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A quick Moment of Silence for the old Shen.

EmollientNut0··34 votes·3,541 views

A champion that was taken from us too soon.

  • Because they promised to keep his identity, but he's not a sustain tank anymore.
  • Because we needed a 3-hit autoattack.
  • Because his q was too oppressive, but Nunu's E needs to be buffed.
  • Because no one knew how to properly use his W.
  • Because in a world where Ezreal's E is up every 4 seconds, they needed to cut his mobility in half.
  • Because 400 energy, but at least we have 5 more movespeed.
  • Because fighting a ranged champion in lane wasn't enough of it's own layer of hell.
  • Because his Q didn't matter for your ADC's health, and your team leaving Dragon or Baron with more health then when they started wasn't that useful of a mechanic.
  • Because Spirit Visage is a "situational" item now. What?
  • Because his new W is so awesome and OP, now only champions with QWER are an issue.
  • Because any engage on an enemy champion should involve blowing your escape.
  • Because why should your taunt that forces people to attack you have the 50% damage reduction that made Thornmail worth it?
  • Because as of just last year he finally started to see some professional play again.
  • Because his Taunt needed to be physical damage to make his damage split even more annoying.

A lot of people seem to like the new one a lot, but I strongly prefer the original for a number of reasons. Gonna miss you old friend <3

[slayer-jinx-catface]

88 Comments

Penns12 votes

People always said Shens E and his ult define his identity. I dont think many people thought of Shen as a "sustain tank" lol. And he is still a strong duelist especially against tanks. Old Shen was just boring to play against, you couldnt outplay him, he had no cool mechanics,...

EmollientNut07 votes

You're unbelievably wrong on all fronts. Right, because what we care about is how much fun YOU have fighting the champion we liked. Is Ryze fun to lane against? Renekton/Teemo/Garen/Heimer? If you dont like fighting them, pick a different lane. His sustain was a huge part of his viability top lane and support, with easy early Dragons and Heralds. Old Shen definitely had weaknesses, if you couldn't outplay him that's on you. I'll skip your definition of what a "cool mechanic" is as well, considering no one else in the game had an ability like his q.

Incognonymous9 votes

{quoted}

People always said Shens E and his ult define his identity. I dont think many people thought of Shen as a "sustain tank" lol. And he is still a strong duelist especially against tanks. Old Shen was just boring to play against, you couldnt outplay him, he had no cool mechanics,...

E and ult? Meh.

For me, the defining elements of Shen was the interplay between passive-Q-W. Shen was a sustain tank. You can disagree, as Riot has, but it doesn't make it less valid.

Penns5 votes

Shen was always that guy with global pressure and that guy that can split push because he has his ult for fights. Both his Q and his W were just generic point and click abilities that required pretty much no brain to use. Of course you can have your opinion, but still.

Incognonymous4 votes

{quoted}

Shen was always that guy with global pressure and that guy that can split push because he has his ult for fights. Both his Q and his W were just generic point and click abilities that required pretty much no brain to use. Of course you can have your opinion, but still.

I jungled him a lot. Global map pressure is nice, but I wouldn't rate split pushing high on my objectives list. But in the jungle, the sustain, damage, shield, and cooldown reduction from the passive-Q-W interaction is what made him effective. Point and click? Sure. That doesn't necessarily diminish his Q in the scope of the kit. Parley is point and click, yet what is GP without it? Same for Shen.

Penns5 votes

Well GPs Q is needed for his E, the bonus gold and his ult upgrades. Shens Q is pretty much just... there.

If you asked people who Shen is, Im pretty sure most of them would say "that guy with the global shield and teleport for his team that has a taunt" rather than "that guy that can like... shoot a blade and press a button for a shield every few seconds"...

EmollientNut06 votes

Again, ridiculous post. Because his Q can blow up his barrels it's an "Interesting point-and-click" to you, When Shen's literally directly effects the health of him and all of his teammates? Nice consistency. And again, your perception of his identity doesnt matter because YOU don't play him. Is Garen known as the guy that spins and drops a giant sword or the guy that has a passive health regen after 8 seconds? You're kind of just driveling on at this point. Thanks for walking in to my post and down-voting everything you could click though, much appreciated.

