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@Riot, PLEASE rethink your approach on Cassiopeia

Canastus··56 votes·5,785 views

http://imgur.com/2EAfpGz

First of all, it's good to see you boys and girls at Riot haven't forgotten Cassiopeia entirely. However I fear the way you're trying to go with this new Cass is a VERY questionable one.

I'll try to avoid bombarding you with numbers and mathematical abstractions, but let's take a look at what we're dealing with.

PASSIVE: Aspect of the Serpent Cassiopeia gains a stack of Aspect of the Serpent for each second that an enemy champion is poisoned and for each poisoned unit that she kills. Her ability power is increased by 1% for every 25 stacks, up to a max of 375 stacks.

At 50 stacks, Twin Fang now heals Cassiopeia for 6/8/10/12/16 (+0.1 ability power) At 150 stacks, Cassioepeia gains 30% CDR At 375 stacks, the AP bonus from Aspect of the Serpent is doubled.

The sheer content you've put into that passive might seem quite awesome at first but let's remember what purpose this passive really serves. It's about restricting Cassiopeia's sheer power, one which the current one already has full access to from the very first level due to her ratios. This version of Cass literally has no early or midgame, and once she falls behind she becomes irrelevant.

It takes at least 6 (!) minutes of NONSTOP poisoning to stack that passive, the only way to acquire stacks is by killing minions or by hitting champions with your delayed skillshots - so good luck with that. I also don't see how free cdr could be good on her, it's a wasted stat which already negates the purchase of any other items that offer cdr.

The spellvamp on her E is quite pathetic and will do very little to raise her survivability. She's still terribly squishy and lacks any reliable escape-tools. You seriously underestimate the power of gapclosers - they offer a tool to instantly relocate your champion which is as valuable as the summoner spell Flash itself.

Q - Noxious Blast Provides Cassiopeia more movement speed later in the game but, in turn, deals less damage. Damage: 70/105/140/175/210 (+0.35 ability power) Movement speed: 10/15/20/25/30% Cooldown: 4 seconds Mana cost: 40/45/50/55/60 Delay increased by 0.05 seconds

This has to be among the biggest nerfs she recieved. Cassiopeia is a DPS mage, she relies on all of her abilities to deal a constant flow of damage, especially her Q when it comes to securing your lane presence. The great 0.8 ap-ratio which this ability once possessed is gone for good and the flat damage has been reduced to a laughable poke.

The mere 5% bonus on the speed buff won't make a difference since ANYONE with a gapcloser can instantly reach you before you even get to slither away. The increased cooldown makes things even worse - you can't even spam the ability anymore. And why on earth did you increase its delay without even expanding the radius of the hitbox?

Overall this is a massive punch into the face of anyone who would even consider leveling her Q first since it defines an entirely different playstyle for her. We already know how limited the range of her Twin Fang is but this literally forces her to stand in the face of her enemies to even deal damage due to how irrelevant this ability has become.

W - Miasma Now a notably more powerful slow tool but has a higher cooldown and deals less damage. Damage per second: 10/15/20/25/30 (+0.1 ability power) Cooldown: 15 seconds Mana cost: 40/50/60/70/80 Slow: 15/22.5/30/37.5/45%

The slow is laughably weak and only becomes apparent in the lategame since NO ONE is ever going to level W over Q or E first. In return you've REMOVED any damage she had on that ability. How is she supposed to melt down enemies during teamfights if her only reliable source of damage has been limited to her E? You've reduced her overall DPS massively with this change which was pretty much the only reason to play her.

With the loss of her status as DPS-queen you'd be lucky enough for anyone to pick her over Karthus who has FAR more reliable damage output and still has amazing AOE. Not only did you gut her laning phase by imposing those awful damage nerfs on her early and migame, no, you even nerfed her teamfighting ability. What purpose does she even serve now?

E - Twin Fang Is now MUCH more reliable when checking for poisoned targets and has a higher AP ratio later in the game. Also, now grants mana upon killing a unit. Damage: 55/80/105/130/155 (+0.4/0.45/0.5/0.55/0.6 ability power) Mana cost: 30/45/60/75/90 Utility: Now refunds its mana cost plus an additional 3% of Cassiopeia's total mana when it kills a unit. Usability: Now has additional checks in place to see if target was poisoned.

What you're trying to sell to us as a buff should have been in the game from the very beginning, it's beyond me what took you so long to fix the poison detection on her E. The mana-refund is the ONLY redeemable factor in this.

