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Slows and mobility, why not have slows root if they exceed a certain cap ?

YOU BEEN WARNED··60 votes·4,343 views

Slows already stack with a deminished rate, they are widely available from 10% (LeeSin & Shaco E rank 1) to 65% ( MissFortune & Skarner E rank 5 )

There are champions with stronger slows like Thresh R ( 99% ) Braum Q ( 70% ) Nasus W ( up to 95% rank 5 ) but they are rare in general and can have special tweeks as needed.

What if, when a champion is slowed for above 75% they are rooted for half the remaining duration?

That seems like an amazing solution to mobility creep which does not fk over immobile champions at the same time, especially because of the availability of tenacity.

So when Velkoz slows a target with his rank 3 Q [1.5s duration], then Ashe follows up with Frost Shots, the target is rooted for 0.75 seconds, consuming Velkoz 's Q debuff.

-_-

Edit 1: the most straightforward way to give counterplay for massive slows like Nasus & Zilean is not allowing movespeed roots to happen from a single debuff. Maintaining the 90% slows until a teammate slows the target.

-_-

Edit 2: examples of the formula's implication to clarify: Twitch casts a rank 5 W on a target, he then auto attacks the target while he has a item 3022. The calculation to determine the root goes as follows: W = 45% slow debuff, item 3022 = 30% slow debuff. 45% + 30% = 75%. 75% > 75% FALSE.

Therefore the target is slowed as on live.

another example with a stronger slow: MissFortune casts a rank 5 E on a target, she then auto attacks the target while she has an item 3025. The calculation to determine the root gives: E = 65% + item 3025 = 30%. 65% + 30% = 95% > 75% TRUE, MERGE DEBUFFS INTO ROOT. USE LAST APPLIED DEBUFF.

Therefore using the duration of item 3025, the target is rooted for .75 seconds.

-_-

Edit 3: created a post in the comments mentioning champions that can have abuse cases with the system, upvote so everyone can see :)

-_-

CLARITY: in order for players to understand and take advantage of proposed formula, a small visual change must be done.

Currently on live, when a champion is slowed they leave Yellow tracks beneath them as they walk. This formula can be further improved by changing the color of the tracks to Red when a target is "Critically Slowed", meaning that they have a 40%+ slow debuff applied to them.

This way both the slower and the slowed target understand that a root can be performed with a good slow followup.

78 Comments

Teridax6820 votes

Why not just have slows reduce the speed of dashes? One of the big advantages of gapclosers in fights is that they grant temporary immunity to most kinds of CC, and having crowd control affect them as they would normal movement would allow champions dependent on their own crowd control to use it more reliably. Stacking slows into roots would give anyone with soft CC the ability to transition to hard CC, which has a completely different set of gameplay implications (soft CC only reduces movement, hard CC denies movement options outright).

draqxqard3 votes

I think what you mentioned is a good idea, but it will have to slow speed of dashes significantly for it to be meaningful counterplay.

I like both ideas a lot, slightly leaning towards the root because well; screw mobility creep.

If the slow -> root cap was reduced to 65%, nerfing outliers. It would be a better option in my opinion considering the difficulty of intentionally conducting a root because of the required calculations and the live version of slow stacking being very intolerant of slow improvement.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

{quoted}

I like both ideas a lot, slightly leaning towards the root because well; screw mobility creep.

More like "screw Master Yi and Fizz"

Oh wait.

MasterYi "CANNOT BE SLOWED"

draqxqard4 votes

I think Riot should make it that he still has slow debuffs applied to him, he just ignores them ( for rooting purposes ).

By the way laser turrets actually slow MasterYi during his ult right now.

Jesus is Savior1 votes

{quoted}

I think Riot should make it that he still has slow debuffs applied to him, he just ignores them ( for rooting purposes ).

By the way laser turrets actually slow MasterYi during his ult right now.

