Shaco is currently the best champion everywhere below Diamond

Cloud273·Dec 14, 2016·7 votes·1,353 views

Shaco is being played a lot and his win rate is very high (and even if he's not the number 1 champ in that division he's still in the top 5 for wins). And even in diamond he's still sitting at a 56% win rate. In masters it's even higher. The recent bugfixes and changes were completely unnecessary and have pushed Shaco over the edge. These numbers are from the past week btw. And yea I know it's only been a week, but he has a minimum of 300 games in literally every division (except masters and up) so I think this data will suffice.

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/

27 Comments

BrawlicSnakeDec 14, 20163 votes

I don't like to downvote because personally I feel that everyone is allowed fo have their own opinion, but this is not true. Someome like Vi is clearly better than Shaco, it's just the facts. Although Shaco can be very annoying, he is definitely not the best.

Cloud273Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't like to downvote because personally I feel that everyone is allowed fo have their own opinion, but this is not true. Someome like Vi is clearly better than Shaco, it's just the facts. Although Shaco can be very annoying, he is definitely not the best.

Shaco offers something that no other assassin can offer. In addition to his hard cc and stealth, Shaco also has very good mixed damage. With other assassins, it's either one or the other, but Shaco gets the best of both worlds. He can build pretty much anything and still have amazing damage.

BrawlicSnakeDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Shaco offers something that no other assassin can offer. In addition to his hard cc and stealth, Shaco also has very good mixed damage. With other assassins, it's either one or the other, but Shaco gets the best of both worlds. He can build pretty much anything and still have amazing damage.

You say hard cc. I'm sorry but once again, not true. You can take oracles BTW and track him down but look at Vi's ultimate and q. Shaco does not offer that kind of CC. And yes, Shaco can build AD or AP, but not both at the same time.

Cloud273Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You say hard cc. I'm sorry but once again, not true. You can take oracles BTW and track him down but look at Vi's ultimate and q. Shaco does not offer that kind of CC. And yes, Shaco can build AD or AP, but not both at the same time.

Last time I checked fear is hard CC. It's also stealthed and on a very short cooldown. Vi's ult is on like a 2 minute cooldown, so it's not that big of an issue.

L Psy KongrooDec 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

He can build pretty much anything and still have amazing damage.

No, actually, he can't. Shaco's base damages are absolutely fucking terrible, especially after the assassin update. He needs to build damage in order to do damage. Meanwhile, Rengar or Kha can build 2 damage items into full tank and still 100-0 people. Why do you think the best Shaco build atm is Runic Echoes > Gunblade > Lich Bane? It's because his damage is so shitty that it needs to be artificially inflated by items that actually allow him to assassinate.

Also, "hard cc"? Really? If someone walks into a box while Shaco is ganking them, they deserve to die because boxes take 2 full seconds to activate AND can be completely disabled by red trinkets and control wards.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Shaco has a high winrate is because Shaco mains have simply adapted to the rework and found a new combination of items that's strong for Shaco. And that's all Shaco is: strong. He's not OP, and certainly not deserving of a nerf as harsh as the ones on the PBE atm.

Cloud273Dec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mgzojerr,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-12-14T00:57:15.743+0000)

No, actually, he can't. Shaco's base damages are absolutely fucking terrible, especially after the assassin update. He needs to build damage in order to do damage. Meanwhile, Rengar or Kha can build 2 damage items into full tank and still 100-0 people. Why do you think the best Shaco build atm is Runic Echoes > Gunblade > Lich Bane? It's because his damage is so shitty that it needs to be artificially inflated by items that actually allow him to assassinate.

Also, "hard cc"? Really? If someone walks into a box while Shaco is ganking them, they deserve to die because boxes take 2 full seconds to activate AND can be completely disabled by red trinkets and control wards.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Shaco has a high winrate is because Shaco mains have simply adapted to the rework and found a new combination of items that's strong for Shaco. And that's all Shaco is: strong. He's not OP, and certainly not deserving of a nerf as harsh as the ones on the PBE atm.

