Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it

SnowFall·Jun 2, 2016·127 votes·4,928 views

Blizzard, WoW, Over-Casualization, Decline over years. Ghostcrawler, Lead Game Designer of LoL now, was Lead Systems Designer of WoW once. CONNECT THE DOTS. WAKE UP, RIOT!

88 Comments

MLDzXnRRRJun 2, 201619 votes

I wonder how is WoW still alive. MMos with better graphics and gameplay died years ago...

Eevee In A JarJun 2, 201612 votes

Because it's easy. Look at some of the dumb phone games that are popular AND are p2w yet people buy it all up. It's because the vast majority are bumbling morons. But TBH better graphics don't constitute a better game. What's the point of better graphics if MAJORITY Of the times they serve to DISTRACT you from the gameplay rather than improve it? It took me several Assassin's Creed titles for me to wake up from my delusions and accept the truth.

Also Blizzard marketing strategy is pretty genius. They've also managed to turn their playerbase fandom into cultism in some cases where people will never play a non-Blizzard game. WoW is basically still alive because of an enormous fanbase behind Warcraft, Blizzard being Blizzard, and people requiring a shit easy game where you just press 2 buttons blindly and monotonously. That's what League is becoming. All the people who have experience aren't afraid to criticize League about the lack of integrity in competition but the blind cult following of League (usually players who have no business or even the right to give opinions about the rank scene as they never play rank) will drive out the outspoken players via mob mentality. Riot will too drive them out because what's about 6% of the population who already paid as much money they're probably going to spend?

Troll for TrumpJun 2, 20165 votes

"Hahaha, nerds playing League, get a life"

2000 hours in Clash of Clans

Pierce The VealJun 3, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"Hahaha, nerds playing League, get a life"

2000 hours in Clash of Clans

People who play clash of clans.

=> people

... Doubt

Earl EulrichJun 2, 201618 votes

I) he´s only one person, i doubt he has the power to screw up this game all by himself on the magnitude Riot does it this season II) WoW actually managed to turn insanly hardcore on the toplevel while providing much on a casual-level at the same time when Ghostcrawler still had been with them...i think he did a pretty amazing job back then. The thing that mostly went down some hill had been the sorta forced story-line and the fact that the community couldn´t appreciate the amazing encounters they were given, but instead watched 2xx guides even before the first wipe on the lowest possible difficulty level and then complained that everything had been "so easy"

Eevee In A JarJun 2, 20164 votes

Out of curiosity when did you first start playing WoW? Like at what point in the patch/expansion?

Earl EulrichJun 2, 20164 votes

clsoed beta - MoP, and yea . that had been a long and wonderfull journey for the most part.

TotalJerkJun 2, 201616 votes

Ghostcrawler has nothing to do with Dynamic Queue if that's what you're preying on for upvotes.

LirikJun 2, 201610 votes

i connected the dots guys ! Blizzard actuacly paid secretly Ghostcrawler a shit ton for him to destroy league, so Blizzard could start gaining back thiers fans who left them for riot !!

MeritasJun 3, 20161 votes

Sounds fair, but how exactly is he supposed to carry on with his plan? How would he destroy League?

kuzzy47Jun 2, 20166 votes

Class balance is retarded in wow and u have to wait 2 years for an expansion and some small changes and not reworks.In WoD Everyone got burst movement speed cc etc.The game is balanced around 3vs3.Want to play warrior in bgs ? gl with that its like tryndamere without the ulti. That's what i like about LoL nothing stays too weak or too strong for too long.Yes we have some dumpster champs like yoric,urgot,nunu etc but they will be reworked and there are many other viable champs. Also bgs nowdays are full of premades camping gys abusing shit like 3 healers etc.

RoodToobJun 3, 20161 votes

they were balanced for 3v3? i thought they didn't give a shit about PvP, because you know, no new battlegrounds, or Ashran _shudders _

PS, how is there no new battlegrounds or arena again for legion? or did they add one?

TahyanaJun 2, 20165 votes

Um I believe you have the timeline messed up.

WoW didn't start being crap until Ghostcrawler left.