However she'll STILL run out of mana insanely quick if she's forced to commit. Can you calculate how much mana it costs just to land the right number of Twin Fangs to finish your opponent off with this horribly weakened Cassiopeia, especially in the early and midgame? I doubt you'll get the chance to regenerate any mana while fighting for your life.

Your attention is entirely on the enemy champion and not on their minions. Surprise, you're all out of mana while your opponent still gets to stay in lane. She absolutely CANNOT fight once her mana falls under a certain amount since the ability is never going to get cheaper unlike for the old Cass thanks to Deadly Cadence.

Not only did you lower the overall damage on this ability (it used to cap at 190 damage), you even felt like slapping a scaling ap-ratio onto it just to limit its effectiveness even further (she originally had 0.55% on all levels). This is a HUGE nerf to her early damage which pretty much makes it impossible to get that early first blood you desperately need to secure your lane dominance.

R - Petrifying Gaze Lower cooldown, but also slightly lower damage. Damage: 150/250/350 (+0.5 ability power) Cooldown: 120/110/100

Now this has to be the most unreliable ultimate this game has ever seen. Instead of improving the terrible delay, the short range or even the awful hitbox which makes you automatically miss ANYONE who even is capable of jumping onto you, you settle on a flat cooldown reduction of 10 seconds and call it a day. Oh, and you also removed even more damage from her kit. If this thing doesn't off your enemy, you are DEAD. Which will happen a LOT more often from now on.

Overall I'm quite disappointed at the way you've handled this rework. You took away so much of her power while limiting her build options massively (you NEED to build her as a glass cannon or you will deal NO damage). Her abilities leave no room for other playstyles anymore, infact she's even riskier to play now (your only source of damage being your E).

The risk/reward ratio is entirely skewed since you will instantly blow up in any teamfight and should you ever fall behind during your laning phase, you're pretty much shut down for the remainder of the game. No chance of coming back, period.

I don't see how those changes are going to raise her viability in any way. She'll be still left unplayed since there are far superior hypercarries to pick from who are also a lot safer to play as. I'm sorry to say this but there is absolutely no reason to play Cass anymore.

109 Comments

Zarkkast24 votes

It seems to be a consensus among us Cassiopeia players that this rework is going in the wrong direction. I'm gonna write a thread with some suggestions as soon as I get home.

A Superb Villain24 votes

Honestly, I'm just here to say that header image is adorable.

Flintfall18 votes

6 minutes of nonstop poison can be pulled off. Realistically (let's face it), you're not getting full stacks until around 15 minutes if you make sure you're constantly stacking it.

That said, mid game is in full swing right now, if you didn't get enough stacks in lane you're in trouble, so your concern there is valid. You should be able to just spam Q and W on jungle camps from over the wall if you're that desperate.

Now that we have full stacks (at the very latest around 22~ minutes), you get a crapton of ability power and the heal on Twin Fangs. As I quote:

The spellvamp on her E is quite pathetic and will do very little to raise her survivability. She's still terribly squishy and lacks any reliable escape-tools. You seriously underestimate the power of gapclosers - they offer a tool to instantly relocate your champion which is as valuable as the Summoner spell Flash itself.

Now, here is the scaling on that heal:

50 stacks, Twin Fang now heals Cassiopeia for 6/8/10/12/16 (+0.1 ability power)

An average AP mage build usually looks something like this:

item 3020 item 3089 item 3157 item 3174 item 3001 item 3128

That gives you 828 AP~ when adding in new passive and Rabb's without runes or masteries. Now, here's a build I would do on the new Cass:

item 3020 item 3027 item 3003 item 3089 item 3157 item 3001

This gives you 798 AP~ with the new Cass, adding in new passive, Rabb's, and Archangel. For calculation purposes let's round both builds to 800 AP.

800(.1) + 16 = 96 health each time you E someone.

I'd hardly call that weak, you can E very quickly multiple times, and with the aforementioned build you can be partially tanky and heal for more then a 100 health each cast (This rivals your sustain with Vladimir) when you count in the 22 AP and 5% multiplier from masteries.

And if dying bothers you that much, how is making her damage higher gonna compensate when everyone and their mother can apparently jump and kill Cass instantly? Nothing Riot puts in her kit is gonna change that without making you put another wall of text about ruining her identity.

