What is a singed supposed to do vs a Vayne top

Nekusen·Apr 29, 2016·2 votes·1,166 views

Vayne or any other ADC abusing top.

Cant farm can't do shit.

at least make block twice the dmg from ranged attacks

ADCs going top are just disgusting for actual top laners like

34 Comments

BergkApr 29, 20165 votes

Proxy farm :P

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Proxy farm :P

i thought of that, but it works when the opponent isn't ranged, with adc opponents its extremely hard to get executed.

QuephaApr 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

i thought of that, but it works when the opponent isn't ranged, with adc opponents its extremely hard to get executed.

I think you're thinking of dirty farming which is different although closely related.

Proxy farming means you stop caring about giving up kills and just keep rolling deep into enemy territory to farm as much as possible before you die. Eventually you become worth so little gold that the enemy loses more from map pressure and lost cs to take a 'free' kill from you than your actual kill gold.

People confuse them because they're both strategies closely associated with Singed, proxy farming requires dirty farming as you want to make the enemy chase you for as long as possible into territory that is a waste of time for them to be in, and dirty farming without proxy farming accomplishes pretty much the same thing, only you actually plan on not dying due to your flee potential and tankiness instead of merely being annoying to kill.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

dirty farming

that sounds extremely sexual.

Proxy farming means you stop caring about giving up kills and just keep rolling deep into enemy territory to farm as much as possible before you die. Eventually you become worth so little gold that the enemy loses more from map pressure and lost cs to take a 'free' kill from you than your actual kill gold.

proxy farming requires dirty farming as you want to make the enemy chase you

this kinda defeats itself if the enemy jungler is nerby, you get sandwiched between their top-jg and thats it. getting their top and jg fed, while you being dead most of the time ends up being worse for the team that you just afking.

QuephaApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

this kinda defeats itself if the enemy jungler is nerby, you get sandwiched between their top-jg and thats it. getting their top and jg fed, while you being dead most of the time ends up being worse for the team that you just afking.

Your intention is to just keep dying and never get a kill so your kill gold never resets. The enemy gets fed initially, but eventually you're only worth 50 gold and if they keep killing you they are actually losing more gold by not cs'ing.

DeloricVIApr 29, 20165 votes

You cry, and cry hard.

It's a really big counter pick. As squishy as Vayne is, Singed relies on going up against a lane opponent that can't chase him, but tries anyway. He's meant to be a huge distraction, putting poison down and attracting the attention of the enemy team. If you can't do that because you do nothing due to getting smacked down in lane, that's a problem. If you just die instantly because your laning phase left you broke and underleveled, then that's equally bad. Vayne is a tank buster champion, and is also super mobile. She gets extra movement speed just by walking toward you, and she also has her tumble. If you get too close to a wall, you might as well pack it in, because she's going to stun you and 3-stack auto you into oblivion. You can't walk in the minion wave, or she's going to poke the hell out of you. I guess proxy farm it up.

And this doesn't just apply to Vayne. Quinn, Lucian, and Graves are all "top laners" that will give you hell because they're super mobile and can either kite you for days, or out chase you and destroy you before you become an issue. I guess you just gotta hope Riot finds a way to keep these annoying people out of the top lane.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You cry, and cry hard.

It's a really big counter pick. As squishy as Vayne is, Singed relies on going up against a lane opponent that can't chase him, but tries anyway. He's meant to be a huge distraction, putting poison down and attracting the attention of the enemy team. If you can't do that because you do nothing due to getting smacked down in lane, that's a problem. If you just die instantly because your laning phase left you broke and underleveled, then that's equally bad. Vayne is a tank buster champion, and is also super mobile. She gets extra movement speed just by walking toward you, and she also has her tumble. If you get too close to a wall, you might as well pack it in, because she's going to stun you and 3-stack auto you into oblivion. You can't walk in the minion wave, or she's going to poke the hell out of you. I guess proxy farm it up.

And this doesn't just apply to Vayne. Quinn, Lucian, and Graves are all "top laners" that will give you hell because they're super mobile and can either kite you for days, or out chase you and destroy you before you become an issue. I guess you just gotta hope Riot finds a way to keep these annoying people out of the top lane.

much agreed, the easiest solution im thinking is making item 1054 block 18 damage for ranged basic attacks or something like that. or just making adcs rely more on support, i dk, but its really an issue.

DeloricVIApr 29, 20162 votes

I'd start with Cloth Armor and 4 pots before I go Doran's shield, personally. Doran's Shield pretty much got the shaft when it comes to starting items...

