Spell Vamp [Rework Suggestion]

Stacona·Sep 4, 2014·2 votes·6,055 views

So Spell Vamp is still going to essentially do the same thing of heal you whenever you deal damage with spells (abilities, summoner spells, and active items that deal damage).

So here is my suggestion for Spell Vamp (which will benefit sustain damage mages and low cooldown mages the most):

NOTE: Base numbers start at level 0.

New One Point Mastery in the Utility Tree: Damaging spells heal for 1.5(+0.25 per level)(+1%AP)(+1%Bonus AD) health. Double this amount for non-damage-over-time single target spells. NOTE: This can grant 3% Life Steal as well.

Rune Spell Vamp (Spell Vamp Quints): Damaging spells heal for 2 health. Double this amount for non-damage-over-time single target spells.

Lower Tier Spell Vamp (items like Hextech Revolver): UNIQUE Passive "Spell Vamp": Damaging spells heal for 2(+1 per level)(+3%AP)(+3%Bonus AD) health. Double this amount for non-damage-over-time single target spells.

Higher Tier Spell Vamp (items like Will of the Ancients and Hextech Gunblade): UNIQUE Passive "Spell Vamp": Damaging spells heal for 3(+1.5 per level)(+5%AP)(+5%Bonus AD) health. Double this amount for non-damage-over-time single target spells.

~ Stacona

EDIT: Secondary Idea:

Rune [for each quint]: Damaging spells heal for 3 health. [no cooldown]

One Point Mastery in the Utility Tree: Spells that deal damage to an unit will heal for 1(+0.5 per level)(+2%AP)(+2%Bonus AD) health. 1 second cooldown. +3% Life Steal.

Lower Tier: UNIQUE Passive "Spell Vamp": Spells that deal damage to an unit will heal for 3(+1.5 per level)(+7%AP)(+7%Bonus AD) health. 1 second cooldown.

Higher Tier: UNIQUE Passive "Spell Vamp": Spells that deal damage to an unit will heal for 4(+2 per level)(+10%AP)(+10%Bonus AD) health. 1 second cooldown.

55 Comments

RiotRiot ReinboomSep 5, 20145 votes

What are your goals with this idea? What problems are you trying to address and how do you see this change solving those problems when compared to the current system?

ThryaleSep 5, 20143 votes

from the looks of it, the suggestions seem to be to make spell vamp the opposite of what it currently is. A way for aoe mages to heal up off of creep waves just like the adc's can heal up off of creep waves with some life steal.

Personally, I think that the objective (allowing mages to heal up off of waves between skirmishes) is a good idea. The particular changes... eh, meh. But I don't really find it fair that the adc's can buy 10-20% life steal and be able to heal up 50-70% of their hp from one creep wave during the mid game, but mages with 20-30% spell vamp can hardly eek out 20-30% of their hp on a creep wave.

Now, obviously there are a few mages that would abuse a spell vamp system designed to let you heal up off of aoe spells (looking at you swain, mord, vlad, cass) but over all I'm confident riot will be able to iron things out with some good brain storming.

StaconaSep 5, 20141 votes

Well i do want this spell vamp aimed at hyper mages that do have sustain damage, and a lot of them are aoe focused too (also to nerf akali's over the top sustain, but still allow her to buy gunblade effectively) i am find with vlad and morde benefiting from the change but i feel those two champions will have an equal affect of how spell vamp works on them now- where as the malzahars, azirs, cassiopeias, potentially karthuses, anivias, and the like will highly benefit from spell vamp- all these hyper mages that have sustain damage somewhere in their kits---

again, spell vamp being bought on more champions and on hyper mages is the main goal of my idea - some tweaking can be done like the spell vamp is reduced by armour or mr based on what damage source the ability does i.e. Glacial Storm deals magic damage so the heal is reduced by the units' magic resistance and user's magic penetration will bring up the heal again--- for a physical damage example like kha'zix's Q the spell vamp would be reduced by the target's armour and the heal can be up'd again by building armour penetration--- whereas true damage is uncounterable (like smite and vel'koz's passive) so the heal cannot be reduced off of true damage spells

i don't think swain will benefit from spell vamp since he should build other items to abuse his ultimate the best

SayathSep 5, 20141 votes

Suddenly the heal is dependent on damage being dealt again (reduced by armor / increased by armor penetration)? A very important design value is stripping a system of unnecessary complexity. A flat heal should exactly be that: flat, independent of damage. It suddenly being affected by armor seems very counterproductive and unintuitive.

StaconaSep 6, 20141 votes

it wouldn't be damage dealt- just based on the target's armour/mr and the user's magic pen/armour pen-- but yea, it most likely will not be needed, and should not be in the game to keep league simplified- especially since you can counter it with morellos (and if riot ever fixes the issues with executioners calling) as well as some other spells and abilities

SayathSep 6, 20141 votes

Grievous Wounds is an archaic mechanic scheduled for removal. Given the problem it creates for the reworked Soraka, Morello has hinted at this. So I wouldn't rely on it.

StaconaSep 7, 20141 votes

considering removal of grievous wounds is an extreme mega alpha idea right now it can easily not happen--- i want them to remove Flash first before removing grievous wounds

SayathSep 7, 20141 votes

Flash creates gameplay opportunities, so called meaningful choices. While it prevents summer spell diversity, it creates the cool #LCS-Plays Riot highly likes - and so do the players as well mind you -. Hence, it being ever removed is highly highly doubtful.