With the new Q, with Sorc boots you move at 494 movement as opposed to 475. 19 MS can be the difference between life and death, but then again that doesn't really compensate for the loss in ratios/base (even with the 30% AP bonus, you still lose out on .25 AP ratios on the Q).

Remember when Riot increased MS boost on Kayle (albeit in a different format, but the result could be similar), adding additional utility to a spell can have unforeseen effects on the champion.

You're actually spot on here, the damage gets hit hard.

Magic Damage Per Second: 25 / 35 / 45 / 55 / 65 (+ 15% AP)

With 800 AP, at max rank that's 65 + (800)(.15) = 185 damage per second

Damage per second: 10/15/20/25/30 (+0.1 ability power)

With 800 AP, Cass gets 30 + (800)(.1) = 110 damage per second.

Now, in a void of numbers and circumstance, that's a hefty nerf. However, Cass can't easily reach 800 AP in her old form, the standard old build I displayed would give her 637 AP~, which would make her damage:

64 + (637)(.15) = 160 damage per second

So, the difference is 50~ damage a second, a sizable nerf to her overall power. I'd probably be up in arms about that, and there's a hard number for you to advocate for :P

Not much I had to add here, they drastically increased Twin Fangs usefullness in terms of mana regen and healing. A damage nerf would seem correct here.

Gonna go with good ole' math here again:

Magic Damage: 200 / 325 / 450 (+ 60% AP)

637 AP| 450 + (637)(.6) = 832 damage

Damage: 150/250/350 (+0.5 ability power)

800 AP| 350 + (800)(.5) = 750 damage

I originally made this post because I hate people who kneejerk react to changes (I still think you're too salty about all this) but her damage really took a lot of hits just for the fact she can rival the top sustainers with her E.

Flintfall7 votes

Ran out of room~

They took away a lot of damage from her just to tack in sustain and cdr, which I think is fun and useful, but only if it doesn't impede on her DPS fantasy.

I'd hardly go to say they trashcanned her though, they jsut changed her fantasy significantly, which I think is not fair to those who love Cass.

All I'm really saying is be level headed about this, change is good (because Cass isn't exactly in a good spot right now), instead of rejecting the entire project, see how you can improve upon it.

As for me, I've spent enough time and energy on the subject as it is (I gotta get back to the Kha'zix skin party whoot whoot!)

Canastus13 votes

Sorry but you're apparently confusing something about the poison-stacks. She needs to hit enemy CHAMPIONS with it to gain stacks, the only other way to gain more is to lasthit minions with your E. It'll take ages before you have those 375 stacks, trust me.

Also don't be fooled by the higher AP you may achieve from your passive, your ratios pretty much negate any real bonus you may gain from them compared to the current Cassiopeia. They had the audacity to lock away all of that potential for a measly reward - and that is if you ever make it to the lategame without losing the game first due to her feeding her lane opponent or the enemy jungler nonstop.

Also if you want to know what she really needs, it's a gapcloser. There's no denying it, the mobility creep has shut her down for over two seasons now. Being dependent on a DELAYED skillshot (which has recieved an increased cooldown and also requires you to stand still) will turn you into an easy target for any form of cc.

HigeR2 votes

**PASSIVE: Aspect of the Serpent Cassiopeia gains a stack of Aspect of the Serpent for each second that an enemy champion is poisoned and for each poisoned unit that she kills. Her ability power is increased by 1% for every 25 stacks, up to a max of 375 stacks.

she also gains stacks from killing poisoned units and by the looks of it, farming with E is now easier than ever. now lets say you manage to poison an entire wave and the enemy champion at once, you'd get 6-7 stacks plus 3 if you poisoned the enemy with Q, that's a whole 9-10 stacks per wave, given that you perfectly last hit of course.

The powerspikes are there in order to buff cass in different stages of the game, 50 stacks would need you to last hit at least 3 waves perfectly and poison the enemy champion during 30 seconds, not even a full minute, realistically of course you won't poison your enemy during that long at once but you can always, ALWAYS at least hit him with Q 5 or 6 times; even if your enemy manages to avoid all your poisoning, you would only need around 8 waves to reach the first point of 50 stacks, that's nothing.