Vayne is just the one that's especially hard to deal with, because she gets some %max health true damage. It's especially dangerous for tanks who can't catch her before she gets 3 autos off. I mean, Lucian dashing around and giving you a good double-tap every time you try to trade is a problem, but it's nothing compared to Vayne.

FioraWillCarryApr 29, 20163 votes

What is a singed supposed to do vs a Vayne top

/ff

Pandemic PunchApr 29, 20163 votes

If you are standing close enough to your minions at level 1, bait the enemy laner to attack you at least once to force your minions to aggro the enemy laner. Do not attack the enemy laner back, just run once they attack you. This makes the enemy minion wave push toward you because your minions will stop fighting enemy minions for a moment while the enemy minions continue to attack your minions. If you have to give up CS to not take anymore damage then give up the CS and take whatever CS you can while trying to avoid taking damage. Do this until the wave inevitably pushes under your turret and stay under your turret to farm.

Always try to make sure the enemy minions are pushing toward you in the early stages of the game when you are stuck in a bad matchup. This makes it safer for you to farm and easier for your jungler to gank when they are ready to do so.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-04-29T05:48:28.885+0000)

Do this until the wave inevitably pushes under your turret and stay under your turret to farm.

as a melee with no ranged skills, you can still get poked under turret if trying to farm ranged minions.

Pandemic PunchMay 1, 20161 votes

And then the turret hits them. Not sure if that would be a good decision by the enemy.

NekusenMay 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tarics Gemstones,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-05-01T08:29:49.095+0000)

And then the turret hits them. Not sure if that would be a good decision by the enemy.

it doesn't, because you have to get close ranged minions, and as the adc is ranged as well, they can hit you from outside tower's range.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20162 votes

Don't first pick Singed.

You made the decision to pick an easily-countered champion. Deal with it.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-04-29T04:45:00.520+0000)

Don't first pick Singed.

blind pick, also, its a champion i enjoy, should be at least usable in the lane he was designed to be.

You made the decision to pick an easily-countered champion. Deal with it.

im speaking in general, TOP lane is a lane for melee bulky champs, so it's natural to pick one of those top. Most of not all of actual top laners are "countered" by ADCs.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20164 votes

{quoted}

TOP lane is a lane for melee bulky champs

There is no reason to assume this. Stop trying to rigidly enforce a meta.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T06:00:14.835+0000)

There is no reason to assume this. Stop trying to rigidly enforce a meta.

so in which lane are they safe to play ?

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

so in which lane are they safe to play ?

Generally speaking, top and jungle.

Singed is countered harder than most by ranged top laners. Don't like it? Don't play Singed.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T21:29:19.394+0000)

Generally speaking, top and jungle.

hence my point, jungle is kinda a neutral ground (as it isnt a lane), so top is the only lane in which they can inhabit, so riot should do something to prevent those that hard counter them (ADCs) from being there.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

hence my point, jungle is kinda a neutral ground (as it isnt a lane), so top is the only lane in which they can inhabit, so riot should do something to prevent those that hard counter them (ADCs) from being there.

Most of the best top laners right now are melee champions.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=0004000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T22:08:51.216+0000)

Most of the best top laners right now are melee champions.

which still get hard countered by ADCs going top.

AlwaysByMySideApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

which still get hard countered by ADCs going top.

If that were the case, ADCs would be the best top laners.

They're not.

Some of these tanky meta top laners may be denied in lane against some top lane ADCs, but who cares? The meta top laner goes on to win the game.

Oh, and Pantheon dominates every top lane ADC in lane. Sion does okay against them, Ekko beats them, Malphite does fine against most of them in lane and then starts killing them once he gets sunfire, Fizz can beat them, Wukong beats most of them, etc.

Also, when you say "ADCs" just say "Quinn and Graves, also occasionally Vayne".

Those are the only ADCs that go top lane.

Quinn and Graves are both solid top laners, with Vayne being more of a situational cheese pick, and while Quinn may be a little too strong she's not significantly overperforming to the extent of Ekko. She also fares poorly against divers like Irelia or Wukong, against beefy walls that she can't kill or push out of lane like Mundo, or against tanks that vastly outscale her in teamfight ability.

Singed is just particularly bad against ranged champions, and always has been. Don't want to be dominated by ADCs in lane? Then play someone else.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-29T23:01:07.970+0000)

If that were the case, ADCs would be the best top laners.

They're not.

