They're adding 5 WHOLE HEALTH to the total amount given. I can't believe they're doing this, every health scaling champion's gonna be banned.
** PS: This mastery's been a joke ever since they changed it from 4% max to a flat amount. It's just another non-decision in our wonderful new mastery tree.**
Mandang064 votesLMAO, people blow the change from %HP to flat HP out of proportion so much.
When you finally get 3000 HP, the 4% Vet's Scars would've been... 75 (soon 70) more HP! 75 HP out of 3000 total?! WHOAAAAA super significant!!!
Mind you, this is the point when the difference favored %HP Vet's Scars the most. At level 1, you've got ~20 more HP from flat Vet's than you would've had from %HP Vet's, and that's 20 HP at a point in the game when you only had 600 HP total. That's 20 HP at a point in the game when an enemy auto attack only deals 50 damage, rather than 75 HP when the ADC is critting you for 400 lategame.
Face it: If Vet's Scars isn't good now, it wasn't good then either.
Lauricella323 votesLMAO, people blow the change from %HP to flat HP out of proportion so much.
When you finally get 3000 HP, the 4% Vet's Scars would've been... 75 (soon 70) more HP! 75 HP out of 3000 total?! WHOAAAAA super significant!!!
Mind you, this is the point when the difference favored %HP Vet's Scars the most. At level 1, you've got ~20 more HP from flat Vet's than you would've had from %HP Vet's, and that's 20 HP at a point in the game when you only had 600 HP total. That's 20 HP at a point in the game when an enemy auto attack only deals 50 damage, rather than 75 HP when the ADC is critting you for 400 lategame.
Face it: If Vet's Scars isn't good now, it wasn't good then either.
4% of 3000 is 120
Mandang020 votesYes, and what's the difference between that and the 45 flat HP Vet's Scars currently offers?
Blackstone0145 votes75 health.
Mandang05 votesTY <3
Ahristocats6 votesare you smoking weed? 120 hp is totally better than 45, not to say that EVERY bruises and tanks have 4k hp now, which means that it would give 160.
since they changed it to 45 when you got 1100 hp your masteries was already worse then before
Mandang023 votesGo back and read my post. Stop assuming the game starts at 4k HP, account for the proportional difference the change from %HP to flat HP makes at each point in the game, and then reevaluate the OP's real point of Vet's Scars not competing with Runic Armor and ask why that is.
No one's arguing 120 < 45. No one was ever arguing that, and that's why I never mentioned the number 120 nor the number 45 in my post. The important point (of my post) is whether the change mattered, not whether the absolute amount did.
Shonjl2 votes4% of 3000 is 120
Still doesn't mean anything since by the time someone has 3k hp, basically anyone at that point is gonna hit that much in any kind of attack anyways, hell even Braum will probably auto you for about 100 by that point. That isn't helping you any.
That should be an early game mastery, since say if you got 100 or so health then, that is 2-4 autos or spells early game, that is actually big, vs late game where that is at best 1 auto or a fraction of the 500-800 damage skill/spell or auto you just took.
Bears Dont Care1 votesStill doesn't mean anything since by the time someone has 3k hp, basically anyone at that point is gonna hit that much in any kind of attack anyways, hell even Braum will probably auto you for about 100 by that point. That isn't helping you any.
That should be an early game mastery, since say if you got 100 or so health then, that is 2-4 autos or spells early game, that is actually big, vs late game where that is at best 1 auto or a fraction of the 500-800 damage skill/spell or auto you just took.
Uhhh.. armor? It's thing
Shonjl1 votes[{quoted}](name=Bears Dont Care,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EkxI7l5f,comment-id=0004000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-12T12:00:22.889+0000)
Uhhh.. armor? It's thing
Armor or MR doesn't mean anything if you don't have health backing it up. Even a pure armor Rammus 80-120 health isn't helping him any. Even if an ADC's damage is reduced by say 80%, and that is being generous since reduction % gets lower the more you stack. That will cut off 640 damage off a 800 crit, so they still will hit you for 160, so that is 1 more auto to kill him. But this is not taking into consideration that 80% reduction isn't happening, the ADC most likely getting Armor Pen and basically ruining everything he worked for. 
destroys Rammus since effectively half of all his armor is completely ignored, on top of you dealing %extra damage to him.
