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Jhin Lane Bully AND Late Game Hypercarry?

RcGjWO640w··22 votes·11,205 views

I've still yet to understand Jhin as a champion concept. I hesitate to think that would design such a poor champion concept that can transition from an early game lane bully to a late game hypercarry the way he does, but matches don't lie. When on our team or the enemies, any Jhin seems to just absolutely crush their lane embarrassingly bad and them transition into the mid and late game as unstoppable hypercarries. They might have only picked up 1 kill in the laning phase, but it feels like he doesn't need anything to go off. Like Kled, he's going full I-will-100-to-0-you-with-1-salvo-and-2-abilities ham right from level 2.

He's the Zed of ADC's right now and games honestly feel like, "pick Jhin, ban Jhin or if you're picking adc before the opponents, pick something that won't get crushed quite as hard by a Jhin, just in case they pick Jhin."

Riot seems to like to balance champions by 3 steps:

  1. design champion and launch him with clearly OP scalings and base damages so people will buy the new OP champion.
  2. Nerf them into the ground to reel in his audience so they don't destroy the game too much.
  3. Give them some QoL buffs to ensure that a bit of their power comes back and they remain competitive.
  4. ?????
  5. PROFIT!!

Except with Jhin, Riot started the design launch and just forgot about steps 2 and 3. He still feels new-champ OP even though Riot says he's in check. What's up with that?

67 Comments

Requiemsfire21 votes

Jhin is pretty strong, but he is no hypercarry. He can't duel very well and is extremely weak to CC. His low fire rate makes him vulnerable and strengthens his position as a backline carry that snipes from the backline. He also has plenty of counterplay against his kit in general. Jhin is weak in all in's, he has no DPS when reloading, his 4th shot is the one you should be worried about he has no longer range poke abilities and is immobile/squishy.

Any other ADC late game in a duel demolishes Jhin with sheer firepower and has the worse time dealing with assassins.

Shrek Luigi2 votes

He can make trades/duel pretty well against other marksman with similarly-low AA ranges; you just don't see any of them (besides those solo-queue vaynes lol) because the marksmen who happen to be flavour-of-the-month are also the ones who are really good at punishing those types of champions in particular (champs in the same vein as Caitlyn or Lucian or something).

Everything else in this post is spot-on, though. The bit about assassins is understated because champions who can easily gapclose and instagib a low-mobility squishy like Jhin is going to go to town on him if he doesn't get some proper peels, which is a gamble outside of pre-arranged team matches. Jhin has a ton of flexibility in his kit as far as self-peeling goes, which leaves a lot of room for outplay and makes any given scrap a partial skill matchup, but also has blatant, exploitable disadvantages and may not be the right fit for every team/the OP freelo god marksman that he is revered as.

Requiemsfire2 votes

When the game hits around mid-late I would say Jhin is better off avoiding the enemy ADC all together simply because if they 1v1'd and Jhin had no help he would most likely lose the trade due lacking the damage per second, reliable CC which other ADC's have.

And you're right i did understate his weakness to assassins. Generally Jhin is on par with Kog'maw in terms of how strong assassins are against except Kog'maw late game can potentially melt an assassin before he drops his burst. We have Cait's trap and her net. We have Ashe's arrow and her slows. We have Varus's slows and his snare. We have Kallista's hopping mobility and support ultimate. Missfortune's slow, Sivir's spell shield and ultimate, Graves/Lucians dash, etc.

Jhin's only real peel is the MS boost he gains from crits and the snare from his W. I wouldn't rely on those to stop someone with a gap closer of course which is why I want to say, Jhin's ultimate highlights the greatest weakness of Jhin himself, and that's someone getting close to him. I can't recount the number of times I have died as Jhin because someone circled around while I ulted from the backline and killed me. Maybe that's a clear statement that says I suck badly and need to 'git gud' at map awareness instead of tunnel visioning into a fight but it happens a lot.

I also main Leona and find that the best time to target Jhin is just as he fires his 4th shot because he's defenseless and won't be able to put out enough damage over a short amount of time. This is early game of course, but I'm sure knowing this might help someone else.

sir d wreck2 votes

Yeah I don't think OP knows what a hyper carry is. Just because a carry is strong at certain points in the game doesn't just make them a hypercarry. I think Jhin is pretty strong sure, but I don't think he's an early game lane bully with a godlike mid and late game too. Late game he seems pretty vulnerable to reloading.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

I'd say he scales well into late game but certainly not like other ADC's. He becomes more of a finishing blow late game than your main source of DPS.