As the game progresses you'll be poisoning champs more often (ganking and whatnot) and even jungling a little bit, so as the game progresses you'll be gaining stacks more often and by mid game you'll gain 30% cdr, which only means more poisoning more often FOR FREE and here's the biggest point that should be up in discussion: gold value, the gold value of Cass' new passive is HIGH, really really high, she gains spellvamp, cdr and a rabadon that grows over time and how does she earns these crazy good stats? playing right, no other champion receives such benefits from hitting their skills as cass would, think of syndra who happens to grow in power as you level up, there's nothing that'd stop her from becoming a powerhouse, same for cass as long as you play well of course.

Now I'm not saying they didnt nerf her, I'm just stating how good her new passive is, they hit her a little too hard for how much her passive would buff her but hey, she just got in the PBE, appropriate mini buffs should come her way soon.

ıYı7 votes

You have to max e first every game with this cassio,

if you are playing against a cassio would you let her freely q e her minions to get stacks?

I would hit her everytime she uses q on creeps, because she cant e when i am not poisoned. It cost so much mana too. if she doesnt use q on creeps, i can push her to tower. Goodluck lasthitting with your 5s cd e to gain stacks.

I mean its not easy to farm stacks with this mana costs and low damage. Her e will eat your limited mana soo fast early game if u are not using to last hit. This means u cant farm jungle creeps without burning so much mana too ...no more jungle camps for 10 minutes at least.

You will use twice as mana u are using and best case scenario u will deal % 20 more single target damage then before. But your aoe will be % 60 or less. And in late game team fights i doubt u will be using E effectively or on the targets u want . so you wont be a power house at all. This passive doesnt mean anything if her ratios dont go up .

mana costs should go down. Or she should get more cc or mobility or range or faster q ....

Sry for my bad English

HigeR1 votes

I think Cass should gain stacks from last hitting with E no matter if the target is poisoned or not. That aside, taking your example I think E is enough to poison a wave, you should save Q for that pesky enemy trying to harass you, if the enemy gets poisoned, you'll be gaining more stacks anyway, will you give her stacks and let yourself wither away slowly with poison?, eventually if you don't let her farm the wave is gonna be in her turret where she will farm to her heart contempt (if good of course)

We could theorycraft scenarios all day long but Cass will always ALWAYS be gaining stacks if she's any good, therefore scaling towards a more powerful version of herself. Mana is not really an issue nowadays either since Doran's ring and blue will keep you good enough, plus a Tear looks like a staple item on her now. Of course you'll run out of mana if you use your skills like crazy, every mid will have this happen to them, the thing is that Cass players are used to not run into these kinds of issues because of her current passive.

I agree that her Q should be faster and cheaper in mana since that'll be one of your main ways of acquiring stacks (you won't try to caught enemies on miasma...)

ıYı3 votes

What i tried to say was "you cant gain stacks early game easily" and i wouldnt let cass hit me i would force her to use her q to farm faster . i know e gıves stack but u cant waıt for last hit with e. You have to use your other abilities to kill minions faster. You will be last hitting for free but you will lose more mana and it will hurt you a lot early game. At some point( after tear probably) it will be easier but still your e gonna cost a lot (90 mana per 0,5 sec)

I think we are on the same page. You are thinking about playing around new conditions(positive thinking:), and i' m whining about her getting nerfed.

Linna Excel10 votes

6 minutes of nonstop poison is not going to be easy to pull of because of mana issues early on, cooldowns, and the fact that the other guy isn't going to stand around like an idiot while you poison him.

Hexs Fortune7 votes

I feel it turns her into a veigar/ nasus type. Must build stacks, doesn't really want to roam as a result etc

Solumindra7 votes

Veigar has a non ult stun, and can burst. Nasus has a super slow on target. Cass gets a slow on a Veigar stun CD and her clunky broken ult. This rework is such a joke.

Tapu Fini13 votes

"People don't like being damaged by Cassiopeia until the 30 minute mark, so we're bending all the Cass players over for one of the biggest nerfs the game has seen."

Hexs Fortune9 votes

Riot seriously overestimates the impact of movespeed buffs in league of gapclosers. Cassio will continue to be dived and killed before the movespeed advantage has any impact

Linna Excel8 votes

Cass's passive needed to be reworked. Cass's problem wasn't lack of utility but lack of mobility. Cass needed both poke/bullying and high dps because she's slow and has to build mana/glass cannon. Cass's rework doesn't fix her problems in mid and I think the passive is going to make her support even worse.

Sometimes I think the champion balance team isn't playing the same game as the rest of us or isn't on the same page as her fanbase (see my soraka rework complaints for more on that).

