Conqueror is a result of the same kind of oversight in design logic that created 4.20 Weedwick.

TotalJerk··44 votes·13,722 views

For those of you who don't know: 4.20 was the patch that introduced red smite. That iteration of smite did a FLAT AMOUNT OF TRUE DAMAGE ON-HIT when smiting someone. Obviously this was abused the hardest by champions that could apply on-hit effects rapidly, while being relatively shitty on champions with slow auto attacks. How do you balance such a mechanic on every jungler that wants to use red smite to duel? You fucking don't. Old Warwick's ult was a point-and-click version if his current ult that applied on-hit effects SIX TIMES. Meaning every time he smited someone it basically bundled his ult with a free rapid ignite. The damage of the item was not only nerfed as a result, it was changed to be a DoT that refreshes with each auto instead of giving flat damage per auto. This somewhat normalized the strength of red smite across champions, making it significantly easier to balance.

To relate this to conqueror: It stacks from every individual hit, spell or AA. It is incredibly obvious that such a system is going to be abused the hardest by the champions that can cram the most instances of damage into a small window to instantly stack it while being shitty on champions that have damage that isn't so spread out among rapid individual hits. You can even look at top lane stats and see that a lot of the current best bruisers are the ones that can stack it stupidly fast, while the shittier bruisers are some of the worst stackers.

This is a rune that cannot be balanced for everyone, you either have to:

  • nerf it down until it becomes "The Riven/Aatrox/Jax rune" because it's balanced only on them and shitty on everyone else
  • nerf the champions that synergize around the rune to the point where they can't use anything else effectively, killing a layer of strategic diversity for them
  • keep it in a state where it absolutely disgusting on the champions that abuse it the hardest so it can be decent on others

The way it stacks needs to be changed, not the numbers.

25 Comments

Rhai13 votes

Wouldn't removing the runes and balancing around the champions be better instead? The runes doesn't seem to have cause anything but trouble.

Weiss Guertena3 votes

That's what we had, but if there's something Riot's balance team is best at then its attempting to fix stuff that isn't broken until they break them and then leave actually broken stuff lying around because they can't admit mistakes unless it's a beyond gamebreaking fuck-up like 5.0 AS Koggles.

U R Good At Game7 votes

Here's the issue, "Bruiser" has some of the most champions in the game under it's guise because that term actually includes around 3 entire classes of champions in league of legends. You will never be able to introduce a "bruiser" anything w/o having some champions of the 3 bruiser classes abuse it. If they make a diver rune/item it usually means juggernauts are gonna abuse it and run you down, if they make a juggernaut rune/item it usually means skirmishers will abuse the defense/sustain, if they make a skirmisher rune/item it usually means divers abuse it turn into burst AND dps champions, etc, etc.

Kazekiba3 votes

Conqueror exists because people cried about Fervor of Battle not being in RR. Fervor was reworked more than Ryze and ultimately left out of Runes for exactly this reason but Riot brought it back under the guise of "muh bruiser keystone" and surprise surprise. Its fundamentally unbalanced. Woah almost like "free stats for doing what you're supposed to do" is stupid.

Ragnaveil9 votes

I'm willing to lose the rune, its just what do you replace it with.

Tremaursen26 votes

{quoted}

I'm willing to lose the rune, its just what do you replace it with.

Nothing. The precision tree doesn't need anymore help. Remove Conq and focus on the absolute disaster that is the Resolve tree

5StackUltOneShot9 votes

{quoted}

Nothing. The precision tree doesn't need anymore help. Remove Conq and focus on the absolute disaster that is the Resolve tree

Yah but bruisers still dont have a fucking keystone. If they are willing to gear Grasp towards bruisers and change aftershock purely for tanks then thats fine, but I doubt tank mains want to take aftershock only every single game.

G Master Hung5 votes

There was a point where conq didn't exist if you remember. But bruisers had no good keystone that properly fit them. So it needs to be removed yes, but it also needs to be replaced by something else to give bruisers some type of viable keystone.

IainG102 votes

Alter PTA for them

SuperTopLFBottom1 votes

{quoted}

Nothing. The precision tree doesn't need anymore help. Remove Conq and focus on the absolute disaster that is the Resolve tree

Fine. Then buff every single melee toplaner into a state where they beat all ranged and tank champions. I'd take that.