Penns4 votes

I never said GPs Q is interesting because it isnt, but he still needs it in his kit. Shen doesnt need his Q for anything other than... being a spell, its easily replacable. Yasuos Q for example isnt that exciting either, but he can use it combined with his E and he needs it for his ult (at least most of the time). His kit has synergy with itself, which is why Yasuo is a well designed champ. At least now, Shens W has some synergy with his Q and even his ult because he can move a big ass blade.

Like I said, you can ask anyone "who Shen is", I doubt many people would mention his old Q and W over his unique ult and skillshot taunt. And Im not saying Shen is the only champ like that, look at Volibear. He just has 5 random abilities thrown together too.

Vistha Kai4 votes

Having a teleport doesn't make a good splitpusher out of a champion that has 0 waveclear without Sunfire.

Shen's defining game pattern was sustain tank, period. Being able to turn every 1v1/2v2 etc around is another thing, but barely defining as a whole.

Joe Dredd4 votes

lol. this is actually stupid af.

Vistha Kai4 votes

Which part of it exactly?

Joe Dredd2 votes

Being able to turn every 1v1/2v2 etc around is another thing, but barely defining as a whole

"barely defining"

Sammystorm3 votes

He was boring to play against but "cool mechanics" is completely subjective.

Penns4 votes

Well lets say he had no "interactive" mechanics. He pressed buttons, but he didnt really have to think about timing or anything. Pretty much just spam Q and W whenever off cooldown...

Vistha Kai4 votes

You say that as if it was any less true now.

Penns4 votes

Because it is.. If you spam Q everytime its off cooldown without thinking about hitting someone with your blade, you most likely lose extra damage and a slow. And if you dont use your W right, it does nothing.

Vistha Kai3 votes

Just as before you couldn't spam Q if there was no target in range.

The difference between then and now is that you have much less control over current "range".

Also, the same change you perceive as "interactive" equals to less interactivity for Shen aganist anybody outside of his melee range.

Sammystorm3 votes

All energy/resourcless champs are this way. Including new shen. When their is very little to no consequence to spamming an ability then it gets spammed. There was nothing wrong with Shen's old kit except that he used energy and that made him very spamming and very difficult to lane against. Now he is still spammy but shen has a lot less control over the lane.

Penns1 votes

Of course energy champs can spam their spells, but Shen just spammed them literally everytime of cooldown in a fight for max value. There was no timing or positioning required for his old q and w, you just used Q whenever off cooldown. Now, if you dont hit your enemy with the blade, you lose 6% max hp damage, a situational slow and 50% attack speed.

Sammystorm2 votes

Except even if you miss your q you get 3 empowered auto attacks. There is literally no downside to missing the q. Hitting q is what will separate good shen players from great ones.

EmollientNut05 votes

Wow, I'm so glad there's people that feel this way with me. I've quit and come back to this game on a number of occasions, and the main reason I ended up coming back every time was to play my favorite champion. I have 350k Mastery with him, and he's always been my safe pick and "Hidden OP." Kinda laughed when I saw the question on the homepage of "Who is your hidden OP?" I just thought, "The guy you're stripping the identity of in 2 weeks." Did they really mean by "Keeping his identity" Just letting him keep 2 of his old abilities and a worse version of one of them?

Lady Hammerlock3 votes

{quoted}

Wow, I'm so glad there's people that feel this way with me. I've quit and come back to this game on a number of occasions, and the main reason I ended up coming back every time was to play my favorite champion. I have 350k Mastery with him, and he's always been my safe pick and "Hidden OP." Kinda laughed when I saw the question on the homepage of "Who is your hidden OP?" I just thought, "The guy you're stripping the identity of in 2 weeks." Did they really mean by "Keeping his identity" Just letting him keep 2 of his old abilities and a worse version of one of them?

fighting teemo with new shen is hell with old shen it was way easier...

Incognonymous5 votes

Indeed. The Champ Formerly Known as Shen, although this isn't a new occurrence.

EmollientNut05 votes

True, but I think this is the first time a rework has been this unbelievably unnecessary and lacked direction. They said they were gonna "Preserve" the original champion and they absolutely didn't.

Incognonymous3 votes

{quoted}

True, but I think this is the first time a rework has been this unbelievably unnecessary and lacked direction. They said they were gonna "Preserve" the original champion and they absolutely didn't.

I would agree. Old Shen was fine, and even if he were weak, he could've been fixed easily. I wouldn't go so far as to say it lacked direction, maybe, but the direction taken is very disappointing. Same with Poppy. Same with Sion. I look at these champs and think "why would they do this to them?"