Some of these tanky meta top laners may be denied in lane against some top lane ADCs, but who cares?

people that use those champions and people that like a balanced and healthy game

Those are the only ADCs that go top lane.

tristana also goes top lane, and any other than wants to go top would still beat most melee top lanners, but even 1 of them going top is already a problem.

to the extent of Ekko

at least you can dodge almost everything ekko throws at you, i'd rather face 2 Ekkos in my lane before an adc very day of the week.

She also fares poorly against divers like Irelia or Wukong.

people with gap closers always have a way to kinda surpass the range advantage, this is about those who don't, thats why im using singed as an example.

Singed is just particularly bad against ranged champions, and always has been. Don't want to be dominated by ADCs in lane? Then play someone else.

thats like saying "hey, don't complain about balance or game health and just silently play champs that are currently favored by the patch, don't do stuff like using champions you find enjoyable to use"

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

people that use those champions

Biased people.

and people that like a balanced and healthy game

"Healthy" does not mean "my champion's counters can't go in my lane".

Also, only Quinn is imbalanced as a top laner. Graves is fine after his nerfs, and the others are so niche as to not warrant discussion.

tristana also goes top lane,

Her W is on a 22 second cooldown and she maxes it last. Make her use it if you can, and if you can't right away you will be able to once you get some armour.

and any other than wants to go top would still beat most melee top lanners, but even 1 of them going top is already a problem.

No, they wouldn't. Only the mobile ones that can either keep melee champions off of them in a 1v1 (Vayne, Quinn) or can manfight them (Graves) do. Any other either gets BTFO right away or the moment the enemy laner gets bami's cinder and a cloth armour.

at least you can dodge almost everything ekko throws at you, i'd rather face 2 Ekkos in my lane before an adc very day of the week.

That's because you're ignorant of what is actually strong in this game.

If you believe it is harder to win the game against an ADC top than against Ekko, you're ignorant.

people with gap closers always have a way to kinda surpass the range advantage, this is about those who don't, thats why im using singed as an example.

Oh boo hoo, cry me a fucking river. An immobile melee has trouble laning against ranged champions?

Guess what? The divers I mentioned usually get dominated by immobile melee champions like Garen or Darius. Why is that okay, but it's not okay that ADCs counter certain top laners?

thats like saying "hey, don't complain about balance or game health and just silently play champs that are currently favored by the patch, don't do stuff like using champions you find enjoyable to use"

You have no idea what makes good balance or game health.

You're complaining about champions that aren't favored by the patch, that's the problem. Fucking Vayne top? If you're going to complain about something complain about the actual problems in the game's balance, like Fiora being over-nerfed, Ekko still being busted, or Soraka still being broken.

Ranged ADCs in top lane? Fuck them.

NekusenApr 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n9xrWcqA,comment-id=00040000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-04-30T00:47:43.148+0000)

Biased people.

as biased as people that say otherwise, with the same reasoning i could say those against this are ADC top players.

"Healthy" does not mean "my champion's counters can't go in my lane".

healthy mean "all champions have a lane in which they can be actually played" unhealthy would be a class being viable in every lane while hard countering people that can only be viable in 1 of those.

Also, only Quinn is imbalanced as a top laner.

as well as the ADCs.

No, they wouldn't. Only the mobile ones that can either keep melee champions off of them in a 1v1 (Vayne, Quinn) or can manfight them (Graves) do. Any other either gets BTFO right away or the moment the enemy laner gets bami's cinder and a cloth armour.

most adcs can, tristiana with her jumps, kalista with her kiting (though she is made more support reliant, which all adcs should be), Cait with her net and traps, jinx with slow and chomps and so on. so in short, adcs hard counter tanks (which is fine), if adcs are viable in the lane tanks are, then thats an issue.

That's because you're ignorant of what is actually strong in this game.

or maybe you can't dodge skillshots.

If you believe it is harder to win the game against an ADC top than against Ekko, you're ignorant.

learn to dodge skillshots, if you can't dodge the most telegraphed skillshots in the game, which are in Ekko's kit, then thats your problem. harder is to dodge autoattacks.

Oh boo hoo, cry me a fucking river. An immobile melee has trouble laning against ranged champions?

call me when you finish elementary school.

Ranged ADCs in top lane? Fuck them.

indeed

AlwaysByMySideApr 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

as biased as people that say otherwise, with the same reasoning i could say those against this are ADC top players.

