An Open Letter to Ricklessabandon (Karma catches up to you)

SilverSquid··7 votes·1,511 views
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This post takes a look on the changes to Karma in 5.10 and compares what they wanted to achieve and what they did achieve. If you disagree anywhere, please let me know, before you downvote!

Dear Rick,

About a year ago you came to work with one of my favourite champions in the league: Karma. While I didn't think she was in a bad spot, I welcomed your effort, as there were some quite unsatisfied Karma fans, that I imagined might enjoy a touchup, and I was excited that my favourite champion might become a little bit more refined or viable.

At first, I was sceptical of the changes I saw on the PBE, but I wanted to keep an open mind. In the end, sometimes things on paper look weird, but work very well ingame. That's why I accepted the changes, and played around with them in different metas, lanes and builds for half a year. Now, that I evaluated your changes thorougly, I want to comment on them, using the patchnotes of 5.10, to go through them step by step.

"DEFIANCE - No longer damages enemies,"

I am pretty sure, that one of Riot's design values is "respecting older champions". Karma's shieldbomb was one of the few things that were left over from her old identity. But even if there had never been an old Karma, why in the bloody axe of Darius would you want to remove the most iconic damage spell of a champion as a means to "improve" them? Would you also remove Ahri's charm to amp the damage in her abilities? Or remove Annie's Tibbers, so lategame she can stun with every 3rd ability?

"we just wanted to highlight more of Karma's unique strengths (utility and control)"

Utility and control? Those are NOT Karma's unique strenghts. Her unique strength was "offering utility and damage at the same time". A kind of duality, that you REMOVED from 2 spells. Utility and control can be found on literally any other mage, but they all have more CC and better zone control.

"much stronger utility potential in R-W / R-E"

First of all, you made the AoE scale off the base shield, which makes it effectively worse, if you don't level it. Secondly, the increased utility in her RW is either useless or annoying. Why? Because Karma can't even use the increased root well. If Morgana catches someone with her root.... great! Cast W below them and use your ulti if you wish, while your allies engage. If Lux catches someone with her root, she can cast an E on them and use her ulti if she wishes, while her allies engage. If Zyra.... you get the point. What does Karma get? Nothing. There is nothing in her kit that can take advantage of an increased root, after you've spent your Mantra. Besides, isn't Riot currently trying to get all long CC abilities out of the game? I thought CC of 3s and longer isn't good for the game, no matter how hard it is to apply?

"Karma does a number of things well (mid-range poke, movement-based team engagement, solo lane dueling), (...) we just wanted to highlight more of Karma's unique strengths (...) While these changes do reduce some of Karma's dueling threat"

How is that not contradicting itself?

"we're trying giving her access to an end game fantasy (there's a word we haven't heard in a while)"

I have literally never heard of a Karma before 5.10 whose lategame fantasy didn't include a shieldbomb. And does it fit a wise leader that seeks balance to speed around the battlefield spamming RQ? I just can't get this idea into my head.

"Quick note on removing the damage on Mantra'd W / E - a goal here was to differentiate Karma's contextual decision making when selecting an ability to Mantra (super root? mega shield?)"

I appreciate it, but it did not work out that way. Now everybody uses RQ 90% of the time. Which was something only noob Karma's did before your changes, because they didn't understand the intricate ups and downs of the different mantras. You used different mantras in lane, depending on your matchup, your current hp, minion placement, positioning, etc... RE could deal surprise damage from afar, but you just gave up all your mobility and defenses, while pushing the lane. Or you could try to sneak in a RW, to not push the lane, but if the enemy quickly disengaged, it wouldn't deal damage at all. Or RQ, which would deal the least damage, if only one part hit, but the most if you managed to pull off the whole thing. Placing your RE propperly in teamfights was a challenge, because you wanted to hit as many enemies AND allies at once, to get the most out of it. Hitting the the spell with 100% efficiency is so easy now it feels like another skillcheck was removed from her kit.

Yes, I know, "damage or CC or utility" sounds like better decision making than "(damage&utility) OR (damage&utility)", but it really isn't. Because having 3 options with slightly different utility and risk is more interesting to choose from, than having the decision cut out for you beforehand. It's true; If the options are too similar, it doesn't feel impactful to decide between them, I agree. But if they feel too different, it doesn't feel like choosing anymore, because it will always have a right decision.