Canastus7 votes

Exactly my train of thought. Her issues lie somewhere else and yet they feel like creating some additional handicaps just to make her even more unplayable. This cannot end well, no matter how much they try to push this direction.

PurpleKingCrazy7 votes

While people think about damage potential, I usually think about carry potential in her aspect. While this is true that the damage has been nerfed on Cassiopeia, her way of carrying the game seems more relevant to her usual build.

Think about this: start off with a dorans ring but instead of harassing, you are farming your lane indefinitely. now that kind of farm with stack your passive via potential to carry. If left unharmed, she can reach 30% CDR in no time (or at least 15 minutes or less). In her use of farming with scaling, with the use of twin fang potential (and probably spell vamp isf she buys it early). her damage can outscale any other mage late game, especially Ziggs.

Now you're saying that her ult is the MOST unreliable in the game. This is not true. The way to use her ultimate is the AOE Cast in teamfights or if someone chases you out. You're saying that this removes more damage to her kit? Think again when she tries to outdamage you by a percentage. Remember that passive? She can build rabadons and scale additively (or multiplicatively?) with her AP. At 150 stacks, she has 6% bonus AP with 30% CDR. Yeah, that will be considered "overpowered." But at 375 stacks, she has 15% (x2) 30% bonus AP. With that massive AP scaling, she can deal even more damage than Malzahar if she so chooses.

Damage nerf on abilites? She definitely deserves it. Overall scaling with her kit? This pretty much solidifies her entity of bring down champions and being able to carry the game with her teammates. Just watch out for her poison.

Solumindra8 votes

You said it, if left unharmed. That's pretty impossible in the assassin meta since she has no escape. The nurf hurts her because she won't be able to lane against Yasuo, Ziggs, Syndra, Talon, Zed....so on. She can't compete. So instead of letting her Q still harass we have to sit under tower as soon as we pick the champion. It doesn't help her at all, and she has no way to come back if she falls behind like she can now. They need too look at the numbers again and buff the R.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I think he meant if left unharmed in mid to late game team fights. In which case, Kog'Maw would like to say hello.

I'm thinking her lane phase she should play safe, saving her ult for running away from ganks, etc. If she's allowed to farm, she can become strong.

Solumindra5 votes

She has no way to though, at least nasus can wither someone, and get a huge health boost from ult. Cass needs her Q to push back the enemy mid lane and keep them low. and the early nurf to the move speed is a joke. I would rather have current cass than this rework.

Eapenator9 votes

Any cassiopeia player will tell you that her ultimate is unreliable

ıYı6 votes

She has no cc, no escape ability. Only her ulti is giving her real cc but even its not the best.

She can deal tons of damage but she cant use that as much as she wants , she cant do anything when you are out of her q range. Thats why she doesnt have 60+% win rate

You cant just cut her damage, increase her cooldowns and increase mana costs at the same time. And they decreased the slow and gained movement speed at early ranks too.

I would be ok with removing damage part of her w for more slow or something like that but this is not the right way to make her better.

If you can farm with ryze for 30 min, he will be much more stronger than new cassio. BeCause he has more burst, more aoe, more speed and also so much tankyness to survive enemy burst so he can deal a fair amount of damage every fight.

With new cassio you are gonna be trying to farm for 30 minutes to make an impact late game if u can deal damage with your E if u cant you are done..

pWasHere6 votes

The Champ that sees almost no play at any level deserves a damage nerf?

exec36 votes

As I said in my thread on the issue the passive is just maths on top of maths. A free rabadons? You pay for that with gutted base and ratio damages across the board so it's almost like status quo. Free 30% CDR? Well not only does that gut your ability to build her in different ways but she pays for it with longer cooldowns on Q and W (let's ignore the fact that free CDR is bad design since you should just give them a lower cooldown if you want them to have a low cooldowns, I mean we finally got it scrapped on TF and Heimer and Zyra's was lowered so why are you going backwards and adding it to cass?), again almost like status quo.

I could get more behind the idea of a stacking passive if it was designed to work in combat. You know like the current passive, except it stacks by poisoning enemies, and you gain something else like say spellvamp, that would actually add gameplay you and your enemy could play around. Hell maybe if the current passive was simply buffed to 15% per stack or something it'd be less of a noob trap.