MarthianSep 8, 20141 votes

Flash going away is very unlikely to go away though. With the huge mobility creep as of late, those that have no mobility NEED it to work in the current meta.

StaconaSep 8, 20141 votes

It isn't needed though, i already not use Flash on champions with no mobility spells- All Flash is doing is making players toxic, why keep something in the game that only brings out the worst in people?

SayathSep 9, 20141 votes

You seem to have a very unconventional - some might say even outright controversial - mindset regarding how the game works. Flash is picked for a multitude of reasons, but mainly: a) It allows unexpected initiations: Flash -> Stun b) It allows champions to escape over walls and dodge skills that would otherwise kill.

Both of these options put out a constant pressure unlike anything else in the game. When flash is down, you have to play very different compared to what's possible when it's up. For you, Exhaust / Clairvoyance might work great on Veigar. However, most players would heavily disagree and use Flash with some other spell instead.

Furthermore, I'm not understanding how Flash creates player toxicity. Players become toxic when they do not get to play the champion / lane they want, when they get berated by their peers or simply because they want to blame somebody else for their own mistakes.

StaconaSep 9, 20141 votes

First off, you do anything different, especially in NA, everyone goes ape sht because of it-- Overall, Flash as a summoner spell I am not against, but because everyone uses Flash and there is ZERO spell diversity is why Flash should be removed--- it is what Flash has become is why it needs to be removed from the game, not what it is--- anyways, there is not a point to having a spell that everyone uses because no one gains an advantage- i would like there to be two summoner spells for everyone so that games become more interesting and there is more strategy in spell choices

MarthianSep 9, 20141 votes

If it was removed, it would eliminate a ton of champions' viability.

SayathSep 9, 20141 votes

Certainly, flash is omni-present with a 95%+ pick rate. This is considered unhealthy. However, the meaningful interactions and choices created while in-game outweigh this deficit massively. Thus, flash will stay in the game, no changes planned. This is the official Riot stance which you can look up in the devblog / PAX talk on "meaningful choices".

Trinkets are available to everyone. Yet, you can differentiate your ability from the opponent by a lot of decisions: Which trinket, where to ward, etc. Similarly, flash creates very meaningful strategic gameplay moments. Just because everybody has the spell, doesn't mean it's currently available to them (Cooldowns!). Furthermore, if malphite flash + ultimate's you, having flash might not save you. You might already die in the initial burst combo.

Linna ExcelSep 5, 20141 votes

It's basically Ahri's new passive applied to all forms of spell vamp.

StaconaSep 5, 20141 votes

First off, Spell Vamp to be better worth buying than it is now

Second off, I would like Spell Vamp to aid in mages that use some kind of sustain or constant damage, with the true heal I feel like it will be more valuable on those types of mages than damage conversion to heal that it is now. Even Orianna's command attack could benefit from this, Anivia's Glacial Storm, Malzahar's malefic visions, pool, and ultimate, Karthus skittles and his E, Cassiopeia, machine gun Ryze, etc. Basically since marksmen can use sustain damage and lifesteal, hyper mages with sustain/constant damage should have a way to heal too to be on equal footing to marksmen late game scaling, especially hyper mages and hyper marksmen should scale equally.

Overall though, Spell Vamp currently is focused mainly on the health mages of vlad and morde and is too strong on single target champions like akali. My other thought process from an earlier date is lower the value of Spell Vamp to 8%(or 10%) and 12%(or 15%) respectively from 12% and 20% and remove the AoE restriction- similar to the change on spirit stone's sustain awhile back.

SayathSep 5, 20141 votes

Damaging spells heal for x (+y / level) (+z%AP) health. Double this amount for non-damage-over-time single target spells.

By shifting the system towards spell application independent of damage dealt, you decrease the gap between single targeted and AoE spells. However, you open yourself up to a significant loop hole: Damage spell count and cooldowns now dictate sustain.

A mage such as Orianna has significant cooldowns, even more so burst mages like Brand or Le'Blanc. Similiarly, Anivia's Flash frost has a CD of 12 to 8 seconds and Frostbite has a CD of 5 seconds. Consequently, spellvamp is completely ineffective on burst mages as you intended. However, I doubt that it's viable on mages like Orianna. After all, there exists far shorter cooldowns in this game: Karthus & Cassiopeia

Cassiopeia: Noxious Blast 3s, Miasma 9s, Twin Fang 0.5s (5s without poison). Karthus: Lay Wast 1s, Defile (how does your new system interact with such a spell?)

So instead of balancing spellvamp by its effectiveness on Vladimir and Akali, we balance it w.r.t. Cassio and Karthus instead. Furthermore, Akali for example, intended to function as a hypercarry, is completely balanced around having such huge sustain. Hence, even more balance work will be required. So I don't really see the benefit of your solution. It just creates a different set of problems, a different class of spellvamp users.

Beyond, I'm confused by your terminology. A "hyper mage" is something that currently doesn't exist in Riot's vocabulary. You want (some) sustained damage mages to be on par with hypercarries like Kog'Maw and Tristana? However, given that these mages are significant sources of CC by themselves, e.g., Anivia provides a huge slow field, Malzahar a suppression, Cassiopeia an AoE stun, etc., this seems unwise. Only mages that have very significant / low amounts of CC or give up large chunks of power in other areas can be considered for a hypercarry position.