You could, only I know for a fact that you play these champions and are biased for them. I, on the other hand, am a Garen main who is defending ADCs top lane.

healthy mean "all champions have a lane in which they can be actually played" unhealthy would be a class being viable in every lane while hard countering people that can only be viable in 1 of those.

It is not unhealthy for ADCs to be able to go to other lanes.

It is however arguably unhealthy that there is a lane that other classes don't get to go to, and contrary to popular belief it isn't because other classes can't lane against ADCs with a support. Pantheon + Blitzcrank is probably a stronger kill lane overall than any ADC + support combo I can think of. The problem is that Pantheon is level-reliant as a caster, and that League as it is designed requires a ranged AD DPS champion, which is bad.

Also, I've already addressed that only two can go top reliably.

Do you complain that Nasus can only go top lane, so Darius (who counters Nasus harder than any ADC) being viable top is a problem?

as well as the ADCs.

Incorrect, you stating it over and over again doesn't make you right.

most adcs can, tristiana with her jumps, kalista with her kiting (though she is made more support reliant, which all adcs should be), Cait with her net and traps, jinx with slow and chomps and so on.

Tristana's jump is on a 22 second cooldown. Are you so poor a player that you can't force her to use it and then back off to re-engage when your own cooldowns are back?

Kalista? Kalista is the most cancer adc in the game, so maybe, but as you said she's essentially neutered her kit without a support.

Cait is probably okay as a lane bully against the most immobile of immobile melees, but she still has a couple big weaknesses, which most ADCs share that I haven't even touched on. She is very weak to ganks and roams, naturally, and of course can seriously weaken your comp by depriving them of some sort of front-liner. It also doesn't take long for any of these champions to be outscaled by a typical top laner in the mid game. Sunfire is very cheap, and makes fighting the enemy ADC trivial if they haven't killed you multiple times (which only happens if you're playing poorly).

Jinx? Lol. Maybe if you're against a champion with literally no mobility at all, but know what? Most top lane tanks have some mobility.

so in short, adcs hard counter tanks (which is fine), if adcs are viable in the lane tanks are, then thats an issue.

ADCs don't lane well against tanks actually. Maokai has a point and click disable and can chunk just about any ADC in lane. Malphite counters all adcs. Ekko (hey, he's a tank now) is the stickiest champion in the game. Sion has the tools to easily bully ADCs with a powerful slow and a knockup with more ranged than most ADCs. Shen's E>Q>W combo lets him chunk ADCs while they do little damage in return. Nautilus can easily engage on ADCs. Rammus, like Malphite, is a direct counter kit-wise to ADCs. Poppy before her gutting was a dominant force top lane and could handle ADCs fine.

ADCs counter tanks in team fights by being able to reliably DPS them down. Tanks still win 1v1 versus most (Vayne is a big exception).

or maybe you can't dodge skillshots.

learn to dodge skillshots, if you can't dodge the most telegraphed skillshots in the game, which are in Ekko's kit, then thats your problem.

Ah I see, you're ignorant of how tank Ekko is played. Fair enough, you're obviously a pretty inexperienced player, so let me help you out.

Tank Ekko's Q isn't there to damage you, it's there to slow you after he engages with his E. He's an all-in champion, whose damage primarily comes from his passive. His base damages, grasp of the undying, extreme stickiness, and great utility are what make him so strong as a tank, along with tank items doing so much for so little gold.

But hey, don't take it from me, he's also among the most banned champions in the highest elos and is singled out as among the most imbalanced and broken champions in the game by former and current professional players, more-so than Graves or Quinn top. Are they also noobs who can't dodge skill shots?

harder is to dodge autoattacks.

Kek.

call me when you finish elementary school.

Read the quote above to understand the kek.

You can barely type kid. At least learn to do that much before you try to insult the intelligence of your betters.

QuephaApr 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

blind pick, also, its a champion i enjoy, should be at least usable in the lane he was designed to be.

I don't think Singed, or any other champion released around the same time as him, was designed around any specific lane. A lot of early champs seem like the team was going "well he's a time wizard and he needs to deal damage somehow... so we should give him some kind of time.. timey... time...bomb?" "sounds good, script it and ship it!"

LiveYiOrDieHardApr 29, 20162 votes

If your jungler isn't going to camp the hell out of her, you proxy farm and try to get CS while feeding.

Because if you stay in the lane you won't be getting any CS, while still feeding.

NekusenApr 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If your jungler isn't going to camp the hell out of her, you proxy farm and try to get CS while feeding.

Because if you stay in the lane you won't be getting any CS, while still feeding.

this is a good point