the tank rework might be the worst

Big Lincoln·Jun 18, 2017·54 votes·3,272 views

even worse than the juggernaut update

not 1 champ is actually any more enjoyable to fight. Maokai after rework was only good for building damage because you centered him around the most out of place ability in his kit, now he's trash again because they scale like shit

zac spamming his root-pull Q is shit to play against, and for some reason he's still allowed to have high damage for a tank. at least for the awful gameplay sejuani brings now she just dumps one rotation of hard CC and then you're fine for 10 seconds (revert sej)

no idea how any of these were OK'd. just terrible

don't even get me started on the item changes lul

124 Comments

BlakiepugJun 18, 201719 votes

From one of Meddler's posts a while back, it sounded like they might stop doing class updates. If this is the case, then hallelujah! They just seem like they pointlessly change champions for no reason, make them less fun to play and irritate the mains who play that champion, and then are left and forgotten as Riot ignores all feedback regarding the reworks they forced onto the community.

OP Garen SupportJun 18, 201713 votes

gotta love how they dumpstered Malzahar when he was fine for years

SauceyapplesJun 19, 20178 votes

I thought people didn't like malzahar at the time before his update...

agbudarJun 19, 20175 votes

he had a pickrate of 1-5% (WHICH IS FINE) and a winrate of usually 50-55% (also fine since only people who mained him played him) depending on the season he was a niche pick against assasins in the midlane and he did great at that.

what did yas mains complain about the most? thats right point and click surpes.

SauceyapplesJun 19, 20174 votes

He still has point and click suppression...

Maybe I don't know the changes very well for malz, as i have only played him once on aram since his rework... But I still think he's pretty much in the same spot he was before... Like you said a niche pick to play against assassins.

...that's besides the point though. This is a post about tanks, not Malz.

Cosmic WarperJun 19, 20175 votes

{quoted}

From one of Meddler's posts a while back, it sounded like they might stop doing class updates. If this is the case, then hallelujah! They just seem like they pointlessly change champions for no reason, make them less fun to play and irritate the mains who play that champion, and then are left and forgotten as Riot ignores all feedback regarding the reworks they forced onto the community.

I like he concept behind class updates, but the execution has just been awful more often than not

AmetDeCryptJun 18, 201713 votes

well I like them.

nice tableJun 18, 201716 votes

guess you don't play em then

5000000000000000Jun 19, 20171 votes

Isn't this post about how unfun it is to fight against them?

LankPantsJun 19, 20179 votes

It's also just that they're far worse to play as since the rework, especially Sejuani. All of Sejuani's power is concentrated into her E and passive and it just feels garbage to play compared to old Sejuani.

I don't think it's particularly fun to play against either, so I fail to see how this rework could ever be considered a success by any metric.

nice tableJun 19, 20176 votes

it's about how shit the tank rework was, the tanks are unfun to play, most of em are complete trash and the ones that are over powered right now still feel like shit to play and play against.

AmetDeCryptJun 19, 20171 votes

I do. zac is very fun and I've done a maokai on occasion. never played sej outside of a few bot games but that's fun too.

nice tableJun 19, 20172 votes

playing anything for a game or two is fun cause its a new experience, thats not the point though.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 18, 201712 votes

i said the rework or maokai was shit from day 1

no one agreed with me

RainfallJun 18, 20174 votes

without sunfire cape champions like maokai and nautilus cannot exist in the toplane. riot tried to gut sunfire cape and give maokai a broken e to be able to push which turned the champion into a support.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 18, 20175 votes

i have made a few post on how with maokai's reworked KIT can be effective and work if they tweak a few things

1st off his ult moves to slow, it needs to have faster movement speed when casted 2nd the cd of his ult is too long needs to be lowered by 15seconds at each rank 3rd the stun duration on his W is shit... and even when maxed it only goes from 1sec to 1.4 seconds and 4th give him a slight boost in base ad and base attack speed early levels 1-3 even if you take away from later scaling

if this was done i think with out changing his damage ratio's or buffing any tank stats would make him more viable

RainfallJun 18, 20172 votes

a maokai buff would not solve anything,the problem is not 1 champion,with the tank rework all tanks feel weaker.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 18, 20178 votes

the tank dont feel weak... they removed any damage that they can do

cuz people cried that there was a tank meta and tanks were to strong that they shouldnt do any damage

NOW THEY DONT

and that retooling of his kit as i stated would bring him back

but since we are in meta of downvoting for stating opinions i guess i will now downvote you as you downvoted me

Pippen The ShortJun 18, 20172 votes

Sunfire cape damage reduction was good, it means you have to be a team player and makes you push the lane. My lane control as Nautilus has gotten way better with sunfire changes.

The damage on sunfire before was dumb, it had a huge output early on and for a tank with so much CC like Nautilus it was just unfair to everyone else. With only a sunfire and boots to counter your lane opponent you could just burn them alive and still have 50% health.

RainfallJun 18, 20175 votes

right now champions like nautilus are complete and utter garbage,without the sunfire cape damage literaly any champion with a healing/regeneration ability can stomp champions like nautilus,i have so much fun playing fiora top,after 15 minutes i let the enemy tank hit me for a couple of seconds before i kill him without him having a chance.