For example, Akali is allowed to be a hypercarry and have substantial sustain because she directly risks her life in melee combat, having no hard CC by herself at all and only dealing single-target damage. Similarly, Karthus creates a zone of high pressure AoE damage by essentially suiciding. He's a low mobility mage with no CC besides a strong slow. In contrast, Orianna is a high pressure (lane bully), safe farming mage with a teamfight deciding AoE CC ultimate. The latter clearly doesn't need buffs when she's already constantly being played in LCS.

Having said that, let's once again discuss the fundamentals of Spellvamp:

What do you see as the current issues with the spellvamp system? Primarily, I estimate you want mages to also utilize spellvamp, not just ressourcless / energy-based characters. You want spellvamp to be a more general stat to mages, similar as lifesteal is to marksman. However, the question arises whether that is actually a valid goal. Should mages really have access to sustain? You yourself even said that burst mages in general should not. So we have to immediately restrict the set of viable champions to sustained damage mages. On that specific champion pool, should the statistic be strong early or late game? Clearly, times and times again sustain has been determined to be a negative when introduced to the early game in too high of a quantity since it reverses player interaction (damage taken) and turns the lane play stale. Hence, spellvamp should be strong late game. This should create an opportunity for sustained damage mages to provide their output longer to a fight, similar to a marksman.

I hope I've correctly identified your position so far.

Next, what should we do about the above, while minimizing fallout? That's a really hard question which we shouldn't answer presumptuously. I believe we should first identify the core problems more throughly: Locate the set of champions that are currently utilizing spellvamp, the set of champions we want to support and the impact we expect it to have. Only then we are able to make an informed decision.

StaconaSep 6, 20141 votes

Anivia doesn't only have burst, she has sustain damage from Glacial Storm

A Hyper Mage are typically those that are weak early and strong late

Anivia, Ryze, Karthus, etc. are hyper mages - Riot is trying to make Cassiopeia a hyper mage as well, Azir is suppose to be a hyper mage

I did make the spell vamp scale on champion level and bonus AD and AP in order for champions to get properly punished early and have the sustain for late game.

The curent spell vamp users and Vlad, Morde, and Akali - I am fine with these champions using the stat, but Akali is an over the top abuser and I do hope this change tones down the effectiveness on her, but it will still be strong- morde and vlad should be equal with this spell vamp and the current version. Besides those that we know will use spell vamp, i hope that this idea will have more champions buying spell vamp and possibly open up new itemization so that there can be AD spell vamp options for AD casters can get the stat too. Most important have mana mages consider buying the stat, I don't want it to be a required stat to buy every game, but I do want more champions buy the stat and possibly open up more spell vamp items and not just AP spell vamp options (but more AP spell vamp items wouldn't be bad either).

SayathSep 6, 20141 votes

I heavily disagree with Akali's spellvamp being over the top. It's that way by design. However, that is irrelevant in a system discussion. Champions are tuned by simply modifying their individual statistics: Akali already has a % Spellvamp passive, just change it if necessary.

Furthermore, you won't see a multitude of spellvamp items being brought into itemization. Otherwise, the stacked case will simply be overbearing and the single-item case be underwhelming. Spellvamp is unique for a reason. Similarly, stacking life steal is pretty much capped by the amount of items available and its less bursty nature.

Once again I ask whether the classes you describe should have access to spellvamp. Increasing diversity is a fine goal by itself, but it has to create a meaningful choice. Otherwise, we are simply replacing one optimal itemization path with another. So what's the benefit of AD casters building spellvamp? What kind of new options are created?

You yourself were very averse to see burst casters with spellvamp. However, Zed, Riven and the like do fall in the same category. So what AD casters do you want to support. To me it looks like, all of them are just that: burst casters. So what's the point of the AD ratio in the first place? To make the new spellvamp, which is supposed to be worse for Akali, a bit more Akali friendly?

Beyond, most of the spellvamp needs to be loaded into the ratio. Otherwise, bruisers will start abusing the stat (which prevented an AD spellvamp item in the first place, mind you!).

I did make the spell vamp scale on champion level and bonus AD and AP in order for champions to get properly punished early and have the sustain for late game.

Afaik, somebody below did the math and the numbers don't match that conclusion. However, numbers don't really matter in a system discussion. That's the job of live balance. We should try to figure out a useful mechanic instead. Numbers are always up for adjustments, mechanics aren't.

Personally, my advise is that if you are trying to design a system, ask more hard questions. Define your goals more clearly. Everybody wants system X to be awesome. However, this won't happen by hope alone.

Anivia doesn't only have burst, she has sustain damage from Glacial Storm

So how does your system interact with Damage-over-time spells and toggles like Karthus' E & Anvivia's R. If it gives out the flat spellvamp with every tick, it's surely overpowered, e.g. Anivia would get 5 heals if she let her ultimate run for 5 seconds without activating any other spells.

StaconaSep 7, 20141 votes

Spell Vamp is the name of the UNIQUE Passive so if it is a higher tier spell vamp and a lower tier spell vamp together only the higher tier will take affect- and two spell vamp passive, even on completely different items, will not stack- so this means more spell vamp items is just more options and you cannot actually go past the highest spell vamp tier of healing in anyway...