Let's use the 80% reduction again, that 800 hit will now only mitigate 280 damage due to the armor pen, bringing it to 520 damage, assuming the %extra damage is applied after, add in another 78 and you are basically hitting 600s on him, that 120 health isn't saving him from being killed in roughly 6 hits which for an ADC is basically 4 seconds.
Basically the point I am saying is even with insane Armor or MR, 100 health isn't saving anyone. You are literally better off using Undying if you are a tankier person since it outright deals 4% max hp damage and heals you for it. With 3k hp which anyone can easily get, (tanks can actually get to 4-5k) you are basically hitting 150 free extra damage every couple seconds that also is giving that damage to your health. So literally 1 hit is already better than that extra health.
(Numbers I am sure aren't 100% correct since it is bonus armor and I don't know how to equations work, but its a rough estimates)
The Yetii Rider5 votesLMAO, people blow the change from %HP to flat HP out of proportion so much.
When you finally get 3000 HP, the 4% Vet's Scars would've been... 75 (soon 70) more HP! 75 HP out of 3000 total?! WHOAAAAA super significant!!!
Mind you, this is the point when the difference favored %HP Vet's Scars the most. At level 1, you've got ~20 more HP from flat Vet's than you would've had from %HP Vet's, and that's 20 HP at a point in the game when you only had 600 HP total. That's 20 HP at a point in the game when an enemy auto attack only deals 50 damage, rather than 75 HP when the ADC is critting you for 400 lategame.
Face it: If Vet's Scars isn't good now, it wasn't good then either.
A) 4% of 3000 is 120
B) Tanks don't get 3000 health. What, are you joking? Tanks get between 4-6k health, depending on the champion. Champions with extreme health buffs like Nasus, Cho'Gath, Sion and Nunu can easily reach 6k by the end of the game if they spec in it, which makes the old Scars mastery 240 bonus health, which is almost as much as the capstone Strength of Ages giving 300 health. It was a very efficient point, and that's why it got nerfed.
Mandang014 votesMy post is addressing the DIFFERENCE between the %HP and flat HP masteries (this is directly mentioned in the first sentence). 120-45 = 75.
You say 6k health and you're asking if I'm the one joking? Lol, OK...
Anyway, my point is that most of the arguments in favor of %HP (yours included) are dependent on assuming very lategame is reached, which is both not guaranteed and is a point when the small bonuses from masteries become proportionally less important. I'm not saying %HP is never good (hence why I never used 120 in my post), I'm saying that old Vet's Scars and new Vet's Scars don't differ enough to make the OP's complaint about the change carry any weight.
Arthimetes4 votesSo you're saying it's crazy to give tanks ~600g worth of free hp lategame with that mastery but ADC's and attack speed fighters can have 3885g worth of physical damage on fervor of battle?
I'll be more reasonable since it isn't flat ad and give it a value of about half, so say 1900g since it only affects basic attacks.
Even masteries favor the AD master race.
The Yetii Rider3 votesSo you're saying it's crazy to give tanks ~600g worth of free hp lategame with that mastery but ADC's and attack speed fighters can have 3885g worth of physical damage on fervor of battle?
I'll be more reasonable since it isn't flat ad and give it a value of about half, so say 1900g since it only affects basic attacks.
Even masteries favor the AD master race.
I never said that. I said the mastery was powerful and that's why it got nerfed.
I think Fervor of Battle, Grasp of the Undying, Thunderlord's Decree, Deathfire Touch, all Spellblade items, Luden's Echo, all Hextech items, Duskblade, and every other non-kit source of base damage should be removed from the game. If champions aren't getting enough damage from their kits, their scaling or bases can be tuned for that. Base damage in itemization and masteries simply cannot exist without abuse cases. But I know that's an unpopular opinion so I usually keep it to myself.