KeevalroyJun 2, 20161 votes

WoW didn't start being crap until Ghostcrawler left.

Nah, he was still with them during Cata. What you probably meant to say was "WoW didn't enter the point of no return until Ghostcrawler left."

IntakiNineJun 3, 20161 votes

WoW didn't start its decline until the end of Cata though.

KeevalroyJun 3, 20161 votes

Oh really?

http://download.gamezone.com/uploads/image/data/1182189/World_of_Warcraft_Subscriptions.png

IntakiNineJun 3, 20161 votes

Yeah, really. I'm not talking about subscribers, I'm talking about public perception. Cata was viewed as fairly decent until the last raid which introduced a whole host of problems that never really went away. MOP was a step back in the right direction, but it lost all the ground it gained and more with each patch. SoO and WoD were the real nails in the coffin.

I don't put a lot of stock in the immediate post-Wrath decline due to the fact that WoW had reached an unsustainable peak. It was all over the news and had infected pop culture, but like every fad it passed and pop culture found a new obsession.

KeevalroyJun 3, 20161 votes

Public perception? From where? The fanatical fanboys on mmo-champion and their official policed forums? Half the guild I was in quit during Cata because they hated it, my BGs were filled with people complaining about the broken classes that Blizzard was doing nothing about, and Trade was spammed for how shit the raids were and how they ruined the world. Personally the only thing I liked about it was transmog gear. That's literally it, but I continued to play because of my stubborn hope that eventually WoW will be fun again quitting for a few months here and there until the start of 6.2 where I haven't played retail since.

RoodToobJun 3, 20161 votes

{quoted} start of 6.2 where I haven't played retail since.

But but.... mah Apexis man

KeevalroyJun 3, 20161 votes

Yeah you can enjoy your ~~meth~~ Apexis crystals all you like, meanwhile, even though it's still Blizzard, I'm feeling strangely optimistic for the possibility for Legacy servers where I can sign up for an AV that could potentially last days - holding the Dun Baldar bridge from disgusting Hordies, having WSG games that aren't timed, Twinks were alive and well without Heirloom gear bastardizing low levels, and just the feeling of getting away from League and going back to Azeroth where I belong.

And not the Azeroth where I'm just sitting in a hidden fort telling my mindless subordinates to do stuff for me since it was decided that I apparently can't be bothered to do even the most monotonous task myself.

RoodToobJun 3, 20161 votes

Lol i wasn't serious, but they haven't confirmed legacy servers yet, they're just talking with Nostalrius.

Hopefully they do though

KeevalroyJun 3, 20161 votes

Tried not to come off as serious.

Icestar1186Jun 2, 20165 votes

"over-casualization" is a word you only use when you don't want anyone to have fun. Anything with a pro scene is not "over-casualized."

Also, this?

WAKE UP, RIOT!

Makes it really hard to take you seriously.

Voluug13Jun 3, 20162 votes

''LOOKING FOR RAID KILLED WOW'' is what idiots scream.

Hint: it didnt, WoD being a terrible expansion did, and its something pretty recent, because MoP was an extremely good and solid expansion whose only fault was several months SoO.

Scary DoorJun 2, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Blizzard, WoW, Over-Casualization, Decline over years. Ghostcrawler, Lead Game Designer of LoL now, was Lead Systems Designer of WoW once. CONNECT THE DOTS. WAKE UP, RIOT!

"Over casualization" is not something I would attribute to Riot at all. They may be doing a lot of things that I disagree with in terms of the direction of the game, but it is by no means a "casual" game.

If you played back in Season 1 or before you will recall that there were (obviously) fewer champions... most of these champions were very straight forward. Many abilities were point-and-click type mechanics. Jungling and map objectives were extremely linear and there was little thought that needed to be put into strategy RELATIVE to now. Changes to the game were smaller, most of them seemed logical and, while plenty of mistakes were made, they were typically addressed quickly (with a few exceptions).