He can place his boxes while he's stealthed. It's not like you're "walking into them". He literally places them on top of you lol.

Cloud273Dec 14, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=L Psy Congroo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mgzojerr,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2016-12-14T00:57:15.743+0000)

No, actually, he can't. Shaco's base damages are absolutely fucking terrible, especially after the assassin update. He needs to build damage in order to do damage. Meanwhile, Rengar or Kha can build 2 damage items into full tank and still 100-0 people. Why do you think the best Shaco build atm is Runic Echoes > Gunblade > Lich Bane? It's because his damage is so shitty that it needs to be artificially inflated by items that actually allow him to assassinate.

Also, "hard cc"? Really? If someone walks into a box while Shaco is ganking them, they deserve to die because boxes take 2 full seconds to activate AND can be completely disabled by red trinkets and control wards.

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason Shaco has a high winrate is because Shaco mains have simply adapted to the rework and found a new combination of items that's strong for Shaco. And that's all Shaco is: strong. He's not OP, and certainly not deserving of a nerf as harsh as the ones on the PBE atm.

Just because he can't outdamage Rengar and Kha'zix doesn't mean his damage is bad. The rest of his kit more than makes up for his "terrible base damages".

dunder killDec 14, 20162 votes

everyone is allowed fo have their own opinion, but this is not true. Someome like Vi is clearly better than Shaco, it's just the facts.

I don't think you understand the difference between "opinion" and "fact". You seem to use them interchangeably

BrawlicSnakeDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you understand the difference between "opinion" and "fact". You seem to use them interchangeably

Look up winrate, bud.

dunder killDec 14, 20161 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/shaco/platinum

53.6% winrate on Shaco

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/vi/platinum

53.7% on Vi

How is literally 0.1% "clearly" better? Again, you present your opinion as fact when there is clearly a difference between the two

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20163 votes

"The recent bugfixes were unnecessary"

Look, I know you don't like Shaco, but hear me out:

In order to make Shaco work well, Shaco players had to build AP with three items that allowed him to deal enough burst to actually kill someone. Echoes, Gunblade, and Lich Bane. Without those items, AP Shaco would be hard-pressed to kill anyone at all. His current burst damage ratio is:

90% from E 50% from Q 20% from Backstab Q

Which is a grant total of 160%, 140% without the backstab. These are perfectly normal AP ratios for an assassin champion.

Riot wants to nerf that to

75% from E 40% from Q 18% from Backstab Q

Which is a grand total of 132% with Backstab, 115% without.

115%. That's almost less than pre-rework Shaco's E did (except that spell actually had a base damage of more than 5-125)

To compare, here are the ratios of some other assassin characters:

Fizz's is 143.3% with QWE, 243% if they've been bleeding two seconds prior (Q, E, W proc will do the trick) LeBlanc's is 160% with QWE. No passive procs Akali's is 210% with QER, Ekko's is 210% with QE with passive Diana's is 250% QRWR

Shaco's position as an assassin that can play AD or AP is a unique one and one that I think should stay put. It gives Shaco a nice niche to play into. AD Shaco builds virtually no AP and AP Shaco builds virtually no AD. AD Shaco is is an OK spot. Not the best, but OK. AP Shaco is in a spot where he can reliably do his job after building all the items he needs to, which is what Riot had intended originally. A weak early-game, a decent mid-game, and a strong late-game. Nerfing Shaco's AP ratios to such an extent with no compensation is going to destroy his ability to keep up with any other AP assassins and he's already struggling to keep up with a lot of the AD ones. To the point where lots of Shaco's just build bruiser and play as an off-tank with damage.

Shaco is finally in a good spot. Not great, just good, for once. Finally, and in order to be good, he needs to buy three on-hit items. If they want to nerf anything, it could be his W damage, but otherwise? There's nothing they can nerf without removing Shaco from the game AGAIN.