Nine Ravens2 votesYou can't really compare masteries in different tiers like that - Keystone masteries are supposed to be more powerful than lower-tier masteries. A better comparison would be to Natural Talent, a scaling mastery in the same tier which gives 350g worth of AD and 326g worth of AP at level 18, for a value of 676g if a champion can utilize both AD and AP efficiently.
PB4UAME4 votesWhat in Resolve is worth even close to 3885g in stats? Maybe if you combine the whole tree you'd get that.
Abyssphere2 votesThat's not really the point. If the Resolve keystones are lacking then that's whatever, but the basic point is that complaining that Veteran's Scars is weak in comparison to Fervor of Battle is insane. Of course it is - what kind of idiot would expect it to be of equal value to a mastery that requires much further investment and trade-off to acquire?
Natural Talent is the most valid Ferocity comparison for Veteran's Scars for obvious reasons. Fervor does not belong in this discussion.
Arthimetes1 votesLet's compare Strength of the Ages then, 300 max hp, so about 800g.
hmm...
And if you want to compare natural talent thats 676g worth of GUARANTEED stats, veterans scars used to rely heavily on stacking hp to even come close to 600g worth of stats.
In Mandango's reasonable estimate of 120 hp from veteran's scars thats a grand total of 319g in stats on the old 4% hp version, HALF the value of natural talent. (the current value at 50 hp being only 133g). The 600g I gave was on The Yeti Rider's 6k hp example, which is unreasonable unless you're Sion.
kasfas4 votesThe difference is that it only takes 1251 hp to break even, and every point of hp afterwards is profit. For most people who would use the mastery, the 4% may end up equating to 160 hp at 4000 with items. That's still a big difference, even adds would get more hp lategame with old 4%. And even though you say that those 50 points are meant to be good early, the healing from base regen, pots, and life steal outdo the 50 easily, and it's not very often that 50hp will save you from a ton of burst ealy anyway.
Mandang03 votesFirst off, thank you for a well-thought reply and actually taking the time to read mine.
And yes, I'll admit you can push 4% HP past 120 total if you get to late-enough games. That said, I still believe the average case (accounting for quick games, games when you purchase non-health defense like Thornmail, FH, IBG, etc, and games where the enemy team is so damage-heavy you pop regardless) is one in which the difference is negligible and the choice between Vet's Scars and Runic Armor has remained as lopsided as it's currently perceived to be.
As for whether the 50 HP is outdone early: sure, but I see that as the general argument for Runic Armor over Vet's Scars in general, regardless of whether Vet's is %HP or flat. That said, while 50 HP might not save you early, I still think it does more than 150 HP does late, when autos deal 400 damage rather than 50. In either case, I think the problem of mastery non-choices is one that's been here for awhile and I don't think the change in Vet's Scars actually changed that.
Spoofghoul2 votescritting for 400 rofl
ive seen adc crit for 2k
must have stacked phantomdancers then
Mandang02 votesThe usual assumption in these threads is maxed-out tanks, so I decided to give a conservative estimate.
Toru Itai1 voteswhat if they had both the flat and the % increas in HP!?!
T RexHasTinyArms1 votesThis seems a bit off. I mean yeah it was 75 hp, but the 120 was close to TRIPPLE the 45 it was switched to. 75 isn't much compared to a 1k crit AA or ability hitting you, but if you think about it in terms of value vs what you can buy it is huge. It is 75 HP which is 15-30% or so I'd guess of the HP on MOST major items that give HP. This is ignoring that if you're a cinder hulk jungle it is actually more like 80-90 extra HP. You only have 6 slots to buy items in so adding 10-30% hp to an item is pretty good (which is what it would be late game since you can't buy more stats be t the mastery gives them to you). On full tank cinderhulk jungles you could get 4K HP late game pretty easily iirc so the 75 hp extra is more like mid game rather than late on a lot of tanks and if I'm playing a tanky top or jungle that wants to be safe and farm early (or at least to six in many cases) then I'd much much much rather have 75-100 more bonus health mid game and 45 less bonus health lvl 1 than have a 45 hp advantage at level one and a 75-100 HP disadvantage mid game. Oh and remember that while at 3k HP the difference is about 70 hp in terms of what they give you that isn't the whole story. You can get to 3k hp though many paths, and % bonus increases the gold value of hp/lvl seals, cinderhulk passive, and any good spent on the hp component of items. It isn't just the stat difference but the increase in efficiency (even if it is minor) that it gives to other areas, which frees up gold for other stats or artificially inflates the value of your lead if you can snowball despite the 45 HP disadvantage early.