It would still be a huge nerf when his ult wears off, because his "mobility" (Q) is also his damage, and going untargetable is the only way he stays alive.

And I wasn't joking about Fizz. He's already been nerfed into oblivion. Slows "rooting" him and preventing him from going untargetable would gut him.

mi ramfan4 votes

Doing this requires a ton of animation work, isn't visually clean, and just makes the game clunkier without much actual gain in terms of counterplay.

I mean, let's say J4 is ulting you. Do you really think that slowing him mid gap closer will make a difference in whether you live or die? He's still jumping on top of you regardless of whether he's slowed or not, it just takes like 3 frames longer and looks jankier if you slow him mid jump.

Gap closers are so fast in general (in fact, that's the freaking point of them, they're faster than walking) that reducing their speed with slows would require an incredible amount of skill to do on reaction and only slow them down by a few frames. All this change would do is make the game clunkier without actually solving the issues you're unhappy with.

Teridax685 votes

I agree, having slows affect dashes would require dash animations to be fluid regardless of their speed, but then again, we have attack speed and movement speed in the game, both of which affect character animations, along with dashes that already scale with movement speed (on Malphite and Yasuo ). I also think that would offer valid opportunities for counterplay. Suppose you dash through a pool of Mega Adhesive or Glacial Storm: right now, you'd dash through them as if they didn't exist, but with the above change you'd be affected by the slow as you'd pass through it, which would reinforce the role of both those objects as persistent zones of crowd control. You'd be able to use the extra time offered by a slowed dash to jump out of the way (if they're dashing towards you) or catch up to them (if they're dashing away from you). I don't think Cataclysm is a good counter-example to this because JarvanIV is immune to crowd control while using it anyways. By contrast, Kalista would be a great example of how such a change could allow for more consistency: right now, her infinite dashes allow her to completely ignore slows when in effect, which makes her a pain to deal with when you're a kiteable champion with only soft CC (Olaf, for example). Having slows affect her Martial Poise would allow for CC to interact better with her, and offer low-mobility champions more opportunities to catch up to her.

In the end, gapclosers are basically another form of movement with a few cool bonuses (you get to move over walls and sometimes other units). Temporary CC immunity shouldn't be one of those bonuses, especially since it's applied pretty inconsistently (why is displacement the only form of crowd control that affects dashes?). Slowing someone mid-dash should offer feedback immediately, rather than after the dash ends, and would reduce the stigma of dashes as get-out-of-jail-free cards in fights against less mobile opponents.

Rikari13 votes

I once hit a Riven with a Thresh box with item 3116 and max rank Ashe used her auto attacks. They told us that they were at 1 move speed. They dashed away.

DeusVult2 votes

I highly doubt that they were actually at 1 MS

MS has a soft and hard cap in both directions. you could have 350 base MS and get a 100% MS increase. But you won't have 700 MS; it would hit the soft cap, and get reduced, and then hit the hard cap, and get reduced even further.

Same goes for slows. It will reduce you MS, but you will never see anyone go below ~80MS. And, I'm pretty sure that multiple slows stack multaplicitive, not additive, so its not 70%+15%=85%. Its 70%*1.15= 80.5%

Still funny tho. Especially mobility creep item 3070 Ashe item 3070

YOU BEEN WARNED13 votes

For the sake of measuring effort to applying the system into the game, I am researching champions that can take unforeseen advantage of it.

Cassiopeia W + ult can root for 1 second. Might need a nerf.

Lulu has an 80% slow on her Q, might need a nerf. It is worth noting the system should be slow exclusive, polymorphs and fears for example slow the target however are ineligible for the "Critical Slow" system.

Maokai E + Q will root for .75 seconds once Q is rank 2. Should be nerfed.

Nasus W slows for up to 95% late game, many people brought up that he can buy item 3025 and root for .75 seconds every W cast. Might need a nerf.