Cloud273Dec 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

"The recent bugfixes were unnecessary"

Look, I know you don't like Shaco, but hear me out:

In order to make Shaco work well, Shaco players had to build AP with three items that allowed him to deal enough burst to actually kill someone. Echoes, Gunblade, and Lich Bane. Without those items, AP Shaco would be hard-pressed to kill anyone at all. His current burst damage ratio is:

90% from E 50% from Q 20% from Backstab Q

Which is a grant total of 160%, 140% without the backstab. These are perfectly normal AP ratios for an assassin champion.

Riot wants to nerf that to

75% from E 40% from Q 18% from Backstab Q

Which is a grand total of 132% with Backstab, 115% without.

115%. That's almost less than pre-rework Shaco's E did (except that spell actually had a base damage of more than 5-125)

To compare, here are the ratios of some other assassin characters:

Fizz's is 143.3% with QWE, 243% if they've been bleeding two seconds prior (Q, E, W proc will do the trick) LeBlanc's is 160% with QWE. No passive procs Akali's is 210% with QER, Ekko's is 210% with QE with passive Diana's is 250% QRWR

Shaco's position as an assassin that can play AD or AP is a unique one and one that I think should stay put. It gives Shaco a nice niche to play into. AD Shaco builds virtually no AP and AP Shaco builds virtually no AD. AD Shaco is is an OK spot. Not the best, but OK. AP Shaco is in a spot where he can reliably do his job after building all the items he needs to, which is what Riot had intended originally. A weak early-game, a decent mid-game, and a strong late-game. Nerfing Shaco's AP ratios to such an extent with no compensation is going to destroy his ability to keep up with any other AP assassins and he's already struggling to keep up with a lot of the AD ones. To the point where lots of Shaco's just build bruiser and play as an off-tank with damage.

Shaco is finally in a good spot. Not great, just good, for once. Finally, and in order to be good, he needs to buy three on-hit items. If they want to nerf anything, it could be his W damage, but otherwise? There's nothing they can nerf without removing Shaco from the game AGAIN.

It's not like I hate Shaco. I just hate his shiv. With other assassins you can avoid their burst (except Akali and Fizz). You can dodge Leblanc's chains, you can dodge some of Ekko's abilities, and you can dodge most of Diana's kit (except her ult). Also none of them have stealth except Akali. And none of them have stealth traps that hard cc you. Shaco's kit is extremely annoying to deal with compared to everyone else you mentioned. There's much more counterplay to other assassins.

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20162 votes

Shaco's shiv deals no damage unless he's fed or it's late-game. It's literally designed to be garbage until you have a lot of items.

Shaco's W and clone boxes are disabled with a ward or Oracle's. His stealth is useless if you have Oracle's. He has no way to catch up to people if he uses Deceive to initiate and they use a mobility spell to get out. He's extremely squishy. Need I go on about how many simple ways there are to deal with Shaco?

Cloud273Dec 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Shaco's shiv deals no damage unless he's fed or it's late-game. It's literally designed to be garbage until you have a lot of items.

Shaco's W and clone boxes are disabled with a ward or Oracle's. His stealth is useless if you have Oracle's. He has no way to catch up to people if he uses Deceive to initiate and they use a mobility spell to get out. He's extremely squishy. Need I go on about how many simple ways there are to deal with Shaco?

You can't keep using oracle's as an excuse. Saying a champ is balanced because an item exists is stupid. We don't balance champions around items. We balance them around their kits.

And the cooldown on deceive is extremely short. Even if Shaco screws up he doesn't have to wait long before it come back up. He can also dodge skillshots with it if he times it correctly. In addition to this, he can also have his clone tank for him or run to one of his boxes to prevent people from chasing him. So, as you can see, it's not just about his damage but about safety as well.

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20163 votes

{quoted}

You can't keep using oracle's as an excuse. Saying a champ is balanced because an item exists is stupid. We don't balance champions around items. We balance them around their kits.