"I can give you (20$ now), or (2$ every day for the next 2 weeks) or (40$ now, but you give me 30$ next year) ." This is a decision that most people will think about, and decide dependent on their current money needs, patience and personality. It feels like a choice to make. "I can give you 20 dollar now, or this plush teddy that smells nice or a diamond ring next week." This sounds like a better choice with more to choose from, but the decision is so much easier. Any reasonable person will go for the diamond ring, BECAUSE it is so obvious. As long as you don't have a crying kid next to you that needs comforting or need cash in THIS VERY moment, there is just no choice to make.

The same holds true for her current kit. RQ is so good, it will always be the best choice. Even in a teamfight it can be best to damage the complete enemy team and slow them by 50%. The other two options are so situational, they don't feel like equal choices anymore.

"Additionally, removing damage on R-E means we can up the ante on Gathering Fire's cooldown reduction without seeing Karma throw out a Mantra'd E every 6 seconds in clumpy team fights"

Would it really have been a problem if Karma had this one nieche of clumpy teamfights? And isn't that something that would have prevented her from falling off lategame, which is one of her main issues?




Don't get me wrong, Rick, I really value your effort and good intentions, that you put into this update. But you must understand, that this update didn't achieve, what you wanted it to. It was supposed to make Karma stronger as a support, but it gave her nothing to compete with other supports (her mega root mechanic doesn't work on a squishy mage), while making her solo-lane qualities worse. It was supposed to make Karma scale better into lategame, but she still falls off. It was supposed to make her passive better, but it only encourages hurting enemies and discourages mantra for massive utility (RE) for your team, contradicting her leader role. It hurt her thematically in that regard and even more so by removing her most iconic spell, which pissed Old Karma fans off even more. And finally, it was supposed to increase Karma's decision making, but it effectively removed any intricacy from it.

Watching Karmas use mantra doesn't allow you to distinguish between good and great Karmas anymore. There is no "wise" decision making left in her kit. There is no „this spell affects enemies and allies, so try to hit both for best effect“. It’s just hurting enemies and using RQ more often. This is mechanically mildly interesting, but thematically unfitting, boring and contrary to Riot's design values.

item 3070 Karma item 3070

See look, if I am missing something, please let me know. But as it stands this touch-up seemed like it failed as hard as it was well intended. And all I would hope for is just an explanation. Either why this really was intended and why it DOESNT contradict Riot's design values, or what you think really didn't work and what you want to do with Karma in the future. Please, there are a lot of ears in the community who crave for this answer!

Sincerely, SilverSquid

30 Comments

J E B A ł T E D3 votes

What the fuck is this shit

SilverSquid5 votes

If you phrase a propper question, I might be able to answer it.

J E B A ł T E D5 votes

{quoted}

If you phrase a propper question, I might be able to answer it.

What the fuck is this shit?

SilverSquid3 votes

Do you get reported a lot?

J E B A ł T E D2 votes

{quoted}

Do you get reported a lot?

No. Do you have bad teeth?

SilverSquid1 votes

Please contribute to the discussion

J E B A ł T E D1 votes

[deleted]

SilverSquid3 votes

I was trying to get you back to the topic of the thread. You keep being rude and distracting from the topic. My teeth and my place of birth have nothing to do with this. Your behaviour however is currently breaking rules.

IxtaliKing3 votes

I agree 100% with this, even though I was disappointed at the removal of the damage components of her other mantras I kept an open mind. People keep saying "Karma has never been in a better spot than she is now", gameplay wise yes, that's true. Thematically? Well if Karma's theme was the trinity of damage, CC and utility as opposed to the duality of utility and damage, it would have been a success also. What they don't consider is why exactly she is in a better spot than before 5.10:

  1. Her base root on W was increased to 1s (.75s for a spell like this was always ridiculous).
  2. Her W can now target jungle monsters.
  3. Her scaling W was buffed to .9, making her standard WRQ combo more potent, and is considered by people who don't know how to play against her as oppressive.
  4. The CD on her E was reduced.
  5. Her mana costs in general have been reduced.

All these particular changes with exception of the increased scaling on W, would have put her in a good spot; without the radical, theme-butchering changes she received in 5.10. So let's not be under the illusion that the reason Karma is performing better now is because of a 3.25s root at lvl 16 and a "mega shield". Providing utility with offensive potential was what was unique to Karma, that was her theme and is what was taken away from her. There are now champs in the game who translate Karma's theme into gameplay more than she does, without even trying (Lulu).

This is the reason we keep making Karma threads and will continue to make them, because no champ deserves to be treated in the way Karma has.