Requiemsfire1 votes

In terms of scaling, Jhin is nothing to be laughed at, he is incredible strong and bursty when played correctly and his backline utility can turn the tide of the fight. I'd never argue Jhin scaled badly but there's little doubt he is nowhere near as strong in terms of dueling potential compared to other ADCs. He's no Jinx that can mow down your entire team at full build.

Dessem3 votes

Any other ADC late game in a duel demolishes Jhin with sheer firepower and has the worse time dealing with assassins.

Absolutely true. Even early game, Lucian, Ashe, Tristana and Draven at least can go toe-to-toe with Jhin, or if they caught Jhin at a bad moment in his reload cycle absolutely destroy him.

Sona x Rubick8 votes

not saying that jhin is balanced

but he isn't a hyper carry.

IronwallJackson7 votes

Jhin's late game damage is formidable, but he's not a hypercarry, let's be real here. With his ammo system and limited attack speed, he's bursty monster, but he can't match the sustained DPS of an actual late game carry like Vayne or Kog'maw. He sees a lot of competitive play, but that isn't because of his scaling, rather it's a matter of utility and relative power. Since nothing reaches true late game in the LCS, Jihn has the chance to shine in the relatively short games where flat armor pen and %missing health will carry him through.

LatetotheRace1 votes

I feel like having 4 crits (1 of them being a megacrit) that hit 1200+ damage through 250 armor kind of qualifies his as a hyper carry,

IronwallJackson2 votes

Those 4 attacks are all very well and good, but it's still just 4, and they're also kind of slow. Jhin's damage per second is kind of pitiful when compared to other carries because they can easily attack twice as quickly as he can, if not moreso, and they don't have to stop for a breather.

For god's sake, his winrate has a steady downward curve as games stretch out.

Aptest2 votes

Jhin simply does not possess the DPS required to melt late game tanks.

I feel he is definitely decent VS assassins and "skirmishers" because their optimal pattern is to wait for the ADC to present himself and then delete the ADC. Jhin and his extreme range spells just does not exist as a target, whilst still participating in the team fight.

This creates pressure on the assassin to commit. And when they commit on a different target, Jhin can close in and work as an ADC.

A Bad Nasus4 votes

He's pretty strong right now, but nowhere near as overbearing as lucian back in season 4 where it was just rush item 1038 and win lane/game.

DunkinNoobs4 votes

Jhin falls of hard the way people are building him these days. Armor Pen Jhin is an oppressive lane bully that carries mid game hard, but the drop in power is significantly noticeable late game. Late game crit build Jhin, on the other hand? That shit is scary.

Also, "He's the Zed of ADC's right now."? You do know that Zed sucks ass right now, right? I think you mean he's the GP of adcs right now: ""pick GP, ban GP or if you're picking top before the opponents, pick something that won't get crushed quite as hard by a GP, just in case they pick GP."

XIII Vanitas4 votes

Jhin is a lane bully, not a hypercarry. His win rate goes down with game time.

Thunderspam3 votes

I speak as an ADC main, with Jhin being my favorite. Jhin does have very good gameplay and scaling(I mean really 120% Ad AND 100% Ap on his trap???) But I feel like his lack of mobility and attack speed balance that. Granted he converts attack speed and crit chance(I think) into raw AD, he is only able to get off 4 autos in the time ashe or jinx could get off like 10-15, and in the end they do roughly the same amount of damage. His kit is really unique and I feel like harder to play against, especially with the current meta of healer supps being more popular(like sona, soraka, and nami). With a healer, Jhin can put himself in situations that he couldn't with other supps like blitz or morgana. He also has a lot of CC compared to most ADC's. Jinx, Cait, and Jhin are the only ones that specifically come to mind with direct CC(im not counting ashe's passive slow). And while he is strong I feel like there are far better ADC champs to play. Lucian, Ezreal, and Ashe are usually regarded as stronger as well as being fair. I feel that over all, he seems fairly balanced, maybe being a bit stronger than average, but only because its harder to play against fif you've mastered him. This however is only my opinion and I understand where you all are coming from, having all people who main that champ thinking that he/she is balanced. I made a list of all of the Pros and Cons to Jhin that I could think of off the top of my head.

PROS: strong early and late game good range decent cc good scaling and damage Ult is great for setting up teamfights or picking off lone targets late game is strong for 1v1 4th bullet makes great poke early game

CONS: lack of mobility If the enemy JG is smart, he gets camped and kill due to the mobility issue heavily support dependent early game hard to master given the reload mechanism and timing it Has a really unique kit to play with/against, while rewarding it is hard to master Assassins eat him for lunch, dinner and have him as a side during tea time

All in all id say hes alright, not the strongest but still powerful if played to his max potential Comment if I missed a good pro or con on Jhin, hope you all like it :)

CeexSett1 votes

Wow the trap is scaling is hardly the issue here. You can complain about every other ability with some foundament, but his E is just that spell who thrown there because there was nothing left to do.