AD casters are the attack damage version of mages- even though right now (except perhaps pantheon and maybe zed, etc.) will only benefit from this spell vamp, new champions are always being made and reworks of old champions- anyways, more itemization options is just an idea out in the air

Passive could be restricted to 1 heal tick a second or half-second- but yea, sustain damage and constant (low cooldown) damage abilities is what this new spell vamp system should benefit the most- the current spell vamp users should still be able to fully use spell vamp to the fullest- opening up spell vamp to more champions is the primary goal, especially mana users

SayathSep 7, 20141 votes

A named Unique passive definitely disallows stacking these items. That's correct.

However, the heal certainly can't apply every second. Do you even realize the amount of healing that would provide? An average non-ultimate spell has a 6 second cooldown. 1 heal every 6 second and you want to give Anivia a heal every second on her ultimate? How is that supposed to work out? Either Anivia heals for way too much or the average ability user for way too little. So you end up with this very strange interaction with damage over time / toggle abilities. I consider that a definite drawback and I see no clean solution besides limiting the rate of heals with these spells.

StaconaSep 7, 20141 votes

the point is for the spell vamp to be for sustain healing- just like lifesteal is sustain healing- so the new spell vamp catering towards the sustain damage spells is the intended interaction - as far as numbers go, we can only know whether it be overpowered, balanced or underpowered through live gameplay testing which only Riot has access to

SayathSep 8, 20141 votes

Let X be the heal per damage application. We double it on single target spells. No further restrictions:

Calculating spellvamp / sec for **Akali **@ 18: 2X/4 + X/3 + 2X/1 = 17/6 X = 2.83 X

after all charges have been spent (3 seconds): 2X/4 + X/3 = 5/6 X = 0.83 X

Of course, you don't play Akali like that. Shadow Dance is always used in conjunction with Q. So the early sustain is unrealistic.

Calculating spellvamp / sec for Anivia @ 18 (no mana constraints): X/8 + 2X/5 + X/1 = 61/40 X = 1.525 X

Calculating spellvamp / sec for Karthus @ 18 (no mana constraints): Single target q: 2X/1 + X/1 = 3X Multi-target q: X/1+ X/1 = 2X

Karthus's q switches whether you hit one or multiple enemies to single-target / AoE.

Calculating spellvamp /sec for Cassiopeia @ 18 (live kit, no mana constraints): X/3 + X/9 + 2X/0.5 = 4.44X (assuming every e hits a poisoned target)

Calculating spellvamp /sec for Swain @ 18 (no mana constraints): 3*2X/8 + X/10 + 8X/10 + X/1 = 53/20 X = 2.65 X

Q applies damage three times in 3 seconds, each time single target. E applies damage four times in 4 seconds, each time single target.

Comparison (in X): Akali vs. Anivia vs. Karthus (single target) vs. Karthus(multi) vs. Cassiopeia vs. Swain 3 seconds: 8.49 | 4.575 | 9 | 6 | 13.32 | 7.95 10 seconds: 14.3 | 15.25 | 30 | 20 | 44.4 | 26.5

Note: Not considering ultimate for Cassio + Karthus.

We don't need testing to see the huge differences in spellvamp. While the optimal case with some champions might be unrealistic, for most of the outliers (Cassio / Karthus) I argue it comes at least pretty close.

Consequently, I don't see how this is supposed to be balanced without putting limits on the spellvamp / sec you can gain over a periode. While Swain might not be too ridiculous on spellvamp alone, together with his ultimate it surely will be.

Honestly, I feel like this mechanic's primary goal is to just buff your so called "hyper mages". We don't need to change gameplay systems for that. Achieving that is as simple as adjusting AP scaling or base damages...

StaconaSep 8, 20141 votes

Hyper is the term used to stat the best scaling types of that role - mundo maokai are hyper tanks - kog trist vayne ashe twitch are hyper marksmen - anivia cass karthus vlad morde ryze are hyper mages

also i made an edit of a secondary idea to spell vamp expanding some changes of the original idea - it was posted before you posted this reply

SayathSep 8, 20141 votes

Fine by me. However, this is not a terminology I've ever encountered in my discussions with Rioters at all. Statikk for example never refers to Maokai as a hyper tank.

Secondly, Ashe for example certainly scales very poorly. So that's not a sound definition either.

Honestly, a lot of the champions you are refering to as supposed late game powerhouses aren't really.

E.g., Tristana / Kog'Maw / Vayne are hypercarries. Cassiopeia is supposed to be a "hyper mage" after her rework. Currently, she is a lane bully at best. Please refer to the talk by the designer on PBE.

StaconaSep 8, 20141 votes

No, Ashe is best scaling marksmen in the game, she is currently very underrated- but she scales the best- Kog may out damage her later- but nothing outscales utility--- Varus is also a hyper marksmen, not an extreme in utility or damage because Ashe and Kog hold those spots so doesn't scale as well as those two, but Varus is a good hybrid of both.

Cassiopeia was originally meant to be a hyper mage like Anivia, just focusing even more on sustain damage over the burst (Twin Fangs reset in cooldown, Frostbite critically strikes)- overall they were both suppose to be hyper utility mages that function similarly (Cassiopeia and Anivia were also designed from the same person)

SayathSep 9, 20141 votes

Ashe is the best scaling marksman in the game? You realize LCS games are completely focused on late game scaling marksman at the moment and she is never picked? The dominant picks are Tristana and Kog'maw because they bring the most impact to the team.

Yes, champions are sometimes undervalued and remain hidden from the spot light until (re-)discovered. However, when we purely focus on damage, Ashe is very underwhelming. To be honest, when Riot talks about hypercarries, they only consider damage, for good reason.