Nunu E + R will root the target for 1.5 seconds max. Imo that sounds like a cool interaction that gives nunu the ability to reliably hit 1 target with his ult, but generally I think his R AoE slow might need a nerf.

Sejuani & Kassadin E slow amount values reach high amounts causing potential roots to be easier than they should be. Might need a nerf.

Talon can E -> W to root the target for 1 second. It sounds cool, but should probably be looked at.

Thresh R has a 99% slow while he has another 20->40% slow on his E. Will definitely need to be changed.

Xerath W empowered slow rank 5 is 80% decaying to 10% over the duration, it's good to have it monitored.

Zilean E slows up to 99% rank 5, might need an adjustment.

Exactly 11/124 champions might have abuse cases on their abilities due to this change.

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

If it makes balancing the formula easier, it could be released without synergy with items to keep things simple.

Yorukin8 votes

If this did get implemented, I feel it would be best if you needed at least two champions, not two slow sources. With a high-rank Wither and an Iceborn Gauntlet, Nasus could simply W someone and AA them and suddenly they'd be stuck. Not to mention the abuse cases with Rumble, whose lack of hard CC is one of his main draws (and the reason I almost always get Rylai's on him).

Relying on an ally to synchronize it would reward teamwork and not just slow-stacking in your build.

thinking man7 votes

This means you have to nerf every single high uptime slow.

YOU BEEN WARNED7 votes

Looking at previous hard CC balancing standards, the longest a hard CC skill allowed is 2.25s ( Fiddlesticks & Rammus ) with the exception being Morgana's root, 3s.

To beat the maximum allowed number, you need a strong slow that lasts 5 seconds because it's duration will be cut in half; resulting in a 2.5 root.

I already mentioned a few will be outliers that may need tweaks such as Nasus and Zilean, however very few high uptime slows in the game have a long duration.

Remember item 3009 will reduce the amount of slow, thus negating cases where a target should have been rooted.

thinking man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mjUuA4xq,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-12T04:58:07.258+0000)

Looking at previous hard CC balancing standards, the longest a hard CC skill allowed is 2.25s ( Fiddlesticks & Rammus ) with the exception being Morgana's root, 3s.

To beat the maximum allowed number, you need a strong slow that lasts 5 seconds because it's duration will be cut in half; resulting in a 2.5 root.

I already mentioned a few will be outliers that may need tweaks such as Nasus and Zilean, however very few high uptime slows in the game have a long duration.

Remember item 3009 will reduce the amount of slow, thus negating cases where a target should have been rooted.

What about Ashe who could essentially perma-root since she applies it every auto attack?

YOU BEEN WARNED9 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mjUuA4xq,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-04-12T04:41:24.754+0000)

What if, when a champion is slowed for above 75% they are rooted for half the remaining duration?

Ashe 's rank 5 Q slow is 35%, you need allies who can bring the slow value above 75%.

thinking man1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mjUuA4xq,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-12T05:04:30.735+0000)

Ashe 's rank 5 Q slow is 35%, you need allies who can bring the slow value above 75%.

What if she builds Frozen Mallet/Iceborn Gauntlet?

You have to eliminate ever single abuse case.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

I will explain the calculation method in the original post and call it Edit 2.

Regardless, I have thought of this. It will not be an abuse case.

35% + 30% = 65%, less than 75% therefore root rejected. applied as slow.

Champion Skin7 votes

I think something else interesting would be some slows which got stronger the further the target moves from the place they got slowed (maybe have a pole or something to mark where they got hit by the slow though it isn't really necessary I guess)

This means less mobile champions would be punished less by the slow then more mobile champions (since the less mobile champions are less likely to actually be able to move far away from the starting location)

Daedalus8716 votes

Because some slows are meant to severely slow and not root. If Riot wanted Thresh to root enemies, they would have made his ult a root.

YOU BEEN WARNED6 votes

Well historically mobile characters have been bullying immobile ones more and more every champion release. RekSai Kalista Azir Gnar even the supports have mobility spells Thresh Q W Braum W Bard E.