Thunderspam1 votes

stack 2-3 of them and root them inside. Jhins traps will each do 120% of his AD plus the W damage. Late game 2 traps will instantly kill a full health enemy ADC and some mid and toplaners. And that's just 2-3. Ive stacked 4-5 in one spot and almost killed their tankier champs(I think I got a nautilus but I don't remember for sure).

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Might just be my lower ELO, but I have set off a LOT of Jhin traps, only been actually damaged by one once. And that was due to me being too retarded to pay attention to what I had stepped in. His trap is probably one of the fairest stealth traps in the game.

Thunderspam1 votes

that's what his root is for But I do agree I use them mostly for stopping the enemy jg from ganking me and for scaring the supp blitz or morana out of a bush. Sometimes if you put them in a spot and let the enemy see u place it then u can use mind games and make them not walk there, making them easier targets

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Jhin is the 2nd strongest ADC right behind Ashe. He has nerfs incoming and well deserved ones too, as well as likely nerfs to Ghostblade and Duskblade.

Thunderspam1 votes

Id say that's pretty accurate, depending on your level of skill on said champ. Ashe is fairly easy compared to some ADC champs like Sivir, and she is super strong to boot. Jhin is harder but can do just as well if not better that other ADC champs

Davarril1 votes

Jhin is only the best because his armpen build is extremely good in the early game, not the fact that the champion is unbalanced.

Ace Access 3 votes

as someone whose been playing a lot of jhin I can say he is no hyper carry the only hyper he has in his kit is the damage on hit 4th attack

focus him with hard cc and he dies easily

Jhin UItd JFK3 votes

Jhin's winrate falls off at a steady amount if you look up his champion.gg so I wouldn't really call him a hyper carry. His strengths are his ability to, as you said, have high kill pressure in lane and create picks in the mid game with traps, his W and his ult. He is very immobile, and his "korean" build makes him even more immobile with the lack of crit until mid-late game.

As well, I think the nerfs will do something to help bring him down. Being able to deal damage from the range Jhin can is insanely powerful, and while a 20% ratio nerf might not seem like much, it will definitely be noticeable. As well, a cap on how much damage each bullet from his ult will be added.

Davarril1 votes

the only crit he even builds is IE

Jhin UItd JFK1 votes

{quoted}

the only crit he even builds is IE

His usual Arm Pen build is Ghostblade>Duskblade>Boots>IE>Shiv/RFC or LW

Davarril1 votes

I've always seen people build item 3036 last, my bad though

Mecha Incognito3 votes

I wouldn't say he is a hyper carry. Someone that IS a lane bully & can go into hyper carry mode is someone like Draven.

I kinda like where Jhin is, I do think his W is a little too forgiving though, it's really fast for it's range and utility and damage later on.

Hige3 votes

do you remember what people said about Jhin on his release? everyone was calling him weak or a waste of time or that his reload was dumb, that his ult was hard to land and that his traps were useless...

This is simply game knowledge through experience, neither we as players or the community as a whole could predict a champion's best case scenario and this applies to Riot as well, they designed an adc that worked on paper and who had several limitations that showed up on the PBE and on his release, they could have never predicted that he'd become the monster he is today through the data they were handling from internal playtesting and from the PBE and from more than 3 months of live play.

Take Karma for example, her numbers on her W have been pretty much the same since she was reworked and only recently someone came up with tank Karma and she's suddenly broken OP, she's been called weak and useless for over 2 years and suddenly she's broken.

My point is that this isn't riot's fault, there's no way to predict these kind of outcomes (though for Kled this is hard to believe since the community screamed at riot about the whole health% dmg but oh well) and all what Riot can do is simply react accordingly which is something they are doing, they're nerfing Jhin on the PBE currently.

MunchCrunchLunch3 votes

every adc is a hypercarry. people compare adc's to other adcs and not to other champions because adc's are on another level due to items.

look at draven. in lane he can all in any other adc pretty much at level 3-4 and can force a flash meanwhile late game he will crit you for 1500 damage.

no adc ever falls off. they can fall off compared to the other adc but not as a whole they can still rek you. i don't call jhin 2k 4th shot crits or the 3k damage ult or the 1k+ autos falling off.

Davarril1 votes

"No adc ever falls off."

This statement is completely wrong considering Jhin's winrate progressively gets lower and lower as the game goes longer.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

yes because hes going against an other adc that scales better.

BUT ALSO. thats due to his current build. armor pen. that falls off on every adc in the game.

Davarril1 votes

His strength is early to mid game, and he falls off late game with his most powerful build.