A hypercarry is supposed to dish out huge amounts of damage, given the team can protect him. Furthermore, a hypercarry excellently scales with items. For example, hypercarries in DotA could 1v5 teams. In LoL, Kog and Tristana are the closest to fit that description. Ashe just doesn't. Her utility is constant. She does scale with itemization in comparison to Kog very weakly. However, that's fine. She fills a different niche, bringing utility to the carry slot. Still, she is no hypercarry and isn't supposed to be.

In conclusion, I'm completely disagreeing with you based on the Riot definition. Your definition is not the one Riot or the community at large uses. Of course, you can redefine these terms. However, you need to actually state that you did. Otherwise, people expect you to adhere to the original meaning and will heavily disagree with you because you and them are talking about completely different things.

So, what is a hypercarry to you? What statistics are relevant? What are their main points that distinguish them from other champions in their role? Maybe then i finally get around to understand what's a hypermage to you.

StaconaSep 9, 20141 votes

Hyper is based on scaling, not damage--- because then Mundo, Maokai, Amumu are completely sht late game cause they do no damage because they are tanks--- Ashe is a hyper marksman and also has the best chances for comebacks for marksmen when behind in the game, and she is the biggest playing making marksmen so she snowballs games hard when she is ahead---

anyways, utility has always been very undervalued, but always has been viable and strong- Ashe and Anivia are both hypers in their respective roles with extreme utility and are very strong in the current meta because of their scaling, they also have great wave clear-- they are very underrated, undervalued champions because they are so utility heavy and people just do not value utility so much as strong as it is and as strong as it makes these champions - Anivia i do consider as the hardest champion in the game which is why i understand her low play rate as well as players undervalue of heavy utility- you see someone that actually plays anivia and ashe they usually end up dominating because typically you main them and have many games played (Froggen the god-anivia player) and Ashe is such a play maker you could see very decisive plays that get big objectives and win fights (remember C9)

SayathSep 9, 20141 votes

Anivia was picked 3 times in LCS, banned once (overview Summer Split EU LCS). Mind you, why doesn't Froggen play this beast of a champion when obviously he had plenty of chance?

Once again, you tell me that hyper is based on scaling. Utility does not scale. Ashe is gonna have roughly the same impact independent of items when we compare her to a Kog'Maw that can melt teams. So where is this supposed scaling coming from?

Honestly, your definition does not make sense. You tell me that utility is undervalued and underrated. So Ashe is a strong champion, fine. However, why must she be a hyper marksman? You basically refer to the best in role champions as hyper. We already have a classification for that: overpowered / very strong.

The goal behind the hypercarry classifcation used by Riot is to say: This champion excellently scales with damage items and will be a power house lategame. In exchange, this champion is supposed to be very weak early / in lane. Ashe certainly does not fit this definition.

Your usage of the term "hyper" with tanks is in line with "hyper Ashe": You consider Mundo, Maokai or Amumu to be very strong tanks. Once again, the official word usage is: strong / overpowered.

KSHarrisonSep 5, 20142 votes

I actually really like the idea of converting spell vamp to flat values, rather than scaling it on damage dealt.

###Spell Vamp Issues

Off the top of my head, we have two issues with spell vamp that make it difficult to balance or allow to be viable:

Infinite and easy lane sustain
Too hard scaling, where assassins (especially snowballing) refill tons of life because they are burst oriented.

###Solution: Spell Vamp as a Flat Heal

By moving to a flat amount that doesn't scale with ability damage, we have a universal lever for tuning it to all champions simultaneously. We can introduce interesting mechanics on this lever for balance.

Implement a cooldown on spell vamp procs so that champions with low cooldown abilities aren't given an unfair advantage, like Ezreal's Mystic Shot
Complement this cooldown with a charge mechanic, where every second unused, the next spell vamp proc charges up to a cap

The charge mechanic in particular could utilize interesting mechanics to balance the risk vs. reward of sustain in lane as well as limiting its burst potential on assassins--eg. charges are gained by damaging the enemy w/ autoattacks and/or abilities.

The flat amount can then be tuned to a reasonable level early game; the scaling via AP/AD ratio can be easily tuned to control its develop into the mid/late game. Furthermore, by adding in an AD ratio, we can open the door to spell vamp on AD casters. The itemization doesn't currently exist (no specialized AD + Spell vamp item), but through masteries and runes, it may provide for interesting laning and scaling possibilities for underutilized AD casters that could be worth exploring.

###Goals

Pushing for spell vamp viability opens the door for new lane dynamics as well as late game scaling. Currently, there is a heavy emphasis on the ability to bully in lane. It may be that non lane bullies stand to benefit more from a system for sustaining through lane bully harass. Spell vamp can be a tool to compete in lane with the likes of Orianna, Xerath, Lulu, or Zed.

Late game scaling can be set arbitrarily high or low, but may in particular be most helpful to melee casters like Mordekaiser who could benefit from a way to sustain through heavy fire without entirely compromising their offensive item build. My instinct says that without complementary changes, its potential to selectively empower champions who need it in the late game is likely small, so scaling should be minimized to avoid inadvertently buffing champions who don't need it.

###Summary

Moving spell vamp to flat health...

provides a lever independent of ability damage, which makes it much easier to tune across all champions at once.

