Vayne with IE can crit for over 420% of her total ad with a single Q auto.
Talon's QW and passive proc has a 400% bonus ad ratio.
A melee assassin is not allowed to burst adc but a ranged adc is allowed to do so?
MonkeyMadness19 votesA melee assassin is not allowed to burst adc but a ranged adc is allowed to do so?
lol ok, so you missed this tiny little itsy bitsy thing here: BASE DAMAGE.
Vayne's tumble has literally none. Talon's QW has 430 base damage (increased to 510 base damage if the Q crits due to the range). Not to mention, the W slows them and because this combo will apply 3 wound stacks, allows talons next basic attack to deal 60-160 damage + 200% of bonus AD as a bleed. While I agree that Vayne is entirely OP due to the new stealth mechanic and her ridiculous synergy with Duskblade, your assessment of the situation is just not correct.
Teridax6832 votesThe exact Tumble + auto IE crit ratio is 425% total AD, which translates to 425% base AD + 425% bonus AD. At level 18, that means it has about 357 base damage, which is still significantly lower than Talon's PQW damage of 783, and even the scaling is slightly lower, since Talon's PQW scales with 450% bonus AD without IE, but Vayne's burst requires far less time and inputs, and can be supplemented by further massive and fairly reliable crits within that timeframe. OP's analysis is not exact for a number of reasons, but the very fact that a marksman's DPS can compare to an assassin's burst shows that something is seriously wrong.
MonkeyMadness8 votesLike I said, I'm fully aware that Vayne is oppressive right now, but to say that her single aa burst is higher than Talon's is just wrong on so many levels, and not correctly identifying the problem will cause Riot to just ignore posts like this entirely and never truly address the issue.
You are also forgetting that unlike vayne, talon's combo offers utility and area of effect damage. Not to mention, that bleed is brutal, and you didn't even consider that in your calculations.
Blåbæret6 votesLike I said, I'm fully aware that Vayne is oppressive right now, but to say that her single aa burst is higher than Talon's is just wrong on so many levels, and not correctly identifying the problem will cause Riot to just ignore posts like this entirely and never truly address the issue.
You are also forgetting that unlike vayne, talon's combo offers utility and area of effect damage. Not to mention, that bleed is brutal, and you didn't even consider that in your calculations.
We have a Vayne main in the house.
MonkeyMadness6 votesI don't even play adc let alone vayne. In fact, if you actually read what I'm saying here, you will notice that I actually feel that vayne is massively overtuned atm and she needs massive nerfs. All I'm saying is that OP is totally incorrect with his/her assessment of the situation.
HUGEBALLS1 votesI don't even play adc let alone vayne. In fact, if you actually read what I'm saying here, you will notice that I actually feel that vayne is massively overtuned atm and she needs massive nerfs. All I'm saying is that OP is totally incorrect with his/her assessment of the situation.
Wait a minute that is how vayne has always been, she is horrible during the laning phase and once she gets her power spike items she goes off. The reason you didn't see her in the previous meta is because she has to build one of the most expensive items in the game which takes a long time. compared to last ADC meta which required people to build armor pen. While assasins are powerful they are not late game champions they have power early and mid game and are only allowed cleanup fights late game. While vayne can get totally rekt by almost any bot comp during the laning phase she thrives in the late game. That is how all late game champions have been, including TF, Annie, Tryndamere, Ziggs, Vi, Kassadin, etc. I am also sure that building full AD and Armor Pen doesn't help in taking less damage also which is what Assassins usually do.
MonkeyMadness3 votesNot sure what you are saying right now. All marksmen have been way overtuned for a while now, and the recent changes to stealth and a couple other minor things have pushed vayne to the top of this particular class. With the addition of greenfather's blessing and fresh blood masteries, ranged champs are stronger than ever.
Teridax687 votesVayne has point-and-click hard crowd control, which Talon doesn't have, and I did factor in Talon's bleed, if you want to do the math and check. Again, this is literally comparing just one ability in Vayne's kit to Talon's main damage combo, and the fact that the numbers get so close is disturbing enough. Yeah, Talon has a lot of different tools to get in range of his targets, but marksmen have range and a focus on DPS, and Vayne has a lot of tools of her own, so by all rights her "burst" should not even remotely compare to Talon's.
MonkeyMadness2 votesTalon can also hit a large portion of this combo on multiple targets, and has an ultimate that will contribute to this aoe damage even more. Meanwhile, vayne's ult is pure utility.