Pippen The ShortJun 18, 20171 votes

Yeah that's kind of the point of the rework. If Naut could 1v1 the "Grand Duelist" with only a sunfire and some boots then everyone would be off about how sunfire needs a huge nerf. It would be an issue.

However, in the current state Naut + a damage Jungle will easily kill a Fiora.

The rework successfully refined the play style of tanks. Tanks are supposed to be tanky and used for CC, wave pushing, and soaking damage. A tank should not be able to 1v1 a Fiora.

RainfallJun 18, 20175 votes

tanks right now are worthless i gave up playing any tank in the toplane because picking one is a burden to your team. all of their items are garbage right now. not only are you playing a champion that will require you to call help for a 1v2 top because the enemy fighter is stomping you. you are also playing a champion that has already starting falling off by the 15 minute mark. tanks should stay in the jungle and in the support roles like meddler intended with the tank rework. the problem was not that tanks dealt too much damage meddler just didnt want them played in the toplane.

Pippen The ShortJun 18, 20171 votes

Well, I think it's safe to assume that you don't play tanks very well.

Tanks are all about lane management and winning the lane off of ganks.

If you're falling behind at 15 minutes you really should reevaluate how you play tanks and how you build them. I have a lot of success at much higher elo's with tanks.

I think tanks just aren't your preferred play style.

RainfallJun 18, 20171 votes

tanks are mostly for beginers to the game because they are less punishing if you lose lane.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 19, 20173 votes

yet tanks are played in all elos and even in pro play

so explain your theory that they are for beginners with that considered?

GayFluffyUnicornJun 19, 20172 votes

much higher elo here. tanks are garbage not worth picking. Eycept the broken ones: galio, zac, sej.

Big LincolnJun 18, 20175 votes

at first I thought he might be the success if they just buffed his ult but I didnt expect his only purpose to spam E in bushes

feels bad

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 18, 20179 votes

and he can be fine if they do what i state with his ult and give him slightly early game buffs on his auto attacks and attack speed and give his W more duration on root.

what makes him bad is his stupid bad early game , in the past when his E had damage on impact even in bad lanes he could at least cs some now he cant even do that...

so to make up for it buff his early ad lvls 1-3 and attack speed , make his W worth putting more then 1 piont into

TusutakiJun 19, 201712 votes

Juggernaut update was actually fine for the most part. The tank update however is the complete opposite. Zac, Sej, and Maokai was fine the way they were. Couldn't they just replace Maokai's old passive with the new one since thats where the majority of his problem was? I still dont know why they made Sej into what she is now. What was her issue?

GelsominoKillerJun 19, 20174 votes

I agree.

I can see the reason behind Sejuani changes; the rework however is underwhelming to play. You're basically a stun bot, and you have to rely on your teammates for both damage AND said stun. Once her rotation is over Sejuani is COMPLETELY ignorable.

I like Zac new Q, but miss too much is old ultimate, and I can't enjoy the rework because of that.

Maokai probably is the worst offender, as he was stripped of his identity, niche and role. Like you said his passive change was the only "needed" change, anything else turned out to be raw butchering of a fine champion.

AhristocatsJun 19, 20174 votes

old sejuani was a pillar of no counterplay champion

she pressed Q+W+E slowed you for an insane amount and walked around dealing 1 to 1k5 aoe damage without any mechanic

i don't know what sejuani players are complaining about with new sejuani (actually know but the list is too long) but as someone who plays against her, new one is way healthier than old one

i just played against one yesterday and outplayed her with malphite while dodging W in an 1v1

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 19, 20172 votes

Zac, Sej, and Maokai was fine the way they were.

They weren't.

Couldn't they just replace Maokai's old passive with the new one since thats where the majority of his problem was?

I still dont know why they made Sej into what she is now. What was her issue?

What was her issue ?? u really ask ?

she was useless before lv6
once she used her ult she was same as invisible
except her ult she almost bringed nothing to the team.
there was no reason to pick her instead other vanguard.
Her ult was too strong (an insta aoe stun with almost no delay).

Meep ManJun 19, 20174 votes

I think the Juggernaut rework is the worst still by far.

Garen still doesn't have a solid niche in the game/a reason to be picked over someone else really
Mordekaiser AND Skarner both need full scale VGUs after their reworks
Darius is still considered one of the most annoying top lane champions to fight in the game, even if he was an overall success in making him a little less binary

Meanwhile, all of the Tanks are only really weak or too strong due to balance issues, not gameplay mechanics. None of them in my eyes need VGUs after their updates.

Big LincolnJun 19, 20175 votes

sej ruined post-rework regardless of her balance state

and there's no 'niche' to be had with any of them, all 3 are just cc bots plain and simple

ThewannabegamerJun 19, 20172 votes

The NaCl in your tears sustain rito. Juggernaut update was worse by far. These tanks are a bitch to kill, which they should be, but the juggernauts couldn't die healed through your pitiful damage and penta'd your team while scratching their ass.