Which accomplishes the following goals:

Giving champions who aren't lane bullies a way to sustain against other lane bullies, expanding the list of viable caster champions.
Places spell vamp in a healthier and easier to balance position, which could be a springboard for future changes that, for example, may assist melee casters in the mid/late game who are typically at risk of being blown up.

Additional ideas include:

Attaching a charge mechanic to mitigate abuse by burst champions or champions with low cooldown abilities, as well as create incentive to place oneself at risk in lane
An AD ratio for eventual application to AD casters

A sample idea for the charge mechanic is to increase the rate at which a spell vamp proc charges via autoattacks.

StaconaSep 5, 20141 votes

I don't really want a charge or cooldown system for spell vamp, since I do want it to benefit more for sustain damage hyper mages more than burst mages. BUT the charge system could open up ideas for new items, that could be for an active or passive that acts like an active, but as far as spell vamp goes i prefer that it remains as a passive- i just feel that it should help out the hyper mages that have sustain damage in their kits somewhere the most and stay away from the burst types of mages since burst types should worry about one shotting their target and sustain mages should benefit from killing someone over X time which is where spell vamp i feel should be at and not about gaining a huge burst of heal from one-shotting someone and spell vamp should benefit sustain damage mages over the burst mages...

the attack damage ratio is their, despite there is no ad spell vamp options unless you count gunblade, is because spell vamp heals off of spell damage despite the source of the damage being physical, magical, or true--- but with spell vamp being a net health based on your AP/AD it can open up an AD spell vamp item since the restrictions of such item being formed now is the burst heal that a lot of AD casters would gain from it- with spell vamp being proc'd a certain amount from damage abilities instead of damage to health conversion can open new spell vamp items to the game

KSHarrisonSep 5, 20141 votes

A charge or cooldown system caters to sustain damage mages because they fire off packets of burst every few seconds (think Ryze) as opposed to all in one rotation (like Brand). Without a cooldown system, burst mages benefit from spell vamp equally as well as sustained mages, arguably better because it's immediate. That's how spell vamp is currently set up.

With my suggestion, the sustained mage will be constantly benefiting from the spell vamp, but the burst mage will have the spell vamp applied to only one of their abilities before they're spent. This forcibly pushes burst mages away from Spell Vamp. You can then do things like buff WOTA to 90 or 100 AP; in other words, Spell Vamp itemization becomes more dynamic.

NinjaedSep 6, 20142 votes

Actually... Sustain is when you want to stay in lane. You refill (partly) your health bar to be able to fight and/or farm longer, possibly leading to an advantage. If you are bursted down, sustain is rendered useless. If not, you can steadily climb up back to "safe levels" of health, even during a fight.

Now then, with this in mind...

Infinite and easy lane sustain

Does it correct this issue? Nope. It actually makes it more glaring. Why build damage when you can build tankish and have that flat heal get you back on your feet every time? You won't need to fear being killed. Think Swain, Rumble, Darius or Garen. How fun would it be with this flat heal against them? Such an easy time for them...

Too hard scaling, where assassins (especially snowballing) refill tons of life because they are burst oriented.

Burst-oriented champions are also squishy. As I have written above, if bursted down, sustain is useless. When an assassin rushes in, they're at full health. When they're combo ends, same. Then, they're out of juice and have to wait before being of use again... And that's where sustain can become helpful to them.

With your changes, they will be denied another chance at a teamfight if they ever manage to survive after unleashing their first combo. They would have to go back to fountain and heal. Also... Those tanky champions with constant DPS (I have given 4 examples above)... they are hard to kill, with significant damage over time AND they would then recover insane amounts of health.

In other words, whereas assassins were the snowballing ones (according to you), the "sustained" ones would be the new snowballing ones. Moving a problem is not solving a problem...

KSHarrisonSep 6, 20141 votes

Why build damage when you can sustain

For the same reason building tear isn't always desirable. Damage lets you snowball a match and pressure other lanes. In a teamfight, damage will be more useful than sustain. You are weaker for building sustain, but it may provide a way for some champions to get through lane, whereupon you can compete on even footing later through your kit's natural scaling.

Edit: I should also mention, I intended to make the lane interactive by reducing the cooldown on Spell Vamp procs through, for example, autoattacks. This is meant to make sustaining through lane not a passive affair (as Spell Vamp is now) and open moments of weakness. A champion who builds damage will be able to take advantage of this by securing incremental victories in lane through CS, kills, or superior trades.

Did you play against assassins when sustain was viable? Akali is a great example. They are extremely difficult to deal with because poke becomes irrelevant, leaving you little counterplay against their superior all-in. The whole point of my changes is that assassins wouldn't build sustain but damage, just like they do now. I don't see sustain as desirable on these types of champions. They excel in deleting a single target, why should they be able to do that, heal up, and then go back in for round 2? That would be broken.

As for tanky sustained DPS champions, I specifically stated that scaling on spell vamp should be kept low. If you recover 50 hp every combo rotation, it's not going to be a big deal. If you sacrificed on top of that 20 AP + DFG active by replacing your usual DFG with a WOTA, then you are actually scaling worse because your damage has decreased.

The whole point is to pigeonhole sustain as a way to get through lane, but not as a way to become unkillable later on. The tradeoff is you deal less damage, making it only worthwhile on scaling champions in weak laning phases. By limiting Spell Vamp's consistency and encouraging interaction in lane, sustain also doesn't become a free pass through the laning phase, as Vlad and Kennen's Hextech Revolver rush used to be.