I really only wanted one thing from Cass, her E poison check to be fixed, no more, no less. Cass doesn't need changing or a gameplay shift. She has her niche, a DoT DPS mage that has the potential for multiple playstyles (focus on her poison DoT's or play around E reset DPS), they're forcing her into the latter which is just a net negative for everyone involved and creates a binary character. Also ironically it's Riot dictating how to play a champion, something they've recently said they're going to be doing less of.

I've said it so often (really, go look at previous posts of mine over the years), Cass is the #1 best designed champion in this game (imo) and these changes (regardless on whether you get them 'balanced' or not) will gut this. The passive is very badly designed, the forced shift change is in poor form and what was once a simple elegant design is now an overload of mechanics (instead of giving E a heal how about you convince everyone that Spellvamp doesn't suck). About the only bonus change that might be ok is the mana return but even then maybe a simple 'mana return on kill' would be better, I don't know why you're giving that extra 3% though maybe it has something to do with you forcing us to not be able to buy Athene's anymore, more status quo?

Man this is getting frustrating, my favorite champ in the entire game potentially going to be killed (can't go through another Karma again guys, I just can't, even if you went completely overboard I can at least understand why you went after Karma, she did need work but Cass? she does not need nor deserve this) and the guy doing it doesn't appear to want to leave PBE and discuss things with us mere peasants without PBE access. HHHNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG Sorry getting a bit mean but I just can't fathom these changes, I really can't. Here's hoping we have another Lee Sin on our hands.

Also for anyone who has played her, what exactly was changed to E to make it more reliable? The designer doesn't actually say but from random other posts it sounds like the reset happens on cast now. If that's the case then the reset CD should be upped to 0.7 to account for E's travel time, done, her big bug is fixed and her power level is preserved. Hardly difficult.

The Queen Viper2 votes

... tbh it's rather pathetic really. Also it's not like that don't have stats and info about Cass players. I'm currently holding the "most games played" for Cass in this season (1140 games) and if they would be interested what the actual Cass mains think about this, they would at least have a decency to check the stats and send a frikking PBE invite or a temporary one just so that we could have a some kind discussion ffs. But nope, no PBE account for you sir, and yes, I have sent the application.

Solumindra5 votes

Agreed, gutting Q and W is ridiculous. And not touching the R at all, besides a 10 second cooldown. I hate this as much as I hated the nida rework. And Riot still won't give us money back on skins for champs they ruin.

Rothmi4 votes

Something you have forgotten to include is now ridiculous mana issues, both from the fact that her old passive wasn't terrible considering the spam, and If Riot thinks its bad to have passives involving mana return and whatnot then what's up with the new Xerath!?

Also, why the hell is it that her E costs more than her W? Her E is supposed to be more spammable and now it costs more!

Finally, Riot doesn't understand the fact that having more AP doesn't instantly mean more damage if you have no goddam scaling! It would be like a champ had 1000 AP right out the gate but only had 0.0001 Scaling! If you want that AP buff from her passive to be effective then giver her her old ability stat lines back!

Tapu Fini4 votes

You have to lasthit with your E to have any chance at mana stability. Don't even bother harassing the enemy until you have massive stacks and 400+ ap, you do no damage.

Canastus3 votes

Thanks for reminding me, I made sure to include that argument in my post. It's pretty much impossible to fight with anyone without running out of mana now, at least until you have your Tear stacked. This is literally on Soraka tier of uselessness, another champion who's seriously handicapped by insane mana issues and damage nerfs.

MrBuffington3 votes

While I'm no Cass player, I feel like the changes to her E will make her a beastly wave pusher. You mentioned some changes making it harder for her to get first blood and dominate her lane, which sounds a lot like a cheese strategy; if they remove that, I think it's healthier for the game overall.

My main problem with Cass is that her ult is so unreliable, and that you basically have to flash onto the enemy to use it since the range is very short.

Solumindra6 votes

So removing her first blood capability is all ok with you, but letting ziggs bomb you in the face for 20 minutes in lane phase is all good? while having a really good escape and a global ult. ya. ok. lol

MrBuffington1 votes

Who said anything about Ziggs? There's a reason Riot has been consistently nerfing him. I'm just saying that a champion that doesn't get first blood isn't under powered. If Riot is working on making her a late game threat, removing early game cheese makes sense.

Solumindra3 votes

I haven't seen a ziggs nurf besides the ult in a long time, and the ult is only part of his problem. But it has to do with the fact that as the numbers are if she falls behind in lane she doesn't have a reliable way to get back in the game. Buff a few of the numbers and remove the windup on R and she will be good IMO

MrBuffington1 votes

Ziggs got minor nerfs consistently for like five patches, I agree he's still sort of toxic, but it's all a work in progress.

