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News Flash: Lee Sin's safety is what his kit revolves around

Jefftiffy··8 votes·770 views

Because the second he hits late game he falls off almost as hard as pantheon unless he gets a really good ult which for the most part requires a 300s cd or a really out of position enemy.

Take away his safety and he sure as hell isn't going to kill you. His entire kit is pretty much go in if you take it away and if he has no way to get out its like playing a worse Diana and no one would ever touch him.

I know this is an unpopular opinion. But the truth hurts. Lee may be versatile and safe, but his strengths are minimal outside of really good ults and safety. His damage isn't that high anymore (the only time he hurts is if he catches you with already a chunk missing or is super far ahead). The key to killing Lee is having someone sit and peel him off of the back line or prevent him from getting there. You do that he literally can not do anything.

Why would you ever pick Lee if he couldn't get out. There's Diana Pantheon Tryndamere Kled Warwick who can all just go balls deep and not run away and put out higher damage.

I know I am going to get down voted for this even though I don't play Lee all that much anymore.

Seriously Lee has been hit a lot people. He is a long way from the god tier he used to be. You complain now, but he really isn't that bad and unless you have played against him when he was at his height you have no right to complain about the gimped state he is in now compared to the past.

16 Comments

TheJakeinator2 votes

Hands down the dumbest post I have seen on Boards this months.

May the community have Mercy on you

Jefftiffy2 votes

{quoted}

Hands down the dumbest post I have seen on Boards this months.

May the community have Mercy on you

Idk maybe once you realize how the game actually plays then you can understand that the boards is about 90% people who are plat and lower. And so many people on here post on alts to hide their rank that I take half of what this boards has to say about game balance with a grain of salt. The fact that you have to hide your main account usually is a bad thing unless you are really high profile and trying to stay low (very few players can actually say that)

Seriously not trying to be mean here, but for the most part experience dictates your understanding of the game. Skill is pretty much irrelevant as solo queue is pretty much luck based and so many players don't even do ranked.

I have a pretty good understanding of the game balance. And unlike half the people on the boards here I want the game to balanced. I don't care how frustrating it is to play against a champ. That isn't a balance factor, that is quality of life. I also don't care how much people hate them as that just leads to bias. The point is to analyze their kit and see where problems could inherently lie and if their kit overall is too strong.

In the case of Lee it was how often and how much damage he could put out that was really big on him back about 2-3 seasons ago. Since then his sustain has been nerfed, his cds on aggressive plays have been nerfed, his damage has been nerfed, and his excess utility has been removed (true sight on E and AS slow on E second activation). The only buff he has had was an increased damage if he kicks a hp tank into an enemy meaning punishing a poor engagement and poor positioning but otherwise pretty minor.

Lee suffers once he can no longer safely jump in with his low defensive stats and get to the back line in a reasonable time. Sure he can dive and get CC'd and live, but that leaves him at a huge disadvantage as that bought the enemy time to reposition or just flat out kill him. In the late game he isn't going to jump on a full hp carry and 1 shot them if they are positioned correctly, that's why he relies on his ult flash combo at that stage, to make up for his inability to kill them he moves them into a more favorable position for his team at the expense of a 300s cd. And when his ult is on that 30s CD late game his team is very vulnerable to engages and for the most part down a person as he is basically just a body blocker at that point. The second his flash is gone he is a liability to his team against engages and is forced to play super defensive.

TheJakeinator1 votes

First of all, I would post on my main account if I could but Riot will not let me because of its name.

My main's name is Fucking Shit.

That aside, everything you mentioned was revolved around team fighting and late game. Nobody gives a shit about that when talking about lee. Everyone cares about his oppressive as fuck early game and his absolutely insanely strong mid game. He has no weaknesses early. He farms better then most champs, he ganks better then most champs, he invades better then most champs. He can one shot carries up to 20-25 min. He has amazing tower dives. Everybody knows he isnt a great team fighter and or late game champ. It doesnt matter because he is so strong early that his team is so far ahead that it doesnt matter if he falls off. He still builds tank and can make amazing picks, peel, and do pretty decent damage while doing both.

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

The ironic thing is that he is so mobile and safe despite being a blind guy.

Just pointing that out.

midnight oil241 votes

https://img.ifcdn.com/images/534072aae1ba10e816a049e035dc33f049f8d8fcc8b975208a4109edc8075d4b_1.jpg

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

That would be quite the plot twist.