League today nearly requires a degree in Astrophysics to understand the changes that are being made. Champions released now usually have some type of niche, mini-game or crazy set of mechanics that need to line up properly to best maximize their potential. The patch notes read more like the manual for a nuclear reactor than they do a video game. A "casual" player would have a hard time understanding most of the /basics/ that League has to offer now---never mind the real hardcore mechanics. If anything, Leagues game structure caters to a much less casual friendly environment.

Let me take it a step further. To earn ONE 6,300 IP champion, you have to play somewhere around 65-70 games or so... granted that number could be a bit lower depending on winning percentage, win-of-the-day bonus and whatnot, nevertheless SEVENTY games to earn ONE champion is far from casual. Then of course there's the runes and masteries... take someone that plays games casually and try to have them fill up a rune page (which you also need excessive IP to earn) and see what happens.

"Casualization"-- hardly.

Steven McburnJun 2, 20161 votes

Our current ranked queue was the same queue that was used in normal games for 6 seasons if you count before ranked was ever added.

All they did was take out ranked 5's, made your rating show, and messed up the top 1% of the games queue in some convoluted way.

Yes, it is casualization.

Just thought I'd explain what people are talking about when they say they've made ranked casual by removing solo queue.

IntakiNineJun 3, 20161 votes

Solo queue was the most casual part of the game since inception.

RatbertJun 3, 20162 votes

How so?

It seems a lot more casual to play ranked with 4 friends than alone.

IntakiNineJun 3, 20161 votes

"Sit down and play with no organization, teamwork, or communication" is the epitome of casual.

RatbertJun 3, 20161 votes

Perhaps, but "sit down and win..." is not so easy.

Spicy RiceJun 3, 20161 votes

You can say that about any game that is against other people

Kal Vas FlamJun 2, 20163 votes

WoW was always a casual MMORPG though. I know people who dedicated their lives to it for years may not think that, but it was never a hardcore game by any means. That may be where the difference comes in - as LoL is a MOBA and tends to attract more tryhards. We'll see where all this goes I suppose.

TotalJerkJun 2, 201637 votes

There is nothing casual about 40 man raids.

StillnameJun 2, 20163 votes

I would say he is comparing the leveling experience in WoW to the leveling experience in other MMO's.

It was a lot more accessible without the grindeyness of other MMO's and the class and talent system were a lot more understandable.

The raids were anything but casual though. Especially if you wanted to manage them. Getting 40 people together with some people ready to swap to a different alt in case the fight needed it... or go back to org to swap talents for a different part of the raid.... and replacing people when their internet cuts out (which happened at least once per raid). There was a lot of time spent not raiding when you were trying to do the raids. I am glad they made a lot of the changes they did. Up till raid finder....

Voluug13Jun 3, 20161 votes

The difference is that raid finder didnt replace or affect high end raiding. Unlike DQ.

Dont compare LFR to DQ because the contexts and effects are completly different.

A Miss FortuneJun 3, 20161 votes

Wasn't the game significantly harder previously in general? Especially during Vanilla? I've heard a lot of people talking about how just trying to kill normal quest-related mobs could be difficult, whereas now you're pretty much guaranteed to never die if you actually care.

RoodToobJun 3, 20161 votes

the levelling was harder. Boss mechanics? not at all, the difficulty was coordinating 40 people not to be idiots

Pika FoxJun 3, 20161 votes

A very small subset of the game itself wasnt casual, ergo the entire game isnt casual.

TotalJerkJun 3, 20162 votes

I cite one example and you assume it's the only one?

NarsicusJun 3, 20164 votes

I played WoW since the beginning and the vast majority of it was what could be considered a 'casual' experience and you didn't need to be a top tier player to get by. It is not like everyone good enough to group together for Uldamman was a time tested player forged through the fires of arduous practice, you just had to hit stuff and move out of the way of other stuff.

The hardest part of instances and raids was getting everyone on the same page, 40 man boss mechanics often were not very complex but getting 40 people to do any 1 thing together is a pain. Hell Onyxia's infamous Deep Breath mechanic was simply 'hey, get out of the way or you are going to get fried'.