Again, I don't play Cass, but if she's designed as a hyper carry like Riot seems to intend, naturally she has a ramp up time where she's weak, and is strong once she gets to late game. A champ can't have it all, that's what makes Kog such a problem since he's super strong at like, all points of the game.

Solumindra6 votes

But that is the problem, she has nothing to compete in the assassin meta at mid. So if they keep this as it is, she still won't be picked because she will go 0/5 in lane sitting under the tower. I do play cass a majority of Cass players agree the rework is pretty bad. Try to understand that we know what a late game hypercarry is, and this kit still won't help cass do that.

kitsyoka5 votes

im having to agree with this guy if she gets counter picked by an assassin she is going to have an extremely hard time look at the scaling early at least veiger, a stack based mage, has a heavy cc and a lock on q and ult. Cass has no lock on besides her E which needs poison to be reset on cd. and do I even have to mention scaling? against normal mages she can play safe and smart early to win lat mid to late game, however what about all of these assassins that are made to melt anything under 3700 health. All the dashes to get behind her ult while she has one lock on that goes on a higher cc if she doesnt land delayed skillshots? I'm not saying its impossible with this new setup to win against an assassin but its going to be really hard. Plus if she doesnt get those early stacks she will never reach late game potential. Im not apposed to carry or flop champs, but this just seems to require absolute perfection to carry, and flops hard with minor counters or miniscule flaws. Do I even have to mention jungle pressure? the stack system might make a few early ganks secure lane dominance for the opponent even without the kill on cass. Can a pro master it, ya, but why not master someone more reliable with comeback potential.

Like the passive but the kit as a whole is sketchy, arguable too much to be viable. Mostly becuase if veiger misses all of his stacks he still has hard damage scale and a strong cc. Cass has soft, scaling a diminished health gain and very unreliable cc tied to ult. Not to mention you still have to land the skillshots to refresh the heal. I would be interested to see low stack value in a hypothetial situation where you had a hard time getting stacks to see if she can even function.

Tapu Fini5 votes

The problem with what they're doing is that's all Cass is good for until late game now, farming. Zero chance of winning a lane interaction because of her abysmal base damages and lack of early scaling.

I'd rather see them tone down Current cass' early game than see what's on the PBE go live.

MrBuffington2 votes

What it sounds like to me is that they're making Cass more of a hyper carry, which makes it so "just farming" for the first twenty minutes of a game actually pretty good. I mean, this is what Nasus does, and a lot of other hyper carries.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

On that note, I'm noticing a lot of people are still doing these kinds of arguments and assuming she'll still be going mid-lane. I can easily see heer going top lane with this kit now, which imho isn't a bad thing. The tankier, lower range meta of top-lane will actually allow her to stack her passive more than mid-lane.

Canastus4 votes

What makes you think she'll stand a chance in top-lane? Even the current Cassiopeia horribly fails in that lane and she got a lot more early power under the belt. The new Cass will have higher cooldowns and will be unable to trade with anyone since she's literally made of paper.

Once her lane opponent has purchased some MR, her damage will be nonexistent. Combined with her awful mobility she'll feed the enemy jungler over and over again the second she has pushed the lane. Her Q and W are terribly weak during lanephase and combined with their awful delays, she'll have no chance to outrun her opponents the second they initiate on her.

What use is a measly slow or movespeed bonus if they have hard cc? You're a sitting duck.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

In terms of ganks:

She'll benefit from the island nature of top lane. If she's getting ganked often top lane she can be defensive and farm under turret easily (especially with the E mana back and pushing potential) and wait for her team to exploit the free dragon control.

In terms of lane trading:

She's ranged, and on top of that has consistent mobility for kiting which I think we can both agree is easier to do to the majority melee champs that run top than the mages and assassins that run mid. Yes she won't do much damage early game, but with the passive mechanic low early game damage isn't a deal breaker. She benefits from a longer fight both in terms of damage capacity (passive) and overall damage (DoT) more than most.

Overall:

Yeah I think her damage numbers could be dialed up a bit, but with the introduction of this passive I completely understand undershooting and tuning up rather than overshooting and tuning down when it comes to the PBE testing that she is currently undergoing. She needs her interactions with Tear, RoA and the effect of the massive CDR boost to be well-explored before anything definite can be nailed down.