I don't see how your comment refuted your ignorant claims.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

Jhin's current "Korean" build doesn't actually scale very well. A more typical ADC build would scale better.

This is largely the theme of these "Korean" builds.

item 3142 item 3147 item 3009 item 3094 item 3031 item 3036 is early to mid game based.

item 3508 item 3094 item 3006 item 3031 item 3036 item 3072 is a better late game build, I think.

So he isn't a lane bully and a late game hypercarry right now, and probably won't ever be one. His frankly somewhat low DPS will always make him not as good late as Twitch, Vayne, or Kog'maw.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

When it gets to late game, ArPen builds often sell their ArPen for crit chance so they trade nothing.

Tis a nice day1 votes

It'll still cost u money to make the transition

PermabannedGaren1 votes

{quoted}

When it gets to late game, ArPen builds often sell their ArPen for crit chance so they trade nothing.

That costs way more gold than just buying the build normally. I mean sure, super late game Jhin can do that, but very few games go that long.

Jasiwel2 votes

He's being nerfed on PBE, so that'll probably put an end to his excessive power. Frankly, his Q/W damage was too high all around and that made his laning a lot stronger than it needed to.

Miles The Man2 votes

The thing is, Jhin is super easy to gank unless he has a Leona or Nautilus who is constantly beside him.

Astôlfo2 votes

http://puu.sh/qDMA0/f41306f84f.jpg

"late game hypercarry"

Uh, so.

Unless he goes his full crit build (ER-IE-and then various crit/AS items like RFC, PD, SS, so on and so forth), he's not going to be anywhere even close to a late game carry. His Ghostblade/Duskblade + semi-crit build is far better in early and mid game IF he snowballs with it, but then it falls off quite hard into late game.

Also, even with his full crit build, he's still not a late game carry. Let's see. One, two, three, four. And then... Waiting.... Waiting... Waiting... Oh, I reloade- oh wait I'm already dead. No one is going to wait for him to finish a 2.5 second static reload.

Every other ADC can output the same, if not more, damage he does in a more steady DPS fashion instead. While Jhin has massive burst on each of his four shots (particularly the fourth), he's practically useless without his autos. The only thing that's reliably going to do anything perhaps is his Q if someone gets to him, but that doesn't give him a mark for his W, which means no peel. And his E is mostly useless to anyone chasing him down because it has an arm time where they can clearly see and just walk around it. And you're not going to get off an ult on anyone who wants to chase you down and kill you. Meanwhile, just about every other ADC will demolish people with machine-gun rates of fire + high crit chance (if not 100% even by late) and not be useless while "reloading" because... they don't have a reload.

In both cases, the ADC's team can peel for them (or at least try to), but Jhin will be practically useless while reloading while the other ADC will be constantly useful.

Pika Fox2 votes

He falls off late game.

Yes, he has insane single target damage, but all other ADCs have better consistent damage. Even lucian, who also falls off late game, out damages jhin late game.

Even statistically jhin loses more games the longer the games last.

So "late game hypercarry" is patently false.

Hes too strong at the moment and is being nerfed, but its not because his late game is too strong. Its mostly because his early game is too good, and even if he loses early he can still be useful in a fight from complete safety and get easy picks just by pressing R.

Poske2 votes

A hypercarry?

LeL no

Spoofghoul1 votes

Thats pretty much every adc ever right now

grab 1½ item and start ruining everyones day

all thanks to fervor warlords arpen and fucking runaans

Davarril1 votes

Considering Jhin doesn't even use Fervor, Warlords, OR Runaan's, i don't see why this comment is here.

Spoofghoul1 votes

well jhin is pretty much the only one who doesnt use these items/masteries

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Jhin is a ranged assassin that can go bot lane.

As an assassin, he has a really poor early game and poor roaming, that's his weakness.

As a marksman, he's fucking awful at taking turrets. Seriously, a carry without attack speed is not a carry. That's his weakness.

He's not a weak character at any point in the game in regards to damage, so from a marksman perspective you just play divers and kill him while he's spending 10 seconds taking a turret.

Hello I am Bird1 votes

Assassins aren't bad at roaming?

Thats kinda one of their strengths :/

Davarril1 votes

He's almost being played as a caster-adc because his base damages are so good, hence why the pen build is so successful.

MRTAKINGOVER1 votes

He's not a late game hyper carry. Because of his passive, he can't deal ANY damage for 2.5 seconds every four autos plus it took him like 4 seconds to pull off 4 autos. in a team fight, a full build jinx or kog'maw can auto at least 15 times compare to jhin's 4. Your entire team is basically melted after you reload your second round of bullet lol...

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