LadyRenly1 votes

a completely safe champion revolving around lcs big plays? Sounds like he can enjoy the best of both worlds while having to sacrifice nothing.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Because the second he hits late game he falls off almost as hard as pantheon unless he gets a really good ult which for the most part requires a 300s cd or a really out of position enemy.

Or it requires a Q+W+R, which means it requires SKILL. Which is something Lee should have.

Take away his safety and he sure as hell isn't going to kill you. His entire kit is pretty much go in if you take it away and if he has no way to get out its like playing a worse Diana and no one would ever touch him. Wtf yes he will. If he can kill you now taking away his safety won't change that.

He's a far better Diana because he does as much damage, but doesn't rely on hitting a skillshot to get into range, and also doesn't need to lose a huge chunk of his damage if he misses that skillshot. He doesn't need to worry about mana, he has better sustain and a better clear, he gets execute damage + really high base damage, and hard CC that's actually effective.

I know this is an unpopular opinion. But the truth hurts. Lee may be versatile and safe, but his strengths are minimal outside of really good ults and safety. His damage isn't that high anymore (the only time he hurts is if he catches you with already a chunk missing or is super far ahead). The key to killing Lee is having someone sit and peel him off of the back line or prevent him from getting there. You do that he literally can not do anything.

I mean, R+Q+Q+auto+E+auto with Warrior almost kills any squishy.

Why would you ever pick Lee if he couldn't get out. There's Diana Pantheon Tryndamere Kled Warwick who can all just go balls deep and not run away and put out higher damage.

Because they actually don't do more damage than Lee...

I know I am going to get down voted for this even though I don't play Lee all that much anymore.

Seriously Lee has been hit a lot people. He is a long way from the god tier he used to be. You complain now, but he really isn't that bad and unless you have played against him when he was at his height you have no right to complain about the gimped state he is in now compared to the past.

So... if someone was super broken, and is now only moderately broken, we can't complain? I thought they were supposed to be, yunno, balanced...

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mnZpKwrV,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-04-20T21:56:09.099+0000)

Or it requires a Q+W+R, which means it requires SKILL. Which is something Lee should have. Wtf yes he will. If he can kill you now taking away his safety won't change that.

He's a far better Diana because he does as much damage, but doesn't rely on hitting a skillshot to get into range, and also doesn't need to lose a huge chunk of his damage if he misses that skillshot. He doesn't need to worry about mana, he has better sustain and a better clear, he gets execute damage + really high base damage, and hard CC that's actually effective.

I mean, R+Q+Q+auto+E+auto with Warrior almost kills any squishy.

Because they actually don't do more damage than Lee...

So... if someone was super broken, and is now only moderately broken, we can't complain? I thought they were supposed to be, yunno, balanced...

I want to see Lee do this late game. Because currently he can't and that's what you are saying he does. And he does rely on a skill shot to get in range and if you didn't have vision on him and he insec'd you its kind of your fault. And the point of mana is to give more powerful kits a limiter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzI9OVI8nWM

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

I want to see Lee do this late game. Because currently he can't and that's what you are saying he does.

But wasn't the whole point of Lee to go triple longsword and burst down the enemy Nidalee before they can do shit at lvl 6?

Sorry, I remember some LCS caster saying that.

And he does rely on a skill shot to get in range and if you didn't have vision on him and he insec'd you its kind of your fault. Ward hop?

And the point of mana is to give more powerful kits a limiter.

But... Lee doesn't have mana... so that's probably not true...

Shonjl1 votes

The reason people hate lee is because he is TOO mobile. Yes his damage does fall off late game and he becomes an ult bot, but the fact early game his damage is retarded on top of the fact he can't really screw up due to so many ways to escape.

Ohh I made a bad play, let's dash out, ohh my dash is down? I will Q away, whats that? My Q is down too? I will R the enemy away. That is on CD? I will just dash again due to low CD and my Q will be up again as well by then.

Zed LB and Riven are some of the most mobile champs in the game and even they don't come close to what he does. Zed once his W is down just has his flash, LB is basically the same. Riven has 4 mini dashes on low CD but they are tiny dashes.

And this isn't even considering he has one of if not the highest base ms in the game. Doesn't help he has one of the highest consistant playrates in the game, and still has a 50% winrate, normally 50% winrate is balanced, but when someones playrate is 20-40% thats very bad.

Its dumb how hard it is to put a Lee down is the issue with him. He really doesn't have a weakness short of him making a mistake and even then he usually has 3-5 ways to escape or fix the problem. At least champs like Hecarim or Rammus, two really fast and hard to avoid their ganks once their speed boost are down don't really have much else to escape or catch you with.