KnalxzJun 3, 20161 votes

So let's swing around by this logic right quick. I'm not on either side here but the logic you used is flawed because lol is considered a competitive game despite you spending 1-29 without any access to ranked play and even ten it being only optional which many players (myself included) have skipped over.

The competitive side of lol is optional just as WoW but that doesn't make it not that. People play nothing but bots and ARAM, they have entire accounts dedicated to it as well just like people have accounts dedicated to the casual aspect of WoW.

Just because a game does have points of casual interest doesn't make it that or vice versa. In this case of both games, it comes down to a term I think you're more then familiar with, the end game. At lvl 30 in LoL and 50 in wow, there isn't much progression for you if you aren't doing the end game content for wow's case this is obviously the exclusion of expansions.

You could not play ranked but you'd be missing out on one of the biggest parts of LoL, you could skip out on raids but you'd be missing out on one of the biggest aspects of WoW.

Just because a game gives you options on how to play it doesn't change the fact that those options exist. It'd be easier to say WoW and LoL exist outside of the standards of Casual and hardcore games but you know how people are, they love their labels so they'll remain one or the other and WoW was Hardcore in everyone's eyes until a certain expansion. ( actually don't know which one I've only played WoW recently and heard this complaint.)

So even that is a bit of evidence to the side of how WoW layers believe that the game was hardcore in it's prime. So I guess timing also needs to be taken into consideration because LoL is clearly becoming more casual.

eastcoastblazeJun 2, 20162 votes

Dont forget halo 3. Once of the most popular FPS's, very competitive ranked scene, mlg, the works, people loved it, wth normals too. People played it for years untilt reach came out. No ranked, tries to make it more casual like CoD, and it completely killed the franchise.

TotalJerkJun 2, 20163 votes

Reach was ranked in every mode, it was just invisible. There were also some competitive playlists, but nobody played them.

Serpents EmbraceJun 2, 20162 votes

If it's invisible, it's match-making not ranked.

Ranked by definition has a visible ladder that celebrates those at the top.

A game that records high scores but doesn't display them may as well not have scores at all.

SammystormJun 2, 20165 votes

Reach was arguable one of the most popular halo games. It has the 2nd most sales out of any halo game at 9.76 million. The only other halo game that beat it was halo 3 at 12.06 million. It also had the highest average online matchmaking games played per month when Bungie passed halo off to 343 industries. Basically your claim about reach killing the series was way overblown. If anything Reach skyrocketed the success of Halo 4 and that game killed the popularity for Halo 5.

http://halo.bungie.net/stats/reach/online.aspx http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Halo

Spicy RiceJun 3, 20161 votes

You shitting me? If anything, reach took everything good in 3 and made it better

eastcoastblazeJun 3, 20161 votes

You mustve been a CoD fan. Reach was a disgusting attempt for halo to steal away CoD fans. Its not halo. 1-3 matchmaking was more or less the sane and was ibcredibly sucessful

NiyumiJun 3, 20162 votes

You know, I can't fucking stand WoW with the new guy. I haven't played since the 6.0 prepatch, and before, I had played WoW for over 10 years. When GC was there? I loved the game. I had a ton of fun. When he left? The game went to shit, and was so simplified that it just wasn't fun anymore.

But hey, that's big business for you. Hard games don't make as much money, while easy ones attract morons who couldn't play before.

BITE ZA DUSTOJun 3, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You know, I can't fucking stand WoW with the new guy. I haven't played since the 6.0 prepatch, and before, I had played WoW for over 10 years. When GC was there? I loved the game. I had a ton of fun. When he left? The game went to shit, and was so simplified that it just wasn't fun anymore.

But hey, that's big business for you. Hard games don't make as much money, while easy ones attract morons who couldn't play before.

I remember when GC was pissed off and disappointed by the community when they were forced to reintroduce portals.

GC is good tbh.

Voluug13Jun 3, 20161 votes

That is because Ghostcrawler was a Mage main and fanboy. Class that get portals to every city whenever they want. And the only class to have it in the first place.

Lack of portals didnt make things harder, just longer. You had to pay 3 gold for flying and wait a boat and fucking travel everywhere if you wanted something in other continent. Not once, not twice, but every single time.