Canastus7 votes

The passive isn't worth the trouble of dealing with a horrendously weakened Cassiopeia during the first 30 minutes, at least someone like Nasus can be tanky AND deal tons of damage after they're done farming, I can't say the same about Cassiopeia. She's horribly immobile and lacks any tankyness which are reasons why she'll never be a viable pick.

12tales3 votes

I also don't see how free cdr could be good on her, it's a wasted stat which already negates the purchase of any other items that offer cdr.

...by having abilities?

Build Tear/RoA.

As an aside, I believe that this puts as at 7 for 1 on people claiming that a rework will kill a champion this year. Let's see if it will also put as at 6 for 2 on said champion going on to become a priority pick at all levels of play.

Tapu Fini8 votes

She's never needed high amounts of CDR. Her poisons don't stack and twin fang resets if you're using it well, only really had an effect on her ultimate. Not a good buy for her.

The5lacker3 votes

I'm offended by this rework, and I don't even play Cass. I'm offended based on my respect for my fellow players that Riot seems to be lacking lately. Between the neutered kitten that's Gnar, the laughably clunky upcoming Azir, and this defanging, I'm starting to think someone in the balance team hates players.

Wullf2 votes

You have put a lot of effor in this. I apreciate that.

Though I am one of those who pressed "yes". I am not saying that the rework is made well. But from what I read it might be functional.

As i read this:

It's about restricting Cassiopeia's sheer power

and this:

This version of Cass literally has no early or midgame

I realised that your problem might be that you do not like late game champs. There are a lot of late game champs and they work.

But otherwise I agree that her early and mid game might be really quite weak.

Solumindra6 votes

It has nothing to do about not liking late game champs. It has to do with this coming out during a meta where you can't play her with these numbers. Akali will just gib you in lane, talon, syndra, zed, yasuo will all do the same. Ziggs just wont let you close enough since you don't have a gap closer or escape move. She can't keep up in lane and the kit won't allow good comebacks late game because of the need to stack. This is a poor rework design as the numbers are now. And her R doesn't need the windup, should be instant since the cone is unreliable anyway.

LouisLeGros3 votes

The thing is the new Cass only has potential ideal late game threat. Current Cassiopeia already has a high potential late game threat, only its potential is more reliable since all of her damage isn't put into e and she can actually do things like poke with q. Giving Cass marginally more dps on E late game isn't going to help her out, she already had absurd potential dps on E late game and it wasn't enough to make up for her other problems.

Now they throw in a shitty early game and gut the damage from the rest of her kit. I'm just not seeing how the direction of this rework is going to help. It is just going to make her even more problematic to balance.

kitsyoka1 votes

Im looking at this both sides, and honestly im 50/50

dont like one thing i really don't like is the incorporation of cdr. A lot of off builds or alternative builds include items for cdr. Basically this is going to be another champ that is built one way or you can take the highway magic pen even at a miniscule amount will make up for her damage cuts but still go along with the stack idea while still being valid at all stages of the game as you will be stacking pen as they work to build defensive items. maybe build a item 3152 and no cdr, but your missing out on item 3165

like now im going to contradict myself. maybe heavy hitting builds like item 3040 item 3128 item 3089 item 3255 item 3001 item 3151 would be cool. maybe even a tankier version item 3151 item 3116 item 3040 item 3027 item 3152 item 3265

in the end it basically removes a lot of combinations with cdr being a waste also I like stacking but its risky enough with veiger mid and his huge cc ring and absurd damage. can casses prospected kit really handle this? also I always loved her gankabilty mid game which will be hit hard

also the heavier cc and stacking without cs or kills might lead to support cass's whether thats intentional or not

ıYı3 votes

No magic pen doesnt make up for nerfes. Base damages shoulda been buffed for that. its not like veigar passive too, it gives you% ap that means , you cant builld new cass with magic pen you have build her pure ap to make her passive to give you something.

You are very right about build path, also she has to max E too no way will be maxing w or q first.

She is no better then ryze with this changes, and he has very powerful aoe damage instead of single target and his abilities are targeted too. Also he will be tanky to survive while dealing damage at range. You cant build her tanky because your passive will be useless.

They should at least give her e on a standart 0.5-1 cd or "in fight"(like graves passive) This is so much unreliability for a power shift. U cant make a mage stronger late game without tankyness if she has to be in aa range to deal damage. 100 hp per E is no where near tankyness

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