A 99% slow doesn't mean nearly as much to a mobile champion as much as it does to an immobile one. However roots put them at an equal footing, which should be the implication of a severe slow.

Daedalus8711 votes

But a root does mean more to immobile champions than mobile ones as well. A mobile champ can just use their mobility to catch up/escape after the root ends while an immobile one is just as screwed.

Meanwhile, does it trigger at 75% nominal slow or 75% effective slow? I mean, the current formula is some like Effective Slow = 1 - (1- Strongest Slow)(1-0.35Slow2)(1-0.35Slow3)*... While Nominal Slow = Strongest Slow + Slow2 + Slow3 +... Also, this is ignoring things like how to account for MS boosts (percent and flat), slow removals, and what to do with self slows that would make this difficult to implement consistently.

Anyways, I think that there should be a distinction between slowing someone and rooting them.

YOU BEEN WARNED3 votes

The formula consumes the debuffs to create a "Rooted" debuff. For an immobile champion, they can escape using movespeed or escape due to the lack of CC [ it was consumed to create the root ]. A mobile will be forced to sit down, denying them usage of the gapcloser until the duration expires.

Proposed formula ignores effective slow, it works by checking percentage values on debuffs and adding them together to determine whether they're enough to forge a root or not.

Currently, a slowed target shows yellow lines below them to indicate that they're slowed. I suggest that red lines be shown below the target if they're critically slowed ( 40%+ ) for the sake of ally synergy to form a root.

Daedalus8711 votes

So for some reason, I'm not seeing why roots would effect a Kassadin more than a Mordekaiser because after the root ends Kassadin will just flash away 5 times, while Morde will struggle to catch up or get away.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Because an immobile character like Mordekaiser usually has utility or stats to defend himself for a short duration. A long duration slow really, really screws immobiles over.

Think of Udyr/DrMundo vs Ashe.

Now think how much they care about Zyra E. ( Udyr usually has a item 3172 and DrMundo has built in tenacity )

Now back to the Mordekaiser case.

After being rooted, mordekaiser can W on a minion/ally behind him to gain movespeed for escape. If mordekaiser was continually slowed [ as on live ] he would be continually slowed, heavily hampering his movespeed.

Which is pretty unfair.. Considering summoner 6 can be nullified the same way.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dRFKy8Ea-daily-reminder-ghost-needs-to-have-slow-resistance-added-to-it-during-its-activation

Daedalus8711 votes

Okay, but Ashe will still permaslow champs with the occasional snare. Some team comps would actually be capable of perma snaring champs.

TenSlashTen3 votes

nasus becomes the most broken top lane in the game. lol

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

I have already explained Nasus & Zilean are some of the few special cases where tweaks should be made, but lets assume no tweaks were done.

What does Nasus do?

ACTIVE: Nasus ages his target, Slow icon slowing their movement speed by 35% for 5 seconds. The target's attack speed is also slowed by half the amount, initially slowed by 17.5%.

The slow increases over the duration.

Up to 47/59/71/83/95%.

Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11.

That means the target will be slowed for 35%~70% for a short while ( a second? ) then rooted for 2s because 4 seconds/root = 2.

Guess who does it better ?

Fiddlesticks.

ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks terrifies the target enemy unit, applying Dread.png Dread and causing it to turn and Fear icon flee for a duration.

Duration: 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25

Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11.

So that's the same cooldown, if both build CDR it will give the same result except fiddle's CC is better. But nevertheless, this isn't the intended reason of the formula and such Nasus should be tweaked as needed.

Wasabo2 votes

wait so if an ashe auto attacks with Q and a twitch also autoattacks with a frozen mallet, target is rooted?

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

Ashe Q slow at rank 5: 35%

item 3022 slow on ranged champions: 30%

35% + 30% = 65% , the system will reject the root proposal. The target will be slowed as normal.