SilverSquid2 votes

{quoted}

  1. Her base root on W was increased to 1s (.75s for a spell like this was always ridiculous).

I am pretty sure her base root has always been 1-2s

There are now champs in the game who translate Karma's theme into gameplay more than she does, without even trying (Lulu).

That's so true it hurts :(

IxtaliKing3 votes

Yeah I double checked you're right it was, don't know why that was in my mind lol. All the other points stand though xD.

SilverSquid2 votes

No worries, bro, we've all been wrong before.

I don't know what's more frustrating tho, getting irgnored by Riot or having to deal with that mindhive that, instead of providing arguments, just mindlessly downvotes.... At least tell me why you think I'm wrong, damnit....

IxtaliKing3 votes

That's what I find so irritating, because there is actually reason to down vote this thread. It's not rude, it's not an attack and most importantly it's not wrong. People think the moment they see a Karma thread that we're complaining she isn't powerful enough or its just QQ about old Karma and rework. They don't get that we're mad because her theme has been scrapped and she's been left without an identity. They are the reason I blame the community for what happened to Karma more than Riot.

SilverSquid1 votes

Agreed.

Jesus, they are even downvoting the comments now. Guys, this is a forum, talk with us! Mindlessly downvoting everything doesn't stop me from posting and it doesn't show that you have a superior opinion or something. If you do have one; show it! I really would love to hear it.

IxtaliKing1 votes

Lol they're doing it on purpose. I hope all their mains trashed with reworks and ill-considered gameplay updates, maybe then they'll know how it feels.

-Karma

Fawksea1 votes

I agree with everything really, even tho I was fairly new when i played her a lot and all I thought was "are they grouped for an RQ or do i need to shield my teammates more" honestly when the update came out i was amazed cus not only did they remove the damage they made it so her shield was weaker unless you used RE. and it was only bigger for one person all she is now to me is an agressive lane bully who can't do much if not ahead

SilverSquid2 votes

To be fair, I can get behind the changes to E. They made it cheaper, lowered the cooldown but also the value. Having the speedbuff more often makes her more utility focused, so.... meh.

Her RE is better if you level E, but worse if you don't, at least on one target. Maxed it's basically the same for one target. The AoE shield got better by 20-55 (+10%), which is nice.... but nowhere makes up for losing 60-300 (+60%) AoE damage.

all she is now to me is an agressive lane bully who can't do much if not ahead

And interestingly enough, she can't do much if she is ahead either....

Fawksea2 votes

late game karma gives me the same feels as a zilean, which is having 45% cdr and enough mana/levels to spam your shit, you give people a ton of shields/speed buffs and do some good damage but in that sense i'd rather take zilean because he can spam those stuns and slow/speed up people like no tomorrow. plus y'know, revive. at least karma can bully out her lane opponents (unless its a blitz)

SilverSquid1 votes

Zilean has a better skill ceiling and his unique utility :-/. I switched to him and lulu after these changes....

Karma's bully potential really decreases on higher levels of play too. Or you successfully bully, can't translate it into a kill and just get ganked sigh

Calabok1 votes

Keep her at bottom. She has no need to be at mid

SilverSquid2 votes

You do realize, that she was designed to be a midlaner like Lux and Orianna, right? Besides, why can't champions be viable in multiple lanes? Is there a reason why she SHOULD not be viable mid?

HigeR1 votes

Ok, since you want an articulated discussion, I'll bite, I downvoted you for a couple reasons that I'll try to list:

1.- The victim tone of the whole thing is just annoying, just as the Sona threads, I think that you articulate your points very well but things like: "We feel beaten and ignored" are too over the top, because let's be honest, the "Karma community" is definitely not you and 3 people who agrees with you but millions of players worldwide so these generalizations only work against the purpose of this thread.

2.- Patch 5.10 happened almost a year ago, your complains are a liiiittle bit outdated... on Patch 6.2 her win rate for both support and mid soar around 48 - 49% meaning that she's almost perfectly balanced, but I get it, you are complaining about thematics and not balance.

3.- Isolated comparisons are never accurate, given Karma's powerload on Q and E alone, making her shield do damage will warrant a nerf somewhere else, remember she's almost perfectly balanced the way she is, tiping this balance will just screw the champion over, remember also that AoE damage is always (base+ratio) x 5, and because of this one of her other abilities must be nerfed to the ground OR the amount of damage on the shield would need to be so negligible that it's barely noticeable and honestly not worth keeping. It's all about balance here, if her theme steps on her balance, guess who's out the door?

