How does Riot intend to balance characters who have built-in synergy with each other?

Shinjusuke·Apr 4, 2017·4 votes·652 views

Looking at "Power Level" as a number, this isn't possible.

Either Xayah and Rakan are:

Balanced when together, but are "weak" when played solo
Balanced when solo, but have extraneous power in their kit when played together
Weak when together, weaker when solo
Strong when solo, even stronger when together.

Like, there's no way around it.

Sure it's not like they have specific interactions in every part of their kit, but still.

What's being done creates an issue with these champions that can't really be fixed by numbers tuning.

14 Comments

LyingOnLineApr 4, 20172 votes

Meh, I've seen their synergies.

The direct ones are incredibly minor.

DarkRitualApr 4, 20172 votes

The skill synergies aren't putting them over the top when paired, or useless when not paired. I would not say the bit they have together makes them absurdly strong. They can also easily be fixed with numbers tuning should it be an issue, as their kits aren't otherwise overloaded.

ShinjusukeApr 4, 20171 votes

That's entirely missing my point though:

I'm not pointing out that they're OP when paired or unplayable when not.

I'm pointing out that no matter how they're tuned, they're fundamentally linked, balance-wise, to each other. There's no way to tune synergy built into their kit, short of removing it.

It's not a statement of "these characters are broken/useless", it's a statement of "the way these characters are designed makes them literally impossible to every be in a truly balanced state" because they're either balanced around being played together, or balanced around being played apart.

Riot literally can't balance them for both scenarios without introducing a comparably strong bonus on each of them while they're apart, which would feel bad because they're intended to be played in concert.

That's my point: The fact that tuning just outright cannot fix the existing problem, ever, with the way the characters are designed.

I'm just pointing that out and asking how Riot intends to work around that fact, because these champion releases are setting a new precedent.

The only characters with anything close in the way of built-in kit synergy are Kalista and Yasuo, this is new territory, and I'm wondering what Riot plans to do with it.

KinsanoApr 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's entirely missing my point though:

I'm not pointing out that they're OP when paired or unplayable when not.

I'm pointing out that no matter how they're tuned, they're fundamentally linked, balance-wise, to each other. There's no way to tune synergy built into their kit, short of removing it.

It's not a statement of "these characters are broken/useless", it's a statement of "the way these characters are designed makes them literally impossible to every be in a truly balanced state" because they're either balanced around being played together, or balanced around being played apart.

Riot literally can't balance them for both scenarios without introducing a comparably strong bonus on each of them while they're apart, which would feel bad because they're intended to be played in concert.

That's my point: The fact that tuning just outright cannot fix the existing problem, ever, with the way the characters are designed.

I'm just pointing that out and asking how Riot intends to work around that fact, because these champion releases are setting a new precedent.

The only characters with anything close in the way of built-in kit synergy are Kalista and Yasuo, this is new territory, and I'm wondering what Riot plans to do with it.

I think that riot is counting on their kits not inherently being that good together. I saw a rioter commenting something along the lines of Rakan works better with Lucian or an aggressive all in adc than he does with Xayah, despite their built in synergies.

DrCyanideApr 4, 20172 votes

There's another option: buffs so trivial when together it doesn't matter, but that detracts from the reason to pick both.

Honestly, I think the recall will be the first thing broken about them in pro play. They'll push an inter tower, the support will channel most of the recall, then the ADC will take the instant ride to safety.

ShinjusukeApr 4, 20171 votes

That's actually a good point.

I was under the impression the recall timer was reset, but doesn't look like it is in the video.

Even more scary, what if damage ticking on the "joining" character doesn't interrupt the recall?

So Rakan starts channeling recall, Xayah shows up with ignite ticking on her, does she get pulled to base anyway and saved

DrCyanideApr 4, 20172 votes

There's a chance that Xayah could recall in between the ticks of damage if it lined up with the very end of the recall (which might actually be easier than it sounds, since damage at the very last possible moment can go through without interrupting recalls.)

My guess is if it's a problem they can add a "must channel at least 1.5 seconds together" aspect to it, which would still let them fly away faster but not let them avoid DoT. It'd be more in line with Tahm Kench's ultimate if that was the case too.

ShinjusukeApr 5, 20171 votes

That'd be interesting, and a pretty simple solution. I'm wondering how they'd account for that in the recall animation: Keep it on a loop of the two holding each other?

DrCyanideApr 5, 20171 votes

They've got an animation that plays when they join up, after that they'd cut that animation short (there's a lot of them just sitting there holding hands, which is probably already cut out for empowered recall).

ChargeItDownMidApr 4, 20172 votes

[deleted]

ShinjusukeApr 5, 20171 votes

A solid point, that's along the lines of what I was thinking as well, but I'm not sure that's something Riot's balance team has the ingenuity for (sadly).

Thanks for actually understanding and responding to the point of the thread, instead of just downvoting cuz "new champs are perf wtf man" or assuming it's a QQ thread lol

Umbral RegentApr 4, 20171 votes

I think Xayah and Rakan are going to be balanced (roughly) on release, with both of them being good on their own, but strongly compliment each other when together.

I mean, look at Rakan - he's most likely to be well-balanced out of the two, since he's a relatively lightweight Utility/Disruptor Support - he has some survivability thanks to his Passive and his Q heal, but his playstyle is likely going to orient around getting in and out ASAP to screw with his enemies - which, he'll have an easier time doing with the increased W Range on Xayah.

As for Xayah, she's more worth being worried about, but probably the only thing she'll need on release is small numbers changes here and there. She's got a moderately-high skill curve and skill ceiling, from what I've seen, and she compliments Rakan by making him more aggressive when she needs to tell enemies off - by giving him her W's increased attack speed and damage.

Call me optimistic, but I'm willing to bet they'll nail these releases.

ShinjusukeApr 4, 20171 votes

I'm sure they'll both be fun, I'm just talking about the outright impossibility of creating champions who "compliment each other" without them being balance problems.

Even if the change in each's power level is minor, it's still there. They can't avoid the fact that they've made characters who are stronger together and weaker alone, in terms of numeric power.