If Twitch throws his rank 2 W in after that though.. ( as an example, it can be any rank because you just need to pass 75% )

65% + 30% = 95% , the system will consume the debuffs and create one based on the last applied debuff duration. ( Twitch W, which is 3 seconds )

Target is rooted for 1.5 seconds. Rinse and repeat!

Wasabo1 votes

So what if Nami used her E on Twitch, Ashe auto attack the target with Q, Twitch auto attacked with Nami's E, and Miss Fortune autoattacked with Frozen Mallet? Isn't that abusable that you can root so many times with just autoattacks? Also, are you calculating time by just converting every second the target is slowed over 75% into a root? So what if Lulu Q and Nasus used Wither? Wouldn't it be very on and off?

Champion Skin4 votes

Well for one there is a big difference between a root/snare and a stun in that you can still use abilities and fight back (if you are in range to do so) And some champions... well Jarvan can still run away even when he is snared/rooted because he can still use E + Q

Blitzidious1 votes

{quoted}

wait so if an ashe auto attacks with Q and a twitch also autoattacks with a frozen mallet, target is stunned?

Re-read the post, and pay attention to detail.

l Main Renekton1 votes

You can't flash out of a snare. That'd be beyond ridiculous, even when you're hyper-slowed in a teamfight, could you imagine not being able to get out? That'd be just stupid. It doesn't make sense to put it in.

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

summoner 1 item 3009 item 3111item 3222 slow resistance masteries, use gapclosers before too many slows are applied.

Besides, the majority of roots will last less than a second. You shouldn't freak out until it is released or tested.

Veigar Ahri Rengar Sion Ryze

l Main Renekton1 votes

That makes holding your flash such a huge risk. A HUGE risk. Because if you don't pop it quickly enough, you're snared and can't get out. That just makes getting caught out even easier than it is now, and makes baiting easier, and it all around just makes the game unhealthy.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

How does it make the game unhealthy? I understand mobile characters are supposed to be squishy and that roots lasting less than a second can get them killed in an outnumbered situation, but are you supposed to be messing around when you're outnumbered or out of position?

Gapclosers already act as "get out of jail free" cards, with the proposed slow debuff evolution mechanic you have champions with slows pose more danger to you when debuffing you together ( teamwork ).

Just don't attempt crazy 1v2s if you're not sure of the outcome, dude.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

because some champions have abilities that take away slows (Garen and Lucian). only gangplank has the ability to take away snares.

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Lucian 's was removed.

Garen 's case would give incentive for enemy champions to slow him more, buffing tank Garen since he's drawing aggro away from his allies.

It actually gives him more counterplay opportunities as he can count on his innate tenacity to deal with the short slows, and to time his Q when the hard slows come in.

AFK Push2 votes

In no way is this buffing Garen. You can't say that Garen would be buffed in an environment of super slow stackers, he can't Q forever son.

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

In no way? Lol.

I said this buffs tank Garen. The one which build item 3083 + item 3065 + item 3068 instead of item 3071 item 3035 item 3142 item 3031.

Focusing multiple of your now valuable slows on a tank allows the high damage mobile champions on his team to destroy you, because your spells are now on cooldown.

Garen should Q when he reaches the "Critically Slowed" stage to avoid roots. Basically, slows didn't change. It's just that they can evolve to roots now when lumped together. ( which gives Garen the opportunity to get rid of them before they evolve, or save his Q for when the slows are on cooldown )

Because remember, while roots are strong. They require at least 2 slow sources to form, which means 2 less slows to worry about for Garen .

AFK Push1 votes

I'm just saying, when you are technically buffing soft cc in general, it will still make it harder on garen. People will be playing even more champs with slows yadda yadda. Meaning that they could force his q with something like a Wither then hit him with everyone elses slows etc.

D0MINATING1 votes

I don't really like the sound of this in all honesty. Think about it, if a Nasus slowed you with a maxed-out Wither, you will be rooted all the time! Also if a jungler came to gank and the jungler and your opponent have a slow that goes over the cap, it might be a guaranteed kill for them! Having this feature just seems to overpowered!