Truthfully Riot is slowly getting rid of ward hopping, he should lose his as well, that will limit his mobility but not massively destroy it.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

The reason people hate lee is because he is TOO mobile. Yes his damage does fall off late game and he becomes an ult bot, but the fact early game his damage is retarded on top of the fact he can't really screw up due to so many ways to escape.

Ohh I made a bad play, let's dash out, ohh my dash is down? I will Q away, whats that? My Q is down too? I will R the enemy away. That is on CD? I will just dash again due to low CD and my Q will be up again as well by then.

Zed LB and Riven are some of the most mobile champs in the game and even they don't come close to what he does. Zed once his W is down just has his flash, LB is basically the same. Riven has 4 mini dashes on low CD but they are tiny dashes.

And this isn't even considering he has one of if not the highest base ms in the game. Doesn't help he has one of the highest consistant playrates in the game, and still has a 50% winrate, normally 50% winrate is balanced, but when someones playrate is 20-40% thats very bad.

Its dumb how hard it is to put a Lee down is the issue with him. He really doesn't have a weakness short of him making a mistake and even then he usually has 3-5 ways to escape or fix the problem. At least champs like Hecarim or Rammus, two really fast and hard to avoid their ganks once their speed boost are down don't really have much else to escape or catch you with.

Truthfully Riot is slowly getting rid of ward hopping, he should lose his as well, that will limit his mobility but not massively destroy it.

Uh you know how little he would be picked without ward hopping right. It literally is the only reason he is played. So he can use them to get into good spots. Without it he literally can't do anything. It would be like watching old WW run to lane every time he ganked and it would be really sad. They even punish him for ward hopping. He doesn't gain the shield and it goes on a longer CD. What more do you want?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Uh you know how little he would be picked without ward hopping right. It literally is the only reason he is played. So he can use them to get into good spots. Without it he literally can't do anything. It would be like watching old WW run to lane every time he ganked and it would be really sad. They even punish him for ward hopping. He doesn't gain the shield and it goes on a longer CD. What more do you want?

Well he could flash, he could flank (like any other assassin/bruiser), he could peel, he could assassinate (not as well but meh), and he could duel. And he can still gank - he has a long range gapcloser, high damage, and a slow.

Ward hopping is pretty necessary for his teamfight combo's, but honestly that's not even what we have a problem with. I dunno... people just don't like the extra safety + gapcloser it gives, when it's supposed to be used to insec.

Shonjl1 votes

{quoted}

Uh you know how little he would be picked without ward hopping right. It literally is the only reason he is played. So he can use them to get into good spots. Without it he literally can't do anything. It would be like watching old WW run to lane every time he ganked and it would be really sad. They even punish him for ward hopping. He doesn't gain the shield and it goes on a longer CD. What more do you want?

He can afford to lose some stuff though is the thing. Since technically he does everything since his kit is overloaded. Massive mobility, sustain, high base damages with execute damage, shields, hard cc, tanky. One of the fastest clears, does some of the best counter jungling, the best dragon/baron stealer. He does literally everything as a champion because he has everything, and is if you looked up the definition of a jng, Lee sin would be the perfect example. You don't even need to be good at Lee to do well since Q auto Q with thunderlords which he normally uses is insanely powerful early on and Q R Q or R QQ will outright kill or severely cripple anyone that isn't a big tank. And the skill part of Lee isn't even that really skill based. Its not hard to flash R someone, or 1/4 dash R. Hecarim basically does the same thing, R behind the enemy and E them back towards your team, and people don't call him a pro skill champ, and he does 100% the same thing.

It kinda goes on what Riot said about Maokai, they called him a generalist champ that fit well everywhere and Riot hates that and is changing him for it. Lee honestly should be the one with that title since he can fit with every team comp as well as do anything.

I am sure anyone that isn't biased would know how dumb it is he should even exist, or remain like he is. The issue is everyone is split into 3 groups. The ones that play him and will defend him til their dying breath regardless of if its deserved or not. The ones that complain on boards nonstop and fight with the ones that defend him. And the ones like myself that dislike that he can do everything but just accepted that nothing will change since Riot has made it clear they will never truly change him so no point.

