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Vent Thread: Tanks May Not be Garbage, But the Idea of Innate Tankiness Is Dead

Meep Man··39 votes·10,864 views

I am, to be 100% honest with you on this one, sick and tired of even attempting to play immobile, durability focused champions. The idea of just being able to soak damage and not die is dead this patch. You could be fed off your ass as a Tank, but if you don't have an ability that innately makes you near invincible like untargetability, huge ass percent damage reduction, or actual invincibility, you just delay the inevitable. Honestly, I wish Riot would treat defense the same way they treat offense, as it bugs me to hell and back this Season how we have slowly gone from a meta where Tanks were fine and strong to a meta where the only viable Tanks are those used for their almost undodgeable crowd control and damage that make them borderline bruisers. Allow me to vent and go over the innate problems with the fantasy of "Unbreakable Tank" this patch.

1. The Number of Ways to Ignore/Reduce Tankiness Has Never Been Higher

Items w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics item 3153 item 3147 item 3814 item 1416 item 3031 item 3165 item 3033 item 3020 item 3071 item 3135 item 3142 item 3151 item 3036

Champions w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics Aatrox Ahri Amumu Brand Camille Chogath Corki Darius DrMundo Elise Fiora Galio Gangplank Garen Gnar Gragas JarvanIV Jayce Karthus Kayle Kayn Kindred Kled KogMaw Malzahar Maokai MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Ornn Poppy RekSai Renekton Sejuani