If a player in your game was reported and punished and you lost because of that player, you should get your LP and MMR back. That, and the system for punishing players should be more robust to facilitate a more accurate representation of players' position on the ladder, as well as a better overall competitive experience for those who wish to play the game seriously.
Sintama5 votesHow about series? Lost promos twice due to AFKers. Pretty awesome if you ask me.
Sythriel Draken4 votesI just lost mine due to intentional feeders.. Guess what, Riot won't do a god damn thing.
nimabi694 votesby that logic might aswell get rid of bronze rank , was carrying a game 15/0 then the 4 players in my team said they were bored and wanted to feed , yep we lost the game,. what are the odds of riot matching me with not one but 4 trolls
Toastey3 voteslink me the match in your history and i'll believe you
PDE5 Inhibitors3 votesYou're 5-24 your last two ranked games. I think you are the troll.
PDE5 Inhibitors3 votesLol, you a dumb dumb.
Toastey4 votesWell played. Ya got me. Your flawless, fluid argument has completely countered my points and you've wrecked me.
PDE5 Inhibitors2 votesQuestion: do you think this would do anything? There are people trolling in your games BECAUSE they don't get punished. So, they are left to troll countless games. If this system were in place, you would not get any LPs back because nobody is punished. I'm guessing you didn't think before you posted, hence...you a dumb dumb.
Toastey4 votesWOW. FANTASTIC. IF THIS SYSTEM COULD SINGLE-HANDEDLY ELIMINATE TOXIC PLAYERS AND TROLLS...BY GOD, IT'S DONE IT'S JOB.
Mate, I don't think you realise that the intent of the system is twofold. First, it would prevent players from unfair punishment if they get matched with trolls, griefers, etc. Second, it would eliminate a large portion of the trolls' motivations and put in place a structured system in which there are clearly defined rules and clearly defined punishments. Trolls would know exactly what they were risking if they decided to troll, and they would know that they wouldn't even get to ruin anyone's game. I'm not sure you read the entire OP, but here's the pertinent passage for you:
"That, and the system for punishing players should be more robust to facilitate...a better overall competitive experience for those who wish to play the game seriously."
You've basically agreed with me. If the system could eliminate trolls by a motivational proxy of sorts, then there would be no need for LP refunds. You're right. We'd have (surprise, surprise):
"[A] more accurate representation of players' position on the ladder."
PDE5 Inhibitors2 votesThere are supposedly defined rules already. The problem is they don't enforce them. Making your new system would literally do nothing because, surprise, they still wouldn't enforce them. People would still go, "just had a bad game, rito".
You're asking them to solve a problem that they don't think exist, dumb dumb.
Toastey4 votesWhich portion of "more robust system" do you not understand? A robust system is structured, defined, transparent, and well-enforced. It has proper processing, a proper staff, and proper resources. I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me for the sake of disagreement, or if you're actively defending the malpractice of Riot Games.
PDE5 Inhibitors2 votesWhat part of "they don't think it's a problem" do you not understand?
Toastey4 votesThat has nothing to do with my original propositions or arguments. In fact, I'm sitting here proposing these things specifically because they don't think it's a problem and that it is a problem.
PDE5 Inhibitors2 votesUhm, how does them not thinking it's a problem have nothing to do with your "proposition"? I would think it's kind of the most important thing, since they are the ones that would put it in lmfao.
Toastey4 votes===The Point----> 10m 9m 8m 7m 6m 5m 4m 3m 2m 1m 0m -The Sand- [-.-] <- Your head
gimeurmonies3 votesur a dumb dumb fucker
Deep Terror Nami2 votes"Hey this guy gave first blood and didn't perform well, report him so we don't lose LP."
Great idea.
Toastey4 votesThe refund would only work if the player got punished, not if they got reported. The system wouldn't be abusable because it'd have to go through Riot's filter and approval before anything is given back.
Deep Terror Nami1 votesYa, and people would be scrambling to make the punishment happen. It doesn't matter if they went through, they'd still be flooding the system with false reports. False reports make it harder for the system to work correctly.
Toastey3 votesare you assuming that the system doesn't already get flooded with false reports are you assuming that an actual system designed to do its job won't be able to tell the difference
Deep Terror Nami1 votesNo, I'm assuming it would become far worse than it already is. Giving players a direct benefit for reporting people is an extremely bad idea.
MaxisPrime3 votes[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mTEixk9f,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-10-21T08:32:11.304+0000)
Giving players a direct benefit for reporting people is an extremely bad idea.
I died.
Vherdel2 votesAgreed, this will only increase the amount of unjustified reports. BUT he also states that the player should actually be punished. This means that tribunal, or whatever, should actually agree that this player deserved the report.
I find that people far to often don't report players who deserve it because they have the feeling reporting doesn't help. There is no feedback to the reporter when their reports are justified and the reported player has been punished.
Just knowing that there's actually a decent representation of a players behavior in games people might tend to behave better.
Or maybe just knowing that your 'place in the ladder' decides who you'll be grouped up with might prevent players from going AFK, flame or troll.