EmollientNut06 votes

On the directional end I mean things like taunt synergy:

  • They eliminated his 50% damage reduction on taunt.
  • The reduced damage seriously hindered lifesteal and damage to you, making the purchase worth it.
  • Not to mention you dont get ANY damage off of thornmail if the W is up, because the attack is being dodged.

One of the only champs with the hard CC that makes Tmail worth buying in a serious way now has no synergy with it?

I actually do think those two reworks were done better than this one, considering the older versions of both champs had quite a few game breaking properties.

Incognonymous3 votes

{quoted}

On the directional end I mean things like taunt synergy:

  • They eliminated his 50% damage reduction on taunt.
  • The reduced damage seriously hindered lifesteal and damage to you, making the purchase worth it.
  • Not to mention you dont get ANY damage off of thornmail if the W is up, because the attack is being dodged.

One of the only champs with the hard CC that makes Tmail worth buying in a serious way now has no synergy with it?

I actually do think those two reworks were done better than this one, considering the older versions of both champs had quite a few game breaking properties.

You raise an interesting point about the Thornmail interaction when W is up. The damage reduction... I won't pretend to understand the logic behind it's removal, but as a kit aspect, it takes up a lot of power budget. Maybe because Ki barrier supposedly comes back up if well timed? I don't know. Shields just don't do it for me as a defensive element. I like flat steroids-- non-health defensive scaling. It's one of the few things I like about new Poppy.

EmollientNut02 votes

To me the fact is there's only 3 champions in the entire game that have a taunt. They can't let him keep 1 of the 3 parts of it that make it a unique piece of crowd control? Keep in mind that 50% applied BEFORE defenses came in to play, which is why often when you dashed on to someone it looked like they were doing basically no damage at all. However even though their damage was cut down by the 50%, they still had 100% of the thornmail damage from a regular auto returned to them on hit, even if their attacks were doing 40 damage per. That's why I found the Taunt and thorn so helpful to begin with.

Arcane Azmadi3 votes

Eh, the Poppy and Sion reworks were actually really good because a) they actually really needed them (the old ones were a mess) and b) Riot actually put real effort into them. Both Poppy and Sion suffered badly from "season 1 champ syndrome", namely the ridiculous AP scaling on champions who were clearly supposed to be melee bruisers, half of Sion's kit didn't synergise with the other half, and Poppy had two skills (her passive and her ult) that were just RIDICULOUSLY OP, forcing them to compensate by making her the most weaksauce laner in the game. Plus their new thematic designs (from zombie-Arnold to giant raging juggernaut with a furnace in his belly and from butt-ugly yordle with no sense of humour to cute, plucky yordle girl with low self-esteem but endless determination) were really awesome and gave them much more personality, not to mention spectacular new models to replace the ugly-as-hell old ones.

Shen didn't need a rework. He was more or less fine. His kit synergised with itself and gave him a clear identity, a versatile playstyle (he could go, top, jungle or support) and well-defined strengths and weaknesses. The new kit threw all that out the window to lean on "muh hp% damage", exaggerated his weaknesses and severely limited his versatility (support Shen is less than a bad joke now). And they totally half-assed it too; while they gave him an updated model and splash arts, they couldn't even be bothered giving him a recall animation.

Incognonymous2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcane Azmadi,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mmBYWhKM,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2016-01-29T21:43:44.656+0000)

As someone who played both AD and AP Poppy and AD and AP Sion... I agree. I don't think the reworks were REALLY good, but something had to be done about their unhealthy kits. I'm just very disappointed with some of the design decisions made. Why was Poppy's Q taken away, why was she made into a tank, why was Sion made into a tank, I could go on. I mean... these aren't the same champs. I think that's largely the problem with Riot brand reworks. They claim they want to retain champ identity, but rarely manage to stick the landing.

I feel the same about new Shen. Not that he needed the rework, but Shen could've used a champ update, sure; a reevaluation of his kit and playstyle that led to eventual QoL updates, small buffs, and minor changes. He didn't need a rework-- certainly not when there are more egregious offenses being committed.

Balderdash10003 votes

{quoted}

True, but I think this is the first time a rework has been this unbelievably unnecessary and lacked direction. They said they were gonna "Preserve" the original champion and they absolutely didn't.

Skarner says hi.