Śhunpo1 votes

{quoted}

Nothing. The precision tree doesn't need anymore help. Remove Conq and focus on the absolute disaster that is the Resolve tree

Focus on the Resolve tree, and start by removing Aftershock :)

PhDs Nuts5 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror exists because people cried about Fervor of Battle not being in RR. Fervor was reworked more than Ryze and ultimately left out of Runes for exactly this reason but Riot brought it back under the guise of "muh bruiser keystone" and surprise surprise. Its fundamentally unbalanced. Woah almost like "free stats for doing what you're supposed to do" is stupid.

"Free x for doing what you're supposed to do" is literally every keystone, and why I fundamentally oppose even having them at all.

Sire Hippington3 votes

It should simply stack with time spend in combat, similar to grasp or old conqueror. And it should only use combat with champions, because that's where grasp, (old)conqueror and rageblade fail, whats the point in delaying a powerfull effect for balance if you can just bypass the delay as soon as minons come around?

Though i'd prefer removeing the masteries sytem entierly at this point, it caused nothing but balance issues since S6 and contributes quite a bit to the powercreep.

Lovelle1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mpEEUUwG,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-05-08T11:36:06.519+0000)

It should simply stack with time spend in combat, similar to grasp or old conqueror. And it should only use combat with champions, because that's where grasp, (old)conqueror and rageblade fail, whats the point in delaying a powerfull effect for balance if you can just bypass the delay as soon as minons come around?

Though i'd prefer removeing the masteries sytem entierly at this point, it caused nothing but balance issues since S6 and contributes quite a bit to the powercreep.

I think the masteries overall were fine. It's the keystones that have basically warped the game, along with all the changes they've made to itemization over the years.

Flavi Kang2 votes

The answer is simple : Fervor. Bring it back and tune it. I don't understand what is so hard for these thick skulled people

Cdore2 votes

I'm just tired of having to fight the rune more than the champion. It seems today, matchups are more about what rune is taken rather than what champ you take. Conq bruiser is a different ballgame compared to say a PTA or Lethal Tempo bruiser. The least threatening bruiser would be someone who takes comet or something not synergizing. It's annoying.

TotalJerk1 votes

I was thinking the same kinda thing when Lethality items were running rampant. You don't really fight AD Assassins anymore, you fight Duskblade/Ghostblade/Edge of Night. Champions have rapidly just become a vehicle for their item and runes.

Tax Demon2 votes

Runes are a wonderful addition to the game. They promote diversity, creativity, and fun.

Please don’t talk about removing them, especially if you have no suggestion to replace them with a similar system that provides the above benefits.

SerenguetiPizza1 votes

Wrong, runes are not an overall nice complement to the champs.

This is one chef coming into the menu of another chef and adding sauce to perfectly seasoned proteins. Most will be fucked up and non elegant. Some morons will prefer the extra ketchup but that means nothing. Like letting plebs do their own accounting. Seems simple, but it's stupid.

SerenguetiPizza1 votes

More even, benefits that are given without proper consequences or accountability are beyond useless, and a pandemic virus to this weird digital generation. Imagine if in football or in billiards you had keystones or pre favorable caps in certain situations. Man up, raw skill vs skill.

Tax Demon1 votes

You think the champions are okay on their own then?

Sure, let's remove items while we're at it, as champions are okay on their own.

Runes are pretty similar to items dont you think? Or is there a reason you want to distinguish items from runes, even though they serve identical functions?

Additionally, let's talk about your menu and chef nonsense. You're assuming that one chef's menu is already perfect, which is 100% wrong. Always. It doesn't hurt to have more than one chef in the kitchen.

FSRER1 votes

My only problem with the champions that abuse conqueror is Nasus. I can face, Jax, Irelia, Riven, Kayn using it but I cant stand that cancerous champ, who if you dont play only 5 champs to him he will insta 0 you.

AINT NO SHEEP1 votes

Poor weedwick being more like warweak these days =(

H00KIE1 votes

Remove runes entirely. Ingame items in the shop that you buy during matches are all that should be affecting a champion. No other MOBA has this weird system of creating a build for the character outside of the match, no idea why this games devs thought this was ever necessary. Remove it entirely.

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