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Ivern is a shining example of how support itemization might need some adjusting.

Eedat··22 votes·2,009 views

A Jungler that builds nothing but ridiculously cheap, but very effective support items is rocking a 57% win rate because of it.

These builds are so insanely cheap compared to any other build path, but are just as effective.

Lets do some comparisons with other popular champs:

Caitlyn : item 3031 item 3085 item 3006 item 3094 item 3072 item 3036 = 16,300 Gold

Darius : item 3071 item 3111 item 3742 item 3065 item 3143 item 3026 = 15,100 Gold

Ahri : item 3165 item 3285 item 3020 item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 = 16,550 Gold

Zed : item 3142 item 3147 item 3111 item 3071 item 3156 item 3026 = 15,900 Gold

Ezreal : item 3004 item 3078 item 3158 item 3153 item 3036 item 3139 = 16,533 Gold

Riven : item 3142 item 3071 item 3111 item 3814 item 3074 item 3026 = 16,000 Gold.

Graves : item 1412 item 3071 item 3047 item 3812 item 3046 item 3036 = 15,500 Gold.

Orianna : Same as Ahri = 16,550 Gold.

Then you get...

Ivern : item 3174 item 3107 item 3158 item 3190 item 3504 item 3109 = 11,900 Gold.

Why is it that a build that costs 4-5k less than any other build allowed to be as effective, if not MORE EFFECTIVE, as them? He gets huge powerspikes early and his build doesnt even fall off.

He still has a 55% winrate past the 40 minute mark

http://champion.gg/champion/Ivern/Jungle

How can you justify that such an insanely cheap build is allowed to stand anywhere remotely close to the same level of power as a build that costs 4k more gold?

There are two possible solutions.

  1. Attack Ivern himself and spare the supports

  2. Attack how ridiculously efficient these support items are

Pick your poison.

26 Comments

Mannny15 votes

Support items are low gold because supports don't get as much gold income as the other roles. Ivern just does too much with those items. Nerfing items just because 1 guy abuses it is not a valid reason.

Eedat5 votes
  1. Attack Ivern himself and spare the supports

and

I am fully aware that supports do not get much gold which is why the items are cheap. This is why I believe Ivern is an abuse case. These items are balanced around being a gold deprived support. Ivern, however, has the full income of the jungle which is causing problems.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/nEAjJpER-ivern-is-a-shining-example-of-how-support-itemization-might-need-some-adjusting?comment=00010000

AirKingNeo2 votes

Or alternatively Ivern is perfectly fine and the items are actually the problem. Karma and Lulu permashielding isn't fun nor fair, especially with their strong lane power. Sona's late game is absurd, but at least she isn't permashielding.

Eedat2 votes

Thats option 2

  1. Attack how ridiculously efficient these support items are
Opistach1 votes

{quoted}

Support items are low gold because supports don't get as much gold income as the other roles. Ivern just does too much with those items. Nerfing items just because 1 guy abuses it is not a valid reason.

Ezreal and every sheen item comes to mind.

Brutalitops014 votes

You justify it with a few things: 1: Supports don't get as much gold in general 2: It heavily relies on your allies being good to make it work

With support champions, you have cheaper items because you don't farm and you only get assist gold. Add in that if your team doesn't play well, you become completely useless, and you see why supports are the least popular role.

That being said, Riot has said that they are planning on doing some ADC item adjustments, primarily in crit items, in the midseason alongside the tank update, and they will also do some adjustments to support items.

Let's also not forget the fact that you're comparing a support build to a carry build, which is just stupid to do. Supports don't solo carry games, they don't have the damage to. Yes, a good support can keep even the worst carries alive, but if that carry doesn't have the damage to make proper use of that protection, the protection may as well not even exist.

Eedat5 votes

Then you agree with option 1:

  1. Attack Ivern himself and spare the supports

I am fully aware that supports do not get much gold which is why the items are cheap. This is why I believe Ivern is an abuse case. These items are balanced around being a gold deprived support. Ivern, however, has the full income of the jungle which is causing problems.

Handy Sandy 3 votes

If support builds were so effective why are we not seeing supports supporting adcs and midlaners instead and doing better than them. It's Ivern's kit, not the items themselves.

Ben Sharpio2 votes

locket/redemption make it literally impossible to effectively kill carries late game, which is the primary reason why ltrying to kill a late game adcs is the worst gameplay experience anyone can have. If supports could earn more gold, then locket/redemption would actually ruin this game. Luckily they dont make enough gold to make use of these items, so they have ridiculous amounts of shields and healing on low CD's

LordGeovanni3 votes

dont want to give supports the power to make plays bot lane becuase it bothers adc farming then complain when some one who isnt even a support finds good use of the items because the skills riot give to supports they put stronger versions on other champions and everything riot makes for supports tanks and fighters some one else finds so way to be more usefull with it so its nerfed to the point that everything is irrelivant.