Teridax681 votesTalon's rework moved him away from multi-target damage through changes to his movement, and in practice he mostly focuses on single targets, and can no longer really blow up the enemy team in one go like he used to when significantly ahead, which is for the better. Vayne, on the other hand, can quickly chain targets even though the bulk of her damage (i.e. her W stacks) is meant to make her focus on one target at a time. I also don't think 70 bonus AD, i.e. the equivalent of an Infinity Edge's worth of attack damage, can ever really qualify as "pure utility".
MonkeyMadness1 votesTalon always focused single targets and dealt damage to others in more of a "collateral damage" sense. However, he is definitely more aoe focused now, as he will apply the wound stacks to all enemies struck, meaning that he will have better follow up on them after his primary target is dead.
Teridax684 votesYou still need to autoattack enemies to pop the stacks, so unless Talon somehow has the opportunity to get within melee range of every enemy and bleed them in sequence, he's not going to have great AoE damage. Again, in practice, a lot of Talon's AoE is either very directional or unused while initiating, and with his vulnerability windows he's pretty focused on single targets. Meanwhile, Vayne's range means she has naturally far better target selection, and on top of that she has much better access to tools that let her deal great damage even against tanky opponents. Neither champion is particularly great against crowds, unless you're Doublelift, but citing Talon's "collateral damage" as an advantage against Vayne is not a very strong argument.
MonkeyMadness3 votesso unless Talon somehow has the opportunity to get within melee range
Right, targetted dash won't accomplish that, how silly of me...Oh, and ofc he doesn't have invisibility with a speed boost or anything like that...Ya riot should probs give him something like that...
Teridax683 votesRight, targetted dash won't accomplish that, how silly of me
To five different targets at once? If you want to compare dashes, Vayne's has literally one-third of his own dash's cooldown, and if you want to compare ults, Vayne's also provides repeatable stealth and a movement speed boost for 12 seconds to his 2.5, on top of the innate movement speed boost she already has.
MonkeyMadness3 votesAre you kidding me right now? Read OP's post. Read it. Internalize it. Then realize that you are making a 100% different argument. Vayne is overpowered, no fucking shit. BUT THIS DOES NOT MAKE OP CORRECT. In fact, the reason vayne is OP is less because of her damage and more because of the fact that she can abuse items like shiv/rapidfire cannon and duskblade. In terms of base damage/scaling damage, talon wins 100% of the time, mathematically.
Teridax684 votesI agree that Vayne is currently OP in part because she abuses the new Duskblade and generally is a bit overtuned, but the fact remains that marksmen in general all end up with DPS that gets far too close to burst. A single IE crit at 300 AD deals 750 damage, which is more than a great deal many actual nuke spells, including Talon's Rake with that same amount of bonus AD, and whereas assassins and mages have their damage placed behind cooldowns, dodgeable conditions and mana/energy costs, marksmen can usually attack multiple times per second, with no chance of missing, crit consistently, and do so for free. OP's core point is that marksmen have the potential to out-burst assassins, which should never happen.
MonkeyMadness3 votesYou aren't listening to me. I know that marksmen in general are overpowered. My argument is that OP is incorrect regarding WHY this is the case. Assassins still have higher burst damage than ADCs. To say otherwise is indicative of a massive lack in fundamental game knowledge. Talon can EASILY pull off his combo in the time it would take for a marksman to see and aa him once (maybe twice if he/she is really quick or was expecting the talon to pop in). When you say that talon's damage is placed behind cooldowns, no, not in the sense of his burst. You can Q W R in literally the blink of an eye, which is way faster than any marksman's attack speed. ADCs are still very much DPS in the sense that they have to wait for subsequent autoattacks to finish off an enemy. The issue is that unless you are colossally tanky, the number of shots required is low enough that it feels like you got bursted.
Teridax683 votesI don't think you're listening to me, because my point thus far has been that marksmen do approach levels of burst comparable to that of an assassin. I even produced math in the above post that demonstrates as much. This isn't a problem with marksmen being overpowered (even though I think they're too strong), this is a problem with marksmen encroaching on the strengths of another class, strengths that they're not supposed to come close to, bar a few exceptions. If a single marksman autoattack deals as much damage as an assassin or mage's nuke, that is not okay, yet that is the case right now.