And the cooldown on deceive is extremely short. Even if Shaco screws up he doesn't have to wait long before it come back up. He can also dodge skillshots with it if he times it correctly. In addition to this, he can also have his clone tank for him or run to one of his boxes to prevent people from chasing him. So, as you can see, it's not just about his damage but about safety as well.

A free item that disables half of his kit? Maybe if it was an item like QSS that took up a slot and had a gold value attached to it, sure. But Oracles? It's free.

AP Shaco is also literally being balanced around the existence of three items right now, none of which are being changed and all of which are required to be in his inventory before he actually starts doing damage. and is being nerfed for no reason because he does well after getting those three items. He isn't a special case with this either.

The cooldown on Deceive is 14 seconds. That's short? You're high.

He can dodge skillshots? So can half the champion roster.

His clone tank? Tank what. The clone takes tons of bonus damage from every source.

You're literally just listing off normal parts of a normal kit and saying it's broken. Watch:

Kayls is a melee champion that gets free heavy hitting ranged splash damage that allows her to farm safe and destroy people with physical AND magical damage for no reason. She has a super slow that is also a burst spell PLUS a heal that speeds her up so nobody can ever chase her down. Not like it matters though because if they DO get to her or her carry she can just make them invulnerable and watch as they 1v5 the enemy team because THAT'S TOTALLY FAIR. There is NO item to counter Kayle's ult with because it's just so incredibly broken. It blocks all incoming damage on anyone you want for a long time.

See? I can do it too. Doesn't that sound OP?

Please don't try to justify changes on a champion that you never, ever play. I've been playing this character for seven years. I've been in the top percent of players for almost just as long. You're trying to argue Shaco with someone who knows his ins and outs better than Riot does and your argument is weak.

Live2LetDieDec 14, 20161 votes

Diamond plus are susually shack mains so it's irrelevant. The champ is fine if people learn to upgrade their red trincket lv9

Knight SkyDec 14, 20161 votes

That websight is not very reliable, use Champion.gg , thats the sight many people use and has accurate info (:

Cloud273Dec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That websight is not very reliable, use Champion.gg , thats the sight many people use and has accurate info (:

What do you mean not reliable? There's data for literally thousands of games on that site.

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 14, 20161 votes

He's getting nerfed with the hotfix coming up soon. His ap ratios are being lowered since he's having too much success with a hybrid build

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20162 votes

Gunblade and IE? If they fixed his passive, IE wouldn't be being built. Gunblade is mandatory on AP Shaco. Gunblade or Protobelt.

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 14, 20162 votes

Apparently he's been raping going full ap

https://www.champion.gg/champion/Shaco

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20161 votes

No, he's been doing well (as good as any other meta jungle right now) by buying Echoes, Gunblade, and Lich Bane. AP Shaco without these items is useless garbage, and most AP assassins buy those items anyway. Shaco's burst AP ratio right now is 160%, most AP assassins have over 200%. Riot wants to nerf Shaco's down to 132%, 115% without Backstab. They're removing AP Shaco from the game with these changes and doing nothing to help AD Shaco in compensation. It's some serious bullshit.

Ad Vitam AeternaDec 14, 20162 votes

As a non shaco player I support the death of this invisible fuck.

ChickenWrapDec 14, 20161 votes

As a Shaco main, he's really not that great or difficult to deal with and there are much worse champions to cry about.

lolipopevelynnDec 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Shaco is being played a lot and his win rate is very high (and even if he's not the number 1 champ in that division he's still in the top 5 for wins). And even in diamond he's still sitting at a 56% win rate. In masters it's even higher. The recent bugfixes and changes were completely unnecessary and have pushed Shaco over the edge. These numbers are from the past week btw. And yea I know it's only been a week, but he has a minimum of 300 games in literally every division (except masters and up) so I think this data will suffice.

http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/

those winrates are for AP shaco, the buffs didn't even address AP shaco lol.

BrawlicSnakeDec 14, 20161 votes

Definitely agree. By no means is Shaco as powerful as others. He is strong, but to a certain extent.