DarkRitual2 votes

Part of the difference with him is he doesn't need combat stats to clear camps. So he can go straight into support items on jungler income.

Not saying it's not an issue, but that there's a reason he can take such a unique buildpath as a jungler.

OverpoweredSoap2 votes

The problem is that Ivern gets FULL gold from "saving" the camps he gets his passive on.

Support items are cheaper because supports generally don't get full kill/farm gold.

Ivern's passive is the problem, it lets him get support items earlier because he gets full gold from clearing camps from said passive. This allows him to reach his support build faster than any other support, who are usually held back because they don't get gold as fast.

Add in the fact that he's a jungler, he's going to be roaming more than other supports and he's able to bring his supportive power to every lane more often.

Perhaps making him receive less gold (say 75% of 50% instead) will bring him in place rather than nerfing his actual kit.

Merely a suggestion, riot could simply just nerf the rest of his kit instead.

Eedat2 votes

I think he doesn't get full gold on Krugs, but full gold from the rest. Either way his income is much higher than a support

TheSnacken1 votes

It is full gold. Just FYI.

50000000000000001 votes

That's back when krugs gave more gold/xp than raptors, I think. Now that it's normalized, that issue is gone.

RavenMagus2 votes

But if you nerf Ivern...

Who steps in and becomes an efficient support-jungler after him?

I'd be surprised if it didn't happen.

(My money's on Nautilus, btw)

Eedat3 votes

You can nerf a champ without gutting them

RavenMagus1 votes

What do you nerf about Ivern, though? He's pretty much already just a mobile platform for support items.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

What do you nerf about Ivern, though? He's pretty much already just a mobile platform for support items.

Honestly I think were looking at the wrong aspects. Considering that OP's main complain mentions nothing about Ivern's kit, but rather states a) Support itemization is busted, b) Ivern can build this faster than any other Jungle build, and faster than any support, and c) the Jungler functioning as a support is some how oppressive.

Considering the supports are historically disfranchised by the rest of the team, I feel like the supports should be the only ones complaining about their itemization. (Assuming they feel obligated to build the OP redemption and locket) The second point it pretty much simple math. The third point however, I find to be a load of crap. Trading a more carry oriented Jungler, for a support Jungler is going to limit your teams damage potential in exchange for adding in more healing and utility. Also keep in mind that Redemption and Locket already have diminishing returns when used in rapid succession. making the stacking on both Jungle and support less effective. This does however give more variation in comp, cause if an Ivern Jungle focused on that supportive utility, a mage support like Brand, Malz, or Zyra, can afford to focus on more damage.

As for Ivern himself, (Assuming it's him, and support itemization) I think Riot was intending him to be a supportive Jungler, so likely they will strip away things that make him more than that. (I know his mechanic can be oppressive, in early invades) I know earlier, Ivern's Daisy basically functioned as a 6th member, and functioned a lot like a tank. Though Riot addressed this some what by removing Daisy's healing. Perhaps Ivern isn't Vulnerable enough for what he brings.

Last note, If their was one way a Support item was busted on a Jungler. Just keep in mind that Ivern can easily get a blue buff for himself giving him lots of mana regen. Now combined that with the Harmony passive on any of the chalice items, and you will end up with a ton of HP regen as well.

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

You can nerf a champ without gutting them

that entirely depends whether or not the champion is 1 of riots beloved ones

Clementine2 votes

"Attack support items"

Why don't we remove the role altogether? League Boards balance team back at it again with the bright ideas

Edit: Also that Ivern build is godawful. 50% CDR with cooldown boots, zzzz. Way to put a lot of thought into your post

AFilthyCaitMain1 votes

He honestly just seems way too good right now, and probably something about him needs nerfs, whether its items or Ivern himself.

The Deckowner1 votes

Support item is intentionally made to be cheap and effective due to the lack of gold income of supports, Ivern is a mistake.

FantasySniper1 votes

You should be comparing him to other support-ish junglers, not carries that build the most expensive items in the game.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yeah, I think support itemization is busted. The whole role is kinda in a rough spot, imo.

I know most high level players are used to how supports work in this game, but I just feel there are better ways to do it.

Bisaknosp1 votes

i would prefer to nerf ivern

q cd should be upped and something needs to be done about his e maybe only half the effect (or a little more) if you destroy the shield before it explodes that would make the slow less annoying at least

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