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Just wondering... do we even WANT spellvamp to be a thing?

SaltyToplaneGoat··10 votes·896 views

This is a serious question. I also consider lifesteal a pretty bullshit mechanic, but it's CONSISTENT bullshit, and that redeems it in my eyes. The healing you get from it is more or less preidcable, it's something you can work with both when you play with and against it.

But imagine if burst mages had access to viable spellvamp? They suddenly heal up seemingly out of nowhere while using not a single ability that implies any healing. Mostly looking at Annie, Brand and Veigar here. Those champs are not supposed to have any heals, it's one of their build-in weaknesses everyone has come to accept. Not to mention it looks just weird. Especially Annie worries me with this. The tankyness from molten shield PLUS self healing? I doubt this is a healthy mix.

And viable spellvamp would probably break Swain, now that I think about it. (Not counting Vlad here as he's up for the rework this summer).

If this was a thing we would have to balance literally every AP user around the possibility of them buiding spellvamp, effectively forcing them all to build this stat as they are balanced around it.

In my eyes the spellvamp mechanic is a relict that could be removed completly without anyone really noticing it. Because, let's be real here, most people have forgotten this thing even exists unless they are a Vlad main. Like Dodge, this could be kicked out with almost no one ever missing it.

An active item for DoT users could be more interesting tho. Like, it builds stacks whenever damage an enemy and at full stacks it heals you. A healing stattics for mages. That's just what I thought up right now and it might work healthier than the current spellvamp system.

38 Comments

DrNova6 votes

Why is spellvamp bs but lifesteal isn't. An ad champ can go attack a minion wave or mob camp with a few AA's and go from quarter health to full in two seconds but an ap champ would have to back in the same situation.

Plus AD champs apply their lifesyeal rather continuously, while the vast majority of ap champs would only get it between cooldiwns/depe ding on their Mana left.

And finally you bring up Annie, but how is jax/ww/fiora/Darius/xin/Lee ect any better?

Ad champs get all the best benefits, but "spell vamp so unfair"

K.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

It is bullshit, I said so in the post. Like, in the first line or so.

I would have no problem with removing both, tbh. But this thread is specifically about Spellvamp and the unique problems it brings in.

DrCyanide4 votes

As a mage, it feels bad to be forced to back, with no option to get health back. That's the core complaint here, one that's highlighted after you poke an AD champion down for a minute, they go off into the jungle for 5 seconds and are back to full health. If Spell Vamp was removed, in 6 months time we would see new players asking for lifesteal for Mages because the problem would still be there.

Mages spend mana to attack, and every burst mage out there engages while full health. How many times has Annie used Flash Stun Tibbers on your team while at 5% HP? 30% HP? Anything less than 70% HP? Almost never. Spell Vamp would be inheritly limited based on that alone for burst Mages.

I think the best solution would be a stat like Spell Vamp Effectiveness for each champion that limits the healing they can get from spell vamp. That can be changed if a certain abuse case crops up, while not destroying the stat. This spell vamp effectiveness would not be alterable by runes/masteries/items.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmm wouldn't there be a more elegant solution to this problem than an outdated mechanic that has to work equally for every champions while they all have highly unequal patterns?

I think this is where you could do a lot with active items or unique passives. I'm going to do some brainstorming now for a few ideas:

1.) An active item that allows a channel that burns your mana and heals you for a part of it. (as it is a channel I recommend out of combat use) - the opposite might be interesting too: pay HP for more mana. For those who like playing risky...

2.) An healing ludens: casting spells builds up stacks. At full stacks, you get a heal - here we could run a parallel to Bloodthrister by giving it an overheal shield if you are full HP.

3.) Malevolent Potion (builds from refillable): dealing 2000 damage to an enemy champion (no time limit) grants one charge. Kills grant one charge. If the pot limit is reached you will instead get the heal/mana effects. Also possible effect: drinking grants +X spell damage (triggers only once on DoT effects/half on AoE). This might be an earlygame thing.