Arcane Azmadi2 votes

I actually agree with this. The Skarner rework was garbage too and completely ruined the champion. But at least he MOSTLY plays the same, apart from being incredibly weaker at all stages unless he's plonked his ass down on one of those stupid spires.

Neidox5 votes

Anything that remotely outranges Shen in lane becomes a god damn nightmare. Can't even CS let alone harass. And if you do harass, its a mandatory all in.

Manwalrus5 votes

My main problem is that his new Q seems like an ability that a reworked Irelia might have and makes no sense thematically, it's just there.

EmollientNut02 votes

Couldn't agree more. It might have made sense if you got 2 empowered autos and then a blade skillshot that has the same health regen attached to it, That's "Preserving." Why do I feel like that's infinitely more interesting than Riot's Q? Should I apply?

iody4 votes

i don't see the problem. now he stacks health and fills the same roll he always did. hard peel, great split push, global presence. He has more damage, and better outplay ability with his w being able to block all autoattacks for him and allies for a brief period. not only is his jg clear better but his ability to utilize titanic hydra makes him dumb strong. stacking titanic and his q will shred any tank or squishy.

Sammystorm4 votes

The problem people have is that riot took a simple yet effective kit and turned it into a convoluted kit. Their is more counterplay now and he is probably more balanced.

EmollientNut06 votes

Not to mention left him much less mobile, and very literally gave him Mordekaiser's q.

EmollientNut05 votes

The problem is he's not Shen, doesnt play like Shen and has a lot of different aspects that weakened his kit overall. They let him keep his R and E, and his E's considerably worse than it ever was.

EmollientNut02 votes

I guarantee an old Shen built right could outdamage the new one. Unfortunately there's no way to prove that.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

Don't make the mistake of saying he isn't Shen anymore. He isn't old Shen anymore, he's new. You think when Sion was changed that he played like old Sion anymore? Hell no. But he was better. More people can play him, he has more counter play, more opportunities to outplay opponents. They swapped out an old, stale kit of throw Q and heal from it, occasionally dashing and putting in the global ult. Now he's got a new coat of paint and a new set of arms. (Both figuratively and literally.) You have to see the bigger picture here, no matter how much it hurts. Sorry that you feel bad about it, but now more can play him and have fun. Not just a few.

AlwaysByMySide2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Dyment,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mmBYWhKM,comment-id=000700010001,timestamp=2016-01-29T20:36:04.202+0000)

Don't make the mistake of saying he isn't Shen anymore. He isn't old Shen anymore, he's new. You think when Sion was changed that he played like old Sion anymore? Hell no. But he was better. More people can play him, he has more counter play, more opportunities to outplay opponents. They swapped out an old, stale kit of throw Q and heal from it, occasionally dashing and putting in the global ult. Now he's got a new coat of paint and a new set of arms. (Both figuratively and literally.) You have to see the bigger picture here, no matter how much it hurts. Sorry that you feel bad about it, but now more can play him and have fun. Not just a few.

Shen didn't have a low play rate.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shen/Top

This data is from last patch. Notice how he has the fifth highest play rate top.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

I didn't say that not many played him, I said now more can play him. And against him for that matter.

EmollientNut01 votes

Why do so many people have this ridiculous notion that his old kit with his OPPRESSIVE Q was "Unstoppable?" Holy hell, fight a top lane Nunu now.

Doctor Dyment2 votes

I... uh. I never said that his Q was overly oppressive. Look, new Shen is better for the whole community overall. And while you may disagree and are upset over losing Shen's original kit there isn't anything else you can do about it. And, because I could make posts like this for every reply and find myself stuck here for days trying to keep this whole thing civilized, I'm just going to leave this post now. And seeing as how this dropped off the front page faster than someone who just picked up a white hot piece of metal, everyone else seems to have too. Yeah, I just said I'd keep this civilized but, whatever.

Arcane Azmadi2 votes

So basically his entire kit now is "but muh hp% damage".

Mama Soraka2 votes

I liked taking old Shen top against Darius and maxing W first. You never forget taking 0 damage from a Darius ult with a properly timed W. RIP my old ninja pal, you'll never quite be the same.

Straley2 votes

I also prefer the old Shen especially because of the sustain. Extremely helpful in both top and as support.

Skid1132 votes

that's exactly everything I couldn't figure out how to type because my brain was still melting over my first game with the new shen, im so upset with riot right now

Cowgirl Ed2 votes

lol @all the people saying "shen? sustain tank? what it means?"

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