YOU BEEN WARNED6 votes

I mentioned in the post that Nasus is a possible abuse case that might need tweaks.

I have calculated the CC provided by his wither in a comment below, I'll copy paste it for your convenience.

I have already explained Nasus & Zilean are some of the few special cases where tweaks should be made, but lets assume no tweaks were done.

What does Nasus do?

ACTIVE: Nasus ages his target, Slow icon slowing their movement speed by 35% for 5 seconds. The target's attack speed is also slowed by half the amount, initially slowed by 17.5%.

The slow increases over the duration.

Up to 47/59/71/83/95%.

Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11.

That means the target will be slowed for 35%~70% for a short while ( a second? ) then rooted for 2s because 4 seconds/root = 2.

Guess who does it better ?

Fiddlesticks .

ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks terrifies the target enemy unit, applying Dread.png Dread and causing it to turn and Fear icon flee for a duration.

Duration: 1.25/1.5/1.75/2/2.25

Cooldown: 15/14/13/12/11.

So that's the same cooldown, if both build CDR it will give the same result except fiddle's CC is better. But nevertheless, this isn't the intended reason of the formula and such should be tweaked as needed.

Again, very few champions like Nasus & Zilean may be able to abuse this feature and they should be nerfed as necessary. The majority of the roster will be fine.

ThePlasticSpork1 votes

The answer is simple.

If Riot wants a champion to be able to root people, they give them a root. If they want them to slow people, they give them a slow. If Riot wanted Nasus, Thresh (Thresh here is particularly problematic, because he already has 2 slows in his kit), and Zilean to be rooting people, they would've given them roots.

Riot has also explained previously that slows are a good way to add power to a champions kit with a low chance of making that champion overbearing. If slows could suddenly root (and thus were made more powerful), they would have to retune and rebalance so many champions around this new mechanic that it just wouldn't be worth it.

YOU BEEN WARNED7 votes

This is not a champion scale problem, this is large scale system of abuse. Many champions existed in the game prior to the mobility creep problem Anivia Ashe Janna Cassiopeia DrMundo Gangplank MissFortune Nunu Olaf Singed Etc.

Those champion with persistent slows either bullied a class really hard that they couldn't be played against them or need to land skillshots ( which are countered by mobility ) to stick to a target.

The proposed formula solves the latter issue. Currently Anivia DrMundo Olaf for example, slowing a mobile character like Lucian Kalista Leblanc Gnar Ahri Fizz Azir is irrelevant as they will simply dash away.

Many champions have slows, the slows are rendered useless because of the way mobility works. Meanwhile immobiles die when they are severely slowed. Giving a root without a good condition with meaningful counterplay is not something Riot wants. This is why the roots require 2 slowing debuffs, remove the debuffs and apply half the duration.

Very few champions will be outliers and that's fine. Had there been many champions with slows above 75% or more than 1 slow in their kit, the effort would not be worth it ( I doubt there is more than 10 champions like that in the game ). However that is not the case, the solution is at hand and should be taken advantage of.

CoolKnightST1 votes

Wouldn't this make item 3116 OP??

YOU BEEN WARNED5 votes

Not really, but it does make it better.

If you're thinking that Ziggs mid + Vladimir top will root enemy teams because of it, that's not the case.

item 3116 debuff doesn't stack with itself and so it would count 30%+0% = FALSE, APPLY REGULAR SLOW FORMULA.

pro crastinat0r1 votes

A slow is a slow not a root. This a complicated solution to a simple problem. The true counter to mobility is point and click abilities, which are being systematically removed from the game. Reverse this process and League of Mobility is countered. GG2EZ

YOU BEEN WARNED4 votes

Riot don't like those, however this solution has a lot of counterplay, strategy and skill/teamwork involved.

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