Brimaz The King7 votesI would beg to differ that natural talent is the most useless mastery
flibitydoo1 voteseh, I've seen a good number of players running natural talent (or why else would my yasuo have 1 ap at the start of the game?)
and you get a lot of sustain out of the feast mastery anyways that the lifesteal/spellvamp isn't too valuable
BastionKross1 votesIt's not even really a choice. If your champ doesn't benefit much from spellvamp/lifesteal, it's literally the only option to get you to the next rank. You're picking the lesser of two evils, which should not happen.
And you still feel bad for wasting five points in it because watch out, you have an extra 5-6 damage (after base resists) at level 18! Lame.
Demon King Maou6 votesRip sion S5 - Late season 6 Your Hp scaling W shall be missed
disregardable5 votesOh my gosh, they finally buffed the last whisper items. I never thought I'd see the day.
Zero Skill Tank4 votesIt's a very bad idea, without appropriate nerfs to other ArPen options... I mean Youmuu's barely got lovetapped and BC wasn't even touched.
I don't think anyone wants to see MF with GB, BC and new Dominik's... [zombie-nunu-bummed]
Wizardavar2 votesThats the whole point of the change, Riot want to optimize other AD items so they wont get outclassed by Youmuus's and BC (Lucian(
Zero Skill Tank6 votesBringing other marksman to Lucian level is not the way to solve Lucian's issue...
I is Illiterate3 votesIt's an early game mastery, similar to runes. Taking hp seals gives 72 hp, so 45 more from a mastery is fine with me. Especially on aggressive tanky supports who all-in at level 2.
Catastrop3 votesI really don't see how people can say current Vet Scars is worse, this is a meta based around how well you do early-mid game, 45 hp can actually make a difference. If you want late game scaling, then Vet Scars isn't the mastery for that.
SettDownShutUp3 votesI'm just gonna be real. I play mundo to get the max amount of health possible. That's the only reason I'd love to get the 4% one back.
VladimirSnakeyes2 votes[deleted]
DREADN0UGHT3 votesBut it scales into absolutely nothing past lvl 2.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesAnd my friends wonder why I said tanks get nerfed harder.
Mister Support2 votesNOTE: Veteran's Scars is meant for early brawlers looking to get a lead with lvl 1-6 skirmishes. Since in the midst of a fight, you won't be regening up to 50 extra health with just one potion or natural regen (unless you have regen in your kit in that case you aren't a typical brawler). Meanwhile Runic Armor is meant for sustainers and late game scaling tanks.
Illazuel2 votesagree. So many things riot does are like this. Including champion selection. Example: you want to play zed but he is picked or banned? play fizz instead. Or if you are really desperate, pick yasuo.
INoble KnightI2 votesFunny how all the champs you link are all powerful champs who could most likely use Runic Armor and be better for it.
Dengeden1 votesThat explains the 55+% winrates it gives them.
INoble KnightI2 votesyou're making false correlations bro
Dengeden1 votesI didn't say that Vet's Scars are the sole reason for their winrate. I merely meant that it's improbable their already highwinrates could rise even further with Runic Ar.
INoble KnightI1 votesConsidering Runic increases healing received and shields by 8% I think it wold definitely help
Dengeden1 votesSo their winrates'd get even more absurd, yes?
ntbcool1 votesthe reason most of them aren't using the other option (forgot its name) is because it is completely useless for them.... For some champions it's a lesser of 2 evil choose.