StaconaSep 6, 20141 votes

Swain wouldn't get this spell vamp, he needs items to abuse his sustain, more sustain doesn't help him because he has over kill sustain already. Garen has one ability that will function with it, Rumble already buys spell vamp, Darius would suck with this spell vamp

If a tank meta forms from this spell vamp then the easy solution is lower the base heal and increase the ratio- but we cannot know the results for sure unless tested on LIVE during a pre-season

bloodmothSep 5, 20141 votes

Could i make a suggestion? allow spell vamp to heal for 60% for AOE abilities on champions. at current you need to hit 4 champs to heal more than you would if the spell was single target, making large discrepancies netween single target mages and aoe mages, this would make you heal more for hitting 2 targets, which i think is fair, because its generally dificult to achieve. you could leave it at 30% for minions.

The problem with the stat is that it is only worthwhile on champs with single target spells because of the pathetically low return on aoe, and mages tend to have abundant AOE abilities, even when they generally only can realistically manage to hit one opponent at a time.

I understand that the restriction is there to reduce effectiveness from fighting minions, but it still creates the situation where its ONLY good when you are fighting in large minion waves.

Another idea i had was making it reduce effectiveness the further your opponent is from you so that siege mages dont get the most benefit.

Personally id really like to see it usable on champs like lissandra, a low range skill spam mage that needs to expose herself to deal damage, and has no way of regenerating that lost HP from skirmishes.

WorgslargSep 4, 20141 votes

It seems like they heal far, far to little compared to lifesteal.

StaconaSep 4, 20141 votes

Might be more or the same, depends on the champion, but if you are Anivia damage a group with Glacial Storm it will heal for alot- Malzahar with Malefic Visions would grant on a lot of healing, Cassiopeia, Karthus, Azir, etc would all highly benefit from this Spell Vamp variation. I should point out, even though I did not state this, Spell Vamp should and would be halved against Minions.

But anyways, Spell Vamp still scales with your damage because of the ratios - I wanted the Spell Vamp to be strong but not over the top- i just feel like the spell vamp as a true heal would make it a lot better to actually get bought

OmnipheriousSep 4, 20142 votes

Test run with single target spell.

(1) Anivia @ Level 1 w/ 50AP, E1 (2) Anivia @ Level 18 w/ 500AP, E5

Spell Vamp Quints x 3 Spell vamp value x E ratio (1) Current 6% x (55 + (50 x 0.5)) = 4.8 HP healed (2) Current 6% x (175 + (500 x 0.5)) = 25.5 HP healed

(1) & (2) Proposed Spell vamp value x Single target modifier (2 x 3) x 2 = 12 HP healed

Current version of spellvamp heals for equal amount as proposed version at 200 damage dealt.

Will of the Ancients (1) Current 20% x (55 + (50 x 0.5)) = 16 HP healed (2) Current 20% x (175 + (500 x 0.5)) = 85 HP healed

(1) Proposed 3 + (1.5 x 1) + (50 x 0.05) = 7 HP healed (2) Proposed 3 + (1.5 x 18) + (500 x 0.05) = 55 HP healed

For single target spells, spellvamp becomes better early and worse late.

WorgslargSep 4, 20141 votes

Whereas lifesteal is relevant all game, just of less use when fights last seconds, not tens of seconds.

OmnipheriousSep 5, 20142 votes

Yeah, I don't think the approach in the OP is necessarily better than the current system. I did the basic calculations just so that people could get a better general idea on how this would affect single target spells.

Arguably, this system would improve early/mid game for mages but would be vastly inferior in the lategame once damage starts going through the roof and spellvamp stagnates. I could definitely see this type of spellvamp quint replacing 1-2 AP quints to ease early game but I doubt we'll see more spellvamp item pickups.

Mages aren't meant to sustain through fights anyway.

StaconaSep 5, 20141 votes

The proposed change is to make the stat weaker on someone like Akali and stronger / actually viable on the hyper mages like anivia (karthus is questionable because of his must die immediately playstyle, besides that it be good on him), ryze, cass, malz, azir(when he comes out), vlad has low cooldowns so still very effective on him, morde can still use cause of how his ultimate and shield works, etc. spell vamp, however, should not work on burst mages (usually considered mid game mages) like brand, syndra, leblanc, fizz, kassadin (who is considered a hyper mage, but no sustain damage), etc.

Long story short, Spell Vamp should function well on hyper mages with sustain/constant damage and currently it does not perform this role and only performs this role on a select few especially those that do not use mana like vlad, morde, akali, etc. (even though i am not against these champions using spell vamp, i do want the stat to be opened up to more champions and possibly weaken akali's use of it because she gets too much spell vamp currently)

OmnipheriousSep 5, 20141 votes

I can definitely see spellvamp still being good, my apologies if I seemed dismissive. I understand where you're coming from and there's definitely merit to the idea.

The way the proposed system works would definitely benefit these 'hyper mages'. I should clarify that I have my doubts that spellvamp items would become a common pickup, it would become much more attractive on certain picks. Some current competitive picks like Syndra, Ziggs, Xerath and Orianna, could all benefit decently from this new spellvamp system.