I think it's more than obvious what Riot did for Karma, they separated spirit bomb and her shield for one sole reason: If you used your shield offensively you'd loose your shield, this is in fact a noob trap, because the best use case for the shield is ALWAYS doing damage with it and NOT protecting your team, furthermore, a skill that can potentially damage the whole enemy team and protect your whole team is pretty Overpowered, Imagine if Janna damaged everyone she knocked back away... by placing all this damage onto Q Karma is completely divided into 3 categories herself: Q - Offensive, W - Reactive, E - Defensive.

4.- My last point is just how you miss the only part that is not working for Karma in my opinion, and that's her passive, it states that Karma reduces the cooldown of her Mantra charge with her skills and autoattacks but guess what, there's one skill that doesn't proc this! yep, exactly, her shield! now the damage component would have a reason to be there but you miss this because you're too busy thinking of thematics and how "hurt" you are because of the removal of a mechanic.

SilverSquid3 votes

Thank you for taking the time.

"We feel beaten and ignored" are too over the top

Fair enough. I do think that the community is ignored, but it does distract from the main points too much. This shouldn't be an emotional argument. I removed this part. Any other?

Patch 5.10 happened almost a year ago, your complains are a liiiittle bit outdated

But are they invalid? I dislike jumping hypetrains and I misstrust my first impression to an extent, so I wanted to make sure. Besides I have been talking about these issues for a few months now, but in the EUW forum.

but I get it, you are complaining about thematics and not balance.

Yes, thank you!

remember also that AoE damage is always (base+ratio) x 5, and because of this one of her other abilities must be nerfed to the ground OR the amount of damage on the shield would need to be so negligible that it's barely noticeable and honestly not worth keeping.

I don't really get this part. I don't want to add something new or superspecial. Karma was balanced before 5.10, and I don't think the changes should have been made. I would have been more than happy if they just reversed this (alongside with the passive and W buff). And personally I would prefer an increased single target shield and AoE damage over the AoE shield, but that's just me.

a skill that can potentially damage the whole enemy team and protect your whole team is pretty Overpowered

So you think Karma was OP before 5.10?

by placing all this damage onto Q Karma is completely divided into 3 categories herself: Q - Offensive, W - Reactive, E - Defensive.

Yes, and I think this was a mistake. It destroyed the thematic aspect of her mantra, as it took out the duality. And as I explained, the decision making is just not given anymore.

My last point is just how you miss the only part that is not working for Karma in my opinion, and that's her passive

Just my last post was a rework suggestion of the passive because it doesn't work. The post before it highlighted how it fails thematically and discussed what can be done about it. No, I do not miss it, but I only commented on the changes in 5.10 and what didn't work there. This post is already really long so I scrapped the passive discussion in this one.

HigeR1 votes

Ok I won't cite the whole thing, but I'll try to answer as specifically as I can.

I think karma had too much damage before 5.10, not necessarily OP though, but she was overloaded with damage and gated in some other areas, mainly she didn't have access to as much mantras as she does today, which goes against her desired playstyle (As Riot has put it though), as Karma, you want to use mantras as much as possible but this can't happen if all you do is melt faces everytime you hit R+whatever.

This duality you talk about doesn't seem to be a goal for riot, they're more focused on making your basic skills amped when you use mantra but not changing the purpose of the skill, after all, a mantra is something you use to increase concentration and focus not something you use to change your intentions. Like, her Q is offensive, her RQ is MORE offensive, her W is reactive WR is MORE reactive and so on. I understand though that duality on a champion is a cool concept but it's not Karma's intended one apparently.

I obviously don't agree with all the changes though... like the removal of the extra damage on her W without amping her self heal, specially after the changes to her shield. This could be a good love tap for Karma herself but as it stands the only problem I see with the changes in 5.10 is in fact the problem on her passive that I talked about earlier.

SilverSquid2 votes

I think karma had too much damage before 5.10

You are the first person I see arguing that.

but this can't happen if all you do is melt faces everytime you hit R+whatever.

It's not facemelting. I did see her mantra as a damagespell in itself of around 60-300 (+0.6AP) that needed another ability to be applied. I mean, if other ultimates can have 90-100% AP scaling, this damage on an ability that is available more often and provides utility seems fair to me.