The Deckowner5 votesIf you are taking in consideration of base damage, why don't you also take in consider the fact that Talon scales off bonus AD while Vayne scale off total ad? Also the fact that Talon's W second part(60% of the total W dmg) is very easy to dodge and his passive require him to hit 3 spells and an auto attack after? while Vayne's tumble is point and click nuke?
oSEXYPLATYPUSo6 voteswell get crit on talon ... and you will do more than vayne
The Deckowner27 votesTalon scales off raw AD and crit is basically useless on him.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 votesbut does 
not provided ad ? and crit? and if he crits with alot of ad wouldnt it be more damage ?
The Deckowner11 voteshis combo contains 1 auto attack.
that 25% crit is totally gonna work right?
RisenDarkKnight26 votesActually his melee Q is a guaranteed crit so it benefits from the IE bonus damage. It's a solid choice as a 5th or 6th item.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo21 votesso im not a complete retard for suggesting an on talon ?
RisenDarkKnight23 votesYeah it works, you shouldn't build it early though, as the Lethality items are better early game. IE is more of a late game stat multiplier.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo5 voteswell the way i was being talked to you think id have a lower IQ then http://imgur.com/xoItaIe
Troll for Trump8 votesOld Talon (way back, when he had silence) would get IE as a finishing item, though it was replaced with Death's Dance. You could still get it, and I have been going for it, but the way the game has been changing, things have to do tons of dmg and have survivability, so glass cannon champs tend to be pushed out.
Auz the Ripper1 votesold talon could also go full crit as both his damage multipliers applied. it was much stronger late game but much less reliable mid/early game.
Troll for Trump2 votesOld Crit Talon fell off lategame.
I can't really speak much from personal experience; I've only done it once, semi-recently, as top lane Talon. But it absolutely destroyed everything early game. You didn't need the armor pen; the damage amplification was more than enough to secure kills. But as games drag out, Talon has the same problems as usual; Things living past his burst dmg will outduel and outtrade him. Tanks will cc him, ANything with cc will hurt him. He will kill the squishies, and they will never be able to do anything about it. But everything else kills it.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votestalon has always fell of late game
Troll for Trump2 votesTrue, but he was still more significant in teamfights. Black Cleaver really helped with this, as his W and R would shred their entires team armor, and he would have a better time with tanks/juggernauts.
Talon "falls off"
Crit Talon falls off. A ledge. Pantheon-style.
The Deckowner6 votesYou are
oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votesand im not the one who said it was viable but anything that provides ad and with crit if and when you crit it amplifies your damage.
The Deckowner1 votestalon Q is not a crit.
oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votesnever said his Q was
NightmareAmazoX4 votesTalon Q is a CRIT, It depends on how you use it!
Deadly Mittens3 votesPeople are trigger happy with downvotes it seems.
OyddAWqJ5r1 votesHaha hell no it's always been good on him as a slot filler
oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 voteswell according to the OP i am ... and got called that... and down voted
The Deckowner1 votesTalon q in melee range deals MODIFIED damage, it is not a crit. It is like anivia E, crit only interact with auto attack, talon q is an ability.
Verdade6 votesnot how it works. There are abilities modified by IE crit bonus (or crit damage as whole) while other are not
The Deckowner1 votesthat is actually how it works, it is not a crit.
IE applies to stuff like Shaco Q because its dmg is proc by autoattacking, Talon's Q does not have anything to do with IE.
TrogiteKeselo3 votesIt is definitely a crit. Buying an IE changes the damage from 150% to 200%. I tested it.
Jet Sett4 votesGuaranteed crit when in melee range, late game most people have enough options to peel you off at that range, so you usually end up having to use Q for the gap closer.
Spice POWAH2 votesActually, talon's combo has 2 AAs and a guaranteed crit (which gets amplified by ie). Talon works kinda weird with autos, a melee range q resets his Auto timer even though it isn't an auto.
The Deckowner1 votesRWQAA is the most promising combo to proc the passive in the shortest time.
Talon Q is not a crit, it's like Anivia E, just modified damage.
Automated Riven3 votesThat's actually incorrect. Talons fastest passive prock is E Q mid Q cast R and aa with the auto attack reset. Its happens in the space of time that you Q AA happends. His highest damage combo is Q and R mid Q AA E AA.
The Deckowner3 votesTalon E doesn't even do dmg, what are you even talking about?
Prison AnaI2 votes[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mbH5mfO2,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-11-13T17:42:04.342+0000)
his combo contains 1 auto attack.
that 25% crit is totally gonna work right?
his close range q crits tho and that hurts