StaconaSep 6, 20141 votes

i doubt Xerath cause he is too bursty, but orianna, ziggs, and syndra can use it because of spam Qs (ziggs minefield will be really good with it as well) but also because of how Syndra's ultimate works she can can a burst of heal from it since it applies as multiple small nukes instead of one giant nuke- it will apply as damage over time so no double heal, but still--- Orianna is considered a hyper utility mage btw, also syndra does scale really well too, so does ziggs and xerath-

anyways, i don't want it bought every game on everyone, the goal is have it more viable, especially on mana mages, and have the sustain damage hyper mages feel like they scale the same as hyper marksmen

also, ziggs and xerath may suffer a little bit from a viable health sustain option for mages because these champions are so poke focused... at the same time ziggs does benefit from spam Q's and minefield to use the spell vamp well

deadlychuckSep 6, 20141 votes

So one glaring issue with spell vamp is how obviously it's out classed by lifesteal, and AD champion can get massive amounts of lifesteal with 1 item item 3074 or item 3072 . Sure some AP champions have heals built in. Although AP items also lack any type of health per 5, or viable amounts of spell vamp, what good does it to survive an assassin's burst if they are just going to take you to 10% health and kill you once their CDs are up? I mean don't get me wrong i understand why Cassiopeia + item 3152 + + + isn't a thing anymore. Although i don't understand why it's not ok for every AP champion to have access to healing, when you have bruisers and marksmen going from 100 health to full from a single minion wave in the late game.

If riot still nerfs things to balance them, rather than go the dota route and buff everything, then why is lifesteal still so stupidly strong?

StaconaSep 7, 20141 votes

Besides the fact that spell vamp is a unique passive so cannot stack so yea 6 wotas can never be a thing- but i would like spell vamp to be a viable stat again and not something bought on three champions (Morde, Vlad, Akali--- and hopefully my idea addresses and nerfs Akali's abuse of spell vamp while still being about equal strength for vlad and morde) and sometimes two others (Kennen and Rumble)--- anyways, again, i want to open up spell vamp to more champions- especially to the mana using mages

deadlychuckSep 8, 20141 votes

obviously you haven't been playing that long, because if you would have been, you'd know spell vamp use to not be unique and use to stack Cass could stack them and heal for 300s every .5sec with her E. What i don't understand is riot's logic of nerfing spell vamp across the board for every magic damage champion in the game, rather than targeted nerfs on the champions abusing it. Akali Vladimir

Also morde doesn't my it out of scaling power, he buys it out of necessity. It's the most effective way to restore your health after using it to cast the skills, otherwise you'd just kill yourself half the time.

Also they added MP5 onto WotA, but all of the non-mana mages complained that it was wasted gold for a useless stat, but the problem was always the spell vamp not the inefficient gold value. The stat is so weak that wasting the gold becomes so much worse.

No one has a problem getting item 3078 on LeeSin or Gnar even though the mana is a dead stat, because AD is such a good stat, and you still get the extra physical damage with the sheen proc.

StaconaSep 8, 20141 votes

Wota used to be an aura item- and how aura worked was that they act like unique passives for the user and a unique aura if the item was on someone else so you could double the spell vamp was well as the extra 30 ap - and wota also used to give 25% spell vamp so you could easily get 50% spell vamp back in the days of double AP because both top and mid would buy a wota, which remind you double AP has risen once again in the current meta- triple AP with Elise jungle in the mix

i dont feel vlad or morde are abuse cases, remember vlad's q heals him- akali needs a rework because right now she can stomp in solo queue but gets raped in competitive - Akali is actually poorly designed---

Gnar you build tank tank tank tank tank - dont even think about build a damage item on him he does not need it--- lee there are a million better items than trinity for him like hydra---

and i have been playing since early season 1- i've seen the sht and meta changes over the years

SayathSep 8, 20141 votes

Regarding your secondary idea:

The ratio for bonus AD should be 1.7 times as much as for AP since AP costs approx. 21 g and AD costs approx. 36g. That is if both stats should weight equally. However, whether we should allow AD champions to leach from spells is a different matter altogether.

Allowing spellvamp to proc every X seconds, similar to Sheen / Lich Bane, sounds interesting. However, does it really put a limit to the extreme cases, evening out spellvamp between champions? It certainly reduces the Cassiopeia case, limiting the gain to once per second.

I estimate the dropping of the "doubles on non-damage-over-time single target" is intentional?

StaconaSep 8, 20141 votes

Yea, the double heal on the cooldown edit version is dropped because it will be a proc on spells most single target nukes are on low cooldowns- I just relized this spell vamp would allow Azir to heal off of turrets since the sand soldiers can nuke into turrets, besides interactions like this, spell vamp works normally like how it currently works.

Sustain damage abilities and damage over times (which fall under sustain damage) are the best abilities to 'abuse spell vamp' since they can make the most from the stat - so Kog'Mage (who is a hyper mage) will proc spell vamp every time he lands his ult (so would corki's ult and E), glacial storm, cass's poisons and twinfangs, singed's poison trail currently procs spell vamp as well, etc. will make the most use of spell vamp since the spell vamp can always be on cooldown because it procs so often

as off right now i don't see why the bonus AD ratio for spell vamp should be higher because even though ad caster are pretty bad at proc'ing life steal they are still better than mages at doing so, since the AD caster will be melee they can still buy hydra which the active would proc spell vamp since it is a damage active item and it procs life steal as well- considering it is a top tier AD item it will still get bought even with AD spell vamp options-- the AD spell vamp options should open up more customization between whether to build hydra or this new shiny item

overall, i added the ad ratio because spell vamp procs from damaging spells, not what kind of damage was dealt- i focused mainly on mages and spell vamp since that is the main class that will use the stat