This duality you talk about doesn't seem to be a goal for riot

It was written all over her in her old design. A damage spell that could heal and a shield that could hurt. A spell that doubled as speed and slow. Even her dress was yin-yang. This is also a breaking point with the community; Riot seemingly did forget about it, while the community didn't.

a mantra is something you use to increase concentration and focus not something you use to change your intentions.

A mantra is a holy syllable, word or vers, that manifests spiritual energy. Thematically it made sense that Karma, who always was seeking a way in between, would unlock the duality effects of her spells by chanting her mantras. It's not about changing intentions. It was meant to show the wholeness of everything, by unifying good and bad, pain and protection....

The whole "give me more of the same" playstyle might be easier to balance, more intuitive for newbies, but it completely lacks depth and neglects Karma's original character. This is against the design philosophy Riot posted a few days ago. Even more so, it gives her less gameplay reasons to be picked, again something that Riot is working against.

It's not that I just dislike the changes, it's that they go against what Riot tries to achieve in every other aspect of their game.

HigeR1 votes

When I say too much damage I don't mean big numbers, but she had damage on all her 3 mantra'd skills, so for example you would chunk someone with RE and then Q W for quite some damage and given the fact that you were able to do this at lvl 3 it was a very powerful tool. What I'm trying to say is that she wouldn't delete you but if you add all of it it's a hefty amount of damage, that's why it was too much but not OP, it's something LoL could live with, what is not ok is having that same kit iteration plus a mantra every 10 seconds.

Now as far as her old design, yes, duality was there but as you and I know, she was reworked and this aspect of her was taken away, they didn't forget about it, they just took it out, why? well, if I knew the answer I'd be working for Riot right now xD but I don't so, yeah. All I can do is take it as it is and understand that Karma as a champion, works, maybe not for you but design wise, it's as you say, balanceable and intuitive.

I'll end up this post by saying that all you said in this answer holds up much better as a thread than what you started with, and I'm glad to have a sane discussion for a change in this forum!

SilverSquid2 votes

given the fact that you were able to do this at lvl 3 it was a very powerful tool.

Yes, I thought this was intended. Karma was a lane bully that fell off once the other champions gained their ultimates.

they just took it out, why? well, if I knew the answer I'd be working for Riot right now

This is what I am critizising so vividly; if they know, I wanna know too. If they don't know, they made a mistake. Either way, the communcation with the community is lacking (if this sounds self-centered again; I have checked their posts about Karma for the last few years on the boards, reddit, etc). The only thing we know for certain is, that Karma is in no position, that is "acceptable" to Riot .... for whatever that means.

All I can do is take it as it is and understand that Karma as a champion, works, maybe not for you but design wise, it's as you say, balanceable and intuitive.

As I said, there is really nothing unique in her kit that could be broken. And I do appreciate the balanced state, but as you already noted, I am complaining about the thematics and depth. There is just no point in playing a balanced champion, that is just no fun mastering, that has no nieche and no uniqueness about him/her. Maybe I wouldn't care so much if I hadn't felt it before...

I'll end up this post by saying that all you said in this answer holds up much better as a thread than what you started with, and I'm glad to have a sane discussion for a change in this forum!

I appreciate it and I want to thank you again for your time and honest review.

EDIT: I followed your reaction and tried to take some of the.... edgyness out of the post. Polish some corners, so to speak. I wanted it to be cynical and funny, to make the post more readable and entertaining... but maybe I just suck at being edgy. I will try to stick with my rational approach for the future. Let me know if it reads more easily now.

IxtaliKing1 votes

If Karma's shield bomb wasn't over powered before, why would it be now? I'm unaware of riot expressing such a view so I don't see why it would be a problem. It would be very powerful in some situations but isn't that a good thing? That would give her a reason to be picked. I mean I get your points completely, but it just sounds a lot like "as long as she's balanced, who cares about her theme". Karma barely has player base, and she has even less actual fans who care about her as character. But yeah, whatever, I'm kinda tired of trying to get riot to at least say something about her so I'm done.

HigeR1 votes

I mean, I pick Karma for other reasons though, like her long range poke, which Sona is very good at too but never from that distance. I also pick her as a Mid if there's not enough utility on the team, she works very well in this scenario and her skill floor is way lower than Orianna's so why not? plus she's very mobile with her shield and quite the duelist to be honest.

IxtaliKing1 votes

And then most people will tell you there's a much better pick for everything you've just said. Even rioters say they're not sure why you'd choose Karma over another champ. The point is she could be better than she is whilst still be being balanced and thematically cohesive.

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