you can create your own thread.

DurzakaDec 9, 20151 votes

Except the conversations are linked.

4% total health was potentially worth taking over Runic Armor.

45 health is NEVER worth taking over Runic Armor. They might as well delete the mastery it is that bad right now.

PartholonianDec 9, 201512 votes

On the other hand the new version gives you 45 health AT LEVEL 1. That's a lot of health early game. Nobody starts with 1125 health, so it's an early game buff for every champion (and a late game nerf for most, especially the ones that were in that tree in the first place).

By late game you have items, so arguably the early game is when masteries have the most impact anyway.

EndlessSorcererDec 9, 20156 votes

I'd rather take Runic Armor for improves healing from Potions and natural Health Regeneration.

Unless I all-in people immediately after returning to lane, I'm going to restore more than 45 extra health from the mastery pretty quickly, even early game.

DurzakaDec 9, 20156 votes

45 hp is really awesome early.

The idea is great, change from a later game item, to early game power.

The problem is it is on the same tier as Runic Armor, which is just so much better than Veterans Scar, even before the change. Now, the bonus to Potions is almost enough to replace the 45 hp from Scars just from buying 3 potions at the start.

ModKnightsKemplarDec 9, 20155 votes

You have to look at their intention here...

Tanks were doing pretty well with scaling stuff like this. Other trees didn't really have that. Plus, scaling it with health made it much less attractive to any champs would take the old one (which was flat) for a little extra health early.

If tanks are suffering after this, they will add power elsewhere, but this is a great change. Other champs need that health too, and it shouldn't scale so hard with hp.

PrimaquariusDec 9, 20152 votes

Actually the former HP mastery was 3% increase, so its really just them fking around for no reason. What we need is the 3% mastery back, and to put it near the bottom so Carries cant use it without cutting power

ModKnightsKemplarDec 9, 20153 votes

They WANT carries using it. They literally say that in the patch notes. That's my point. It's not supposed to be better for tanks. The later stuff is.

RalanrDec 9, 20154 votes

I'm worried for Sion .

ChaosThiefDec 9, 20153 votes

It wasn't a nerf, it was a swap.

It went from very weak early game (20 bonus HP assuming 500 max hp) to 45, which is very substantial early game, rather than a late game "give me all the health" option.

RisenDarkKnightDec 9, 20152 votes

Almost no character has 500 hp though. Pretty much everyone gets above 600 with doran's, and tanks get 800 hp at lvl 1. Only like sona will have close to 500 hp. Everyone else is nearly 600 or higher.

JESUSSAYSNODec 9, 20153 votes

Absurdly heavy nerf to tanks. More accessibility to non-tanks with weak earlygame.

Jungle Lux GodDec 9, 20153 votes

Honestly, the idea wasn't bad but the execution was horrible.

It wasn't a bad idea to change the mastery because there was so much late game and not enough early game because there was only two mastery that were early game focused tank masteries. Everything else was either late game focused or utility masteries in the tank tree.

In particular, you had two late game masteries competing at that level for your late game scaling. Now you have one mastery competing for your early game and one mastery competing for your late game.

Actually, you have only one option because Veteran's Scars is really bad now.

EndlessSorcererDec 9, 20154 votes

I'm pretty sure Runic Armor beats Veteran's Scars in pretty much every situation at this point (early and late) since it improves healing from health regeneration and potions.

I don't think I'm going to be taking Veteran's Scars on anyone after this.

SteelflameDec 9, 20152 votes

Runic beats Veterans the moment you reach 526 hp regened/shielded since the last time you went to base. 3 hp potions + any regeneration/lifesteal/shielding at all do this easily at level 1, and by level 12? You could passively regen enough hp between fights to beat Vets value.

Dumpster FireDec 9, 20153 votes

The nerf is so large that there is not reason to take it. I thought the point of these tree's was to no create minimal game impacting masteries. I feel like it is huge, they continue to nerf AP items and tank items while giving huge boons to those who use AD items. Why is there no AP item that gives up to 20% CDR when building AP like Essence Reaver giving a huge boon to building damage? I think the direction they are going is good but feel they are making the game so marksmen friendly that it will literally be a marksman bot and mid.

StrawberrycocoaDec 9, 20155 votes

Eeehhhh, over the years it's really felt strongly like a lot of the balancing is done around the existence of Marksmen.

They're so weak unless they are defended and actively supported that any other class (even some of the Supports) can eat them alive 1v1 unless the marksmen have a huge gold lead. But marksmen are ALSO super important to have because they add sustained resourceless damage to the team, and are crucial in quickly seiging towers and objectives. So a lot of the other classes end up getting nerfed when they make marksmen too miserable, which leads to Marksmen having an easier time without receiving a lot of adjustments to allow for it.

If Marksmen were more self-reliant and didn't require active protection so they can launch repeated auto attacks safely, the game balancing wouldn't have to be done around them like it is.

DrackolusDec 9, 20152 votes

You get 1125 health at level 4 with a typical tank, even support. Thankfully, Runic Armor is awesome for anyone that regains health. Which is almost all tanks.

DengedenDec 9, 20151 votes

The opposing mastery has good late. VS is now good for your early early game. Support who don't just sit in lane waiting for lv9 will like that.

galdameshDec 9, 20152 votes

except the 8% healing and shielding will be stronger even at lvl 1 between pots and coin regen or relic shield procs. spell thief the 45 health might be better at lvl 1 but will be outclassed by lvl 3 and one pot