Big LincolnJun 19, 20172 votes

they were op for 1 patch and then all were balanced or given heavy nerfs

Meep ManJun 19, 20171 votes

I don't see a reason for her to need a large scale rework after her current rework though as of yet, which is more than can be said for the Juggernauts 3 patches after their rework. Within two months, it was clear Mordekaiser and Skarner were royally screwed by the update.

Also, even if we are going by simple balance post-update, the Juggernaut update still far surpasses the Tank rework since it went beyond just the champions that were reworked's balance states. The Juggernaut items really messed with the game for a couple patches:

item 3053 used to be able to stack with item 3156 and could provide an AD user with a ridiculously high amount of protection from burst. item 3748 wasn't even hardly used by Juggernauts and was instead abused off the planet by on-hit effect users by allowing them to build some extremely durable off-tank builds. For a few patches, Master Yi was an actual problem. item 3742 for a little while was far overtuned.

and there's no 'niche' to be had with any of them, all 3 are just cc bots plain and simple

Define a CC bot though, because last time I checked, a Tank's main job was to apply CC to the enemy team and take hits. Furthermore, it's not like they all do it in a similar way. The difference in all of their ultimates and how they apply CC is very notable. While I can't comment on their balance state, as Maokai has been kind of screwed this time around and Zac kind of overtuned, the Juggernauts are still in a much worse state.

P.S. Maokai's niche is rooting the enemy team and vision, Zac's is long distance engagement, and Sejuani's is melee heavy hard engage. Sejuani probably has the most generic niche, but she can shape a game a lot different from the other tanks since her E has such a low cool down and can be stacked by melee allies. At most, Sejuani might need some minor touch-ups to further emphasize her niche.

Big LincolnJun 19, 20172 votes

the Juggernaut update still far surpasses the Tank rework since it went beyond just the champions that were reworked's balance states

so did the tank update, nerfs to health across the board have had echoing effects on bruisers, with a lot of them taking a dip in power that Riot now has to take their time compensating individually, unless they happened to benefit massively from the AD changes

Furthermore, it's not like they all do it in a similar way.

the end result is the same, so who cares? Sejuani ~~can~~ could engage from a distance, too, Sion and Malphite do it as well. How you do 'X' thing slightly differently should not be considered a niche; a niche is having strengths that others, or at least very few others, have. And this, funny enough, is one of the things that the Juggernauts do better than any other subgroup.

As stupid as I think Poppy is she's a good example of an actually niche tank because of her W, E and R serving as a reliable hard-stop to dashes. She functions excellently as an anti-mobility tank, even if I think she's still too good against immobile targets. Other tanks can interrupt mobility with their own displacements, but most of them can miss where Poppy can't, and they don't usually have 3 opportunities to stop a Lee Sin flanking.

Ignoring her now terrible animations and mediocre balance state, Sejuani's rework is especially shit because her 'niche' isn't in her control. You have to beg soloQ teams to pick melee champions so that you can actually be a stun bot and not just a chogath-tier meat shield when it's time to fight 5v5. And that's all she has now; stunning people. Previously she was far closer to a very tanky diver, or at least a hybrid, because she followed a similar pattern as Hecarim but with spammy slows attached; ult onto the enemy team and then beat down the closest carry, basically a semi-carry herself. Old Sejuani had far more skill expression in decision making; because of her nature as an AoE-heavy tank with high DPS she had to choose between running one person down or spreading her E stacks to as many people as possible to slow all of them and set her team up, as well as deciding when to ult. New Sejuani has lost this; you'll press E as soon as it's available, because there's one outcome; one person will be stunned. R is the same way; now with piss-poor initiation, R is only used as a combo reset to double her stun time. The only thing I actually like about the rework is that she can kill Scuttle in 3 seconds instead of having to chase it around the river for 10.

EschetonJun 18, 20173 votes

shut up and let me enjoy my Sion support with all his new tank support items. :p ~~you're right tho~~

Big LincolnJun 18, 201715 votes

support item update is a separate thing, and it was much better than tank changes

HeresyHorusJun 19, 20173 votes

ADC Update was the only REAL update.

RainfallJun 18, 20171 votes

Riot was like:lets rework 3 tanks into monsters and just gut every single tank item.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJun 18, 20175 votes

what 3 tanks were monsters?

cuz maokai got shafted in the rework

RainfallJun 18, 20171 votes

zac has kept a good winrate/playrate. seju rammus (not a part of the tank rework)(was reworked later)

SanKakUJun 18, 20171 votes

[deleted]

SoryInAdvanceJun 18, 20177 votes

Did you just say Rammus isn't a tank? Are we playing the same game here?

RengoooJun 19, 20171 votes

Bold claim, even for you Lincoln :/

Big LincolnJun 19, 20173 votes

i have strong personal bias, obviously

Sejuani 's rework is the angriest i've ever been about this game

RengoooJun 19, 20171 votes

Welcome to my world since the assassin update..

On Sej though, I personally really like her new W, just her E I find absurdly clunk, which seems to be a big part if her kit now which is unfortunate.