And that is what I just came up with on the spot! I'm sure if Riots team sat down and thought about it they would come up with way mores possible stuff ^^

DrCyanide1 votes
  1. Unusable by manaless champions, and still sub-par to lifesteal as it drains a resource.
  2. Every mage can use Ludens, true, but isn't that effect starting to be a little overused?
  3. Late game is when lifesteal is most potent. Why would you intentionally make spellvamp unable to compete at that point in the game?

The mechanic I described is effectively the same as Base Movement Speed or Attack Damage Growth. It's not a one size fits all, it's a stat tailored to the specific champion. While inevitably a few champions will abuse an item if it's viable and it won't be seen if it's not (see Rageblade as an example), base stats can't be abused. They're tweaked if they're out of bounds for that champion.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hey, there always have been seperate items only mage users can actually make use of. Not a problem here.

And if the 2.) mechanics has proven to be good I see no problem to bot use it. DoT users (those who actually want spellvamp the most) don't really want a ludens in the first place. Make the passive unique and you're done. As long people do not buy multiple versions of this mechanic at once I see no problem.

You could also take the mechanic of 3.) and slap it on an active item, whateve, those were just random ideas ^^

Athenes Lulu3 votes

Mages usually don't build it because it's just impractical. Why bother building spellvamp when there's AP, mana regen, CDR, or even HP to build. Hardly anyone other than a very few mages/assassins got room and time for that. Don't forget AP assassins. Many people don't like going against fed Akalis because of how the gunblade works too well on her... and guess what that has... spellvamp!

Most mages already have range (yes, even shorter ranged mages like Veigar and Annie count) and CC to keep themselves safe. If they don't have CC, they have mobility to make up for the lack of CC (cough Katarina), or the ability to self heal (cough Vlad).

You don't need rocket science to even know all this, but just imagine LB killing someone though at the same time she is very low. If she had spell vamp, then imagine her all of a sudden going back to full HP. Yeah, unless you are LB, you don't want that.

But how come ADs get to have lifesteal, they say? They often lack the reliable CC/mobility to keep themselves safe. They usually lack the burst that many mages actually still have. Even if they have burst, they usually can't just "lock down something and kill that shit". That's also a possible explanation why ADs are starting to get "more build choices" mainly because of the lack of "just lock something down and kill it".

Just a handful of thoughts to consider.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Spell vamp will never be as strong as lifesteal for two reasons.

  1. Mana costs. Every time you cast a spell to heal up, your other resource goes down.

  2. Cooldowns. Even the lowest of cooldowns can't keep up with AD's max 2.5 attacks per second and min 1 attack per second.

I've been fighting for lifesteal spellvamp equality for years now. It's no use.

Abyssphere2 votes

"If this was a thing we would have to balance literally every AP user around the possibility of them buiding spellvamp, effectively forcing them all to build this stat as they are balanced around it."

This isn't how balance works. If Spell Vamp was wildly broken on some people and very weak on others then they could very easily just make vamp worse on the abuse cases. We don't know what they're going to do with SV to make it a viable stat but I assume it will have much more flexible levers than "100% single target, 33% AOE".

If SV is good on a champion then them being forced to build it isn't a bad thing given that... you should be building your champion in the most viable way possible. Realistically if spell vamp becomes a big deal on Annie then nobody's ever going to not build it on her except special snowflakes, so... who cares if she's mediocre without it.

LadyRenly2 votes

Morgana has spellvamp and doesn't seem to do very much with it.

I don't think it's a huge issue

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Assassins can have Maw, marksman can have Gage, and tanks can have Titanic.

Pls, cut the crap about "built-in weaknesses".

SaltyToplaneGoat5 votes

So, because the balance team fucked up in one part of the game, they are supposed to fuck over EVERYTHING now? Nice logic you got there. This is how you ruin a game btw.

Maw will get a nerf, Gage will probably be turned melee-only and I have not really a problem with tanks having one item that scales with their hp. Just prevent champs liek fiora using it and you're k.

Iceember1 votes

Problem being is that you are asking for removal of a core mechanic for some sustained damage mages so that it becomes more "balanced" but you are fine with lifesteal. (Oh btw the current spellvamp items read: "heal for 15% of the damage dealt" meaning auto attack champs can abuse them cough jax cough)

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

Let's be real here, there are maybe 3 champs using this mechanic extensively to be viable and that is including Vladimir, the other two being Kennen and Akali I guess.

It would be a lot easier to just work them over and remove the mechanic instead of making it a thing that will cause even more problems.

Lifesteal on the other hand... I told you my opinion on it in the OP. I still consider it pretty bullshit. But it has less gamebreaking potential than spellvamp in my eyes.

RocketRelm1 votes

Morgana Would require an altogether new passive.

On the one hand, Morgana with a new passive would probably be fun and innovative and neat. On the other hand, only Mid Morgana uses Spell Vamp as a stat, and Support Morgana doesn't have the power budget to take a new passive without weakening her kit elsewhere.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I'd love to see her reworked at the same time with Kayle, even tho Kayle's kit is way more problematic than Morgs, Morg's kit is just so... clunky. And simply said: boring.

I think she has more potential than being a Q->W bot ^^

Astôlfo1 votes

Gage is bullshit. Maw is sorta bullshit. Titanic was bullshit but it's been nerfed a lot in PBE.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Correction: Gage is Bullshit on champs it was not even supposed to be build on. No one gives a dam if a garen or a Darius builds it - if Graves picks it, THAT's a problem!

Astôlfo1 votes

Ah right, that's what I meant. Gage on ADCs/squishies*

Ionian1 votes

All that foxfire spellvamp, oh man I want this Ahri

(2.75s cooldown single target spell)

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

Yet another candidate for "who would be incredibly broken if this was a thing". <_<

DrNova1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWQnzHNX,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-03-20T15:19:35.031+0000)

Yet another candidate for "who would be incredibly broken if this was a thing". <_<

You talking about Ahri? First off her current passive is t that strong and gated between every 4th spell. Second assuming spellvamp ever became worth getting I don't see it being any worse on her then anyone else, her per spell damage is lower then a good deal of mages and her Mana runs out quicker then most in a sin gle rotation.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

She is already a strong pick. Not op, but viable and pretty hard to catch and kill in teamfights. Now add actually viable spellvamp on this and it might be a little too much.

Introducing spellvamp would require so many mages to get nerfed... and that would effectivly bind the entire class to that mechanic. Not a preferable scenario.

DrNova1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mWQnzHNX,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2016-03-20T15:38:30.997+0000)

She is already a strong pick. Not op, but viable and pretty hard to catch and kill in teamfights. Now add actually viable spellvamp on this and it might be a little too much.

Introducing spellvamp would require so many mages to get nerfed... and that would effectivly bind the entire class to that mechanic. Not a preferable scenario.

I don't disagree about ahri. But a rather easy fix to just tune dow n her passive (or rework entirely if spellvamp became viable)

I don't know I agree however that the mage class as a whole would become an issue. As I said mage damage in general is limited to windown of cooldowns and or Mana usage. Granted there are some exceptions, but it still would be less life gain then ad counterparts, and mages being in general pretty squishy I don't see is being a huge problem.

Also there are only two spell vamp items, only one of which is viable on probably 95% of mages. I could be wrong depending on what riot decided usable spell vamp would look like and some specific champ scenarios, but overall seems like it wouldn't be a huge rock of the boat.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Yeah I see no reason for mages to be denied spell-vamp, when ranged physical carries have been abusing life-steal since season 2.

GreenLore6 votes

The thing is that mages tend to have wildly different damage patterns.

Some deal huge amounts of burst,while others deal damage over time. Then there are those who deal lots of aoe damage,while others deal more concentrated damage. And then there's the fact that the more tankier mages already have a good amount of sustain through their spells.

Last but not least they need to watch out that ad-champs don't abuse spellvamp,considering that there are some rather casterlike ad-champions.

spellvamp would need to be balanced around all these factors,which makes it rather hard to balance,without making it op on some champions.

Carries on the other hand gain life steal through auto attacks and that works pretty much the same for every carry.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

Finally someone gets it.

As I said before, lifesteal might be also pretty bs, but it is consistent on all champions using it.