We all know that it's usually a type of person who does this. So he'll likely do it all the time. Enjoy being grouped up with 4 more people just like you.
Toastey2 votesExactly; make some sort of low-priority queue with long queue times and full of punished players. It's not a difficult or even novel concept. As for unjustified reports, I think it's actually better to a) have lots of reports and have a portion of them be unjustified than to b) have too few reports wherein a portion of players not reported would have been punished.
Neraam2 votes.
Yuppers2 votesI don't agree completely with refunding the LP. It's a good idea if you're faced with afk'ers, but at the same time can take a DEEP turn for the worse when it comes to sour players. Like Deep Terror Name said, you can get reported for the smallest of things. Most could easily take advantage of that kind of system by just simply reporting someone if they do poorly in a game, so they remain the same elo.
However, it's not a bad idea. I'd vouch for a system where you get less LP if someone dc's or afk's a game. That way people couldn't abuse the system, and it makes it much easier for people to climb when dealing with that sorta stuff.
Also, I believe (from some page somewhere that I read) that they're working on reforming the punishment system right now; so that reports will be much more accurate and effective.
Toastey3 votesi just said it'd only refund if the report got approved and the player was actually punished
it's not a difficult concept
---player has negative, toxic impact on the game ---your team loses ---player is reported ---IF player is punished + IF you lost BECAUSE of that player --> then LP and MMR refunded
Yuppers2 votesIt will also mess with the elo system and the way it is. If they refunded LP for whenever someone was fully reported, then some people would only EVER raise in elo; not because of skill, but because of the refund and how often players can get reported. You could end up in too high of an elo that you don't belong in, and it can make climbing harder for other people too. Like I said, there's a good concept behind the idea... but the refund could really mess with things and make issues that don't need to be there.
Toastey3 votesThat's not how a ladder system works, friend. If somehow, through some freak unlikely edge case, someone climbs solely because of LP refunds and they end up somewhere they don't belong, then they'll underperform relative to their peers who deserve to be at that level. They'll do badly, they'll lose, and they'll drop. It's a self-adjusting system; the entire point of playing is to increase sample size and the increase the chances that you're placed properly. It is incredibly, incredibly unlikely that someone will experience unchanging net positive LP gain simply because of refunds from punished players. Think about it. You'd have to get trolled every single game you lose, AND the troll would have to be punished.
Additionally, I see no way that it would make it harder for people to climb if they actually deserve to climb. If you won a free game because someone on the enemy team is trolling and feeding, you don't deserve that LP. You should never have been awarded that LP. I never even proposed taking LP away from players on the winning end of a troll, but even if you did take that LP away, it was entirely undeserved in the first place.
This proposition, if implemented, wouldn't mess with the system; rather it would make the system better by removing outliers (trolls and griefers and similar) and preventing players from being unfairly rewarded or punished just because they were matched with such outliers. If there ever arises a case of fraud in which a player or set of players is abusing the system, the punishment should be structured, systematic, clear, and severe.
Yuppers2 votes[{quoted}](name=Toasted Pigeon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mTEixk9f,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-10-21T21:27:51.076+0000)
That's not how a ladder system works, friend. If somehow, through some freak unlikely edge case, someone climbs solely because of LP refunds and they end up somewhere they don't belong, then they'll underperform relative to their peers who deserve to be at that level. They'll do badly, they'll lose, and they'll drop. It's a self-adjusting system; the entire point of playing is to increase sample size and the increase the chances that you're placed properly. It is incredibly, incredibly unlikely that someone will experience unchanging net positive LP gain simply because of refunds from punished players. Think about it. You'd have to get trolled every single game you lose, AND the troll would have to be punished.
Additionally, I see no way that it would make it harder for people to climb if they actually deserve to climb. If you won a free game because someone on the enemy team is trolling and feeding, you don't deserve that LP. You should never have been awarded that LP. I never even proposed taking LP away from players on the winning end of a troll, but even if you did take that LP away, it was entirely undeserved in the first place.
This proposition, if implemented, wouldn't mess with the system; rather it would make the system better by removing outliers (trolls and griefers and similar) and preventing players from being unfairly rewarded or punished just because they were matched with such outliers. If there ever arises a case of fraud in which a player or set of players is abusing the system, the punishment should be structured, systematic, clear, and severe.
Mmm, you create a vary solid point for your reasoning, and I truly do respect that view. It could very well be a fantastic idea for uniforming the LP system that we currently have; as it could help out players who got stuck with those that do not take Ranked as seriously as they should.
However, we may not be able to see eye to eye. You've got fantastic points, but something about the idea rubs me off the wrong way; not because your reasoning isn't just, but for reasons I can't really understand myself. It's kind of one of the those moments that you can't really explain (don't have an explanation for), I just get the spookies from it.
All in all, you've got a great concept that I feel that Riot could take into account. From what I understand, they're currently reworking the system so it runs more effectively. Hopefully they can see this kind of thread, so we could implement some diversity in punishments so that we could make them even more accurate.
Good thread btw.