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

He can afford to lose some stuff though is the thing. Since technically he does everything since his kit is overloaded. Massive mobility, sustain, high base damages with execute damage, shields, hard cc, tanky. One of the fastest clears, does some of the best counter jungling, the best dragon/baron stealer. He does literally everything as a champion because he has everything, and is if you looked up the definition of a jng, Lee sin would be the perfect example. You don't even need to be good at Lee to do well since Q auto Q with thunderlords which he normally uses is insanely powerful early on and Q R Q or R QQ will outright kill or severely cripple anyone that isn't a big tank. And the skill part of Lee isn't even that really skill based. Its not hard to flash R someone, or 1/4 dash R. Hecarim basically does the same thing, R behind the enemy and E them back towards your team, and people don't call him a pro skill champ, and he does 100% the same thing.

It kinda goes on what Riot said about Maokai, they called him a generalist champ that fit well everywhere and Riot hates that and is changing him for it. Lee honestly should be the one with that title since he can fit with every team comp as well as do anything.

I am sure anyone that isn't biased would know how dumb it is he should even exist, or remain like he is. The issue is everyone is split into 3 groups. The ones that play him and will defend him til their dying breath regardless of if its deserved or not. The ones that complain on boards nonstop and fight with the ones that defend him. And the ones like myself that dislike that he can do everything but just accepted that nothing will change since Riot has made it clear they will never truly change him so no point.

The thing is he punishes low elos plays and poor positioning. One of which is almost present in the majority of games. Poor positioning is often a huge problem in solo queue because of lack of coordination leaving people in spots they shouldn't be in. Low elo is the majority of the game and quite honestly should not be balanced around. Play is balanced around high elo for a reason. Balancing it around low elo and LCS is poor decision making and leads to either the good players feeling not rewarded for climbing or leaving the majority of the player base feel left alone.

The ironic thing is people complain when they balanced around LCS, but then they point at Lee in the LCS and say why isn't he nerfed yet when he sees play by top level players and they still get about a 50% win rate with him even in LCS. Have you ever seen a pro player complain about Lee? No. Have you seen them go damn he's a problem for the game? No.

Shonjl1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is he punishes low elos plays and poor positioning. One of which is almost present in the majority of games. Poor positioning is often a huge problem in solo queue because of lack of coordination leaving people in spots they shouldn't be in. Low elo is the majority of the game and quite honestly should not be balanced around. Play is balanced around high elo for a reason. Balancing it around low elo and LCS is poor decision making and leads to either the good players feeling not rewarded for climbing or leaving the majority of the player base feel left alone.

The ironic thing is people complain when they balanced around LCS, but then they point at Lee in the LCS and say why isn't he nerfed yet when he sees play by top level players and they still get about a 50% win rate with him even in LCS. Have you ever seen a pro player complain about Lee? No. Have you seen them go damn he's a problem for the game? No.

That is interesting you say he is a low elo punisher like say Yi when he is even more powerful in higher elos. There is a reason why MAster Yi doesn't even exist in high elo but Lee does, and quite a bit.

Positioning doesn't mean too much against Lee since if he wants to get to you, he most of the time can, its just a matter of if he thinks it is worth it. And he has a lot of ways of doing his job with little downsides. If for some reason he can't get to you, he will just kick someone into you, then get to you while everything is chaos.

LCS don't complain since their lives revolve around whatever is most broken at the time, of course they won't complain so they aren't really people you want as examples. The examples would be the Plat>Master players that aren't LCS players but are the top players. And a fairly decent chunk either play him, or know he is overloaded but nothing will change, hell some probably even used him to climb.

The boards are whining yes, and while yes the boards aren't everyone that plays league, not even close, but usually when a lot of people are in a similar mindset, it isn't entirely false. Lee is x, Lee is y, Lee is z, Lee is OP, Lee this, Lee that, while the reasons said are usually QQ, the fact so many people dislike or complain about him should raise a question of something is possibly wrong with him? If you owned a resturant and one dish constantly has complaints about it but the complaints are always different, your thoughts wouldn't be so much what the people are saying as it would be something is wrong in general.

I mean, I can defend Lee as well since there is good sides to him as well, he is extremely fun to play, you always feel like you are useful, he is damn good at his job which feels amazing, and at least for me, generally Lee will take all the kills on the enemy team and cause his team to lose since the moment we focus and kill him, the rest of his team melts. I won't act like there isn't good about Lee, hell I actually want to pick him up as a go to champ, but I also know he is pretty stupid strong at basically all times, the only times he isn't OP is basically when there is OP crap going on at the time, Cinderhulk release, Sated Devourer champs, why play him when those champs were way stronger til nerfs happened?

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