I wonder how a game would look like if both LS and SV were completly removed...

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

So, when was the last time you seen triple mage teams? Granted towers are weaker than ever before, giving them the capacity to level them in 2 waves; but their range of playstyles should have something in common beyond just ability power. Ranged physical carries nearly all share critical hits & attack speed, while getting free sustain from masteries. Despite the abuse cases riot hasn't nerfed them; so why prevent mages from being powerful? Riot has long forgotten their initial purpose of attempting ballance.

GreenLore1 votes

I'm not saying mages don't need the mage update in general,I just say that there is a good reason why spellvamp is so rare.

And overall mages don't need to be adcs 2.0. It is perfectly ok for them to do different things than adcs,I mean adcs will always be superior when it comes to pushing power for example.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

I agree the majority is significantly underpowered and should be doing something different than physical carries; however spellvamp I disagree is what would make them similar. Take vladimir & swain, they rely on area control and have build in sustain; they don't have much sudden damage nor are they easy to be telefragged. Then there's casseiopia & azir who spam their abilities in a fashion like atuo-attacks; I'd say the problem isn't spell-vamp making the class similar, but that some mages were (re)designed to function like their physical counterparts. The few should be changed instead of the many; that is tweak cass & azir so that they only partially benefit from spell-vamp since they're so spam-able, instead of gutting the rest of the mages that don't act like machine guns.

GreenLore1 votes

Its not that the classes would become too similar,its just that saying "class A does it,so why can't class B do it too" is in itself not a valid reason for something,otherwise we would have just one class in the game.

The thing is that spellvamp needs to consider every ap-champ in the game(and even some ad champs),its not just a "few" champs that are problematic. We have assassin-like ap champs,we have ap-bruisers,ap-supports and all kinds of mages(some who have sustain as part of their kits,some who deal burst damage,etc.),all who have different spells and CDs and who would benefit differently from spellvamp.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

Again there's physical counterparts across the board with varying degrees of abuse with lifesteal; with some examples being atroxx, garen, leesin, xinzhao, olaf, ext. Lifesteal was hardly considered when introduced despite several problem champions being obvious flaws in design. On saying it's merge all the classes into one, I again doubt it; what tanks rely on lifesteal or spellvamp? Where are the supports that rely on noticeable sustain (morgana's is negligible)? When have you seen an assassin rush a bloodthirster or will of the ancients?

Mages were called AP carries for a reason, and with the wacky state of balance physical carries are more durable than tanks because of their lifesteal on-top of their consistent high damage output at range. All they have to do is right click to do so, no mana cost and hardly an interruption to their other abilities or movements (with a few exceptions). Mages would be draining mana to regain health with spellvamp, that's a significantly more of a fair trade off; not to mention while most of them are aoe, they can be dodged. You can't dodge auto-attacks unless your jax or fizz. The obvious limitations that are already in place, should already be enough; aoe abilities heal for a fraction to maintain consistency with single unit spells, just bump up the numbers in sync.

LilxPaprika1 votes

mean while item 3812 + Pantheon, Khazix try not to draw attention to themselves.

Bodkins Odds1 votes

Seeing as how she has a single target nuke, Annie already has access to viable spellvamp. It's just that she usually prefers having more damage.

Saianna1 votes

13 hours ago this thread was made

And now your biased thread.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

That is a thread to discuss a possible implementation. This is one that discusses if we even want spellvamp in the game. Two different topics, two different threads. Very simple.

Chaos Milk Tea1 votes

Life steal is available to ALL ad champs. It is used most effectively by adcs because of their constant dps, as you mentioned. It will be the same for mages. Yeah you COULD put spell vamp on annie, but if she starts dying between spell casts then "oh well oops" your spell vamp didn't save you. It's just not as practical on champions who's damage comes in bursts, as opposed to constant damage or continual rotations like Riven.

You need to consider who the real spell vamp abusers would be: Champions who can constantly dole out damage either without worrying about cool downs, or with cool downs so low it's like a second auto attack. Cassiopeia Evelynn Kayle Orianna Swain Vladimir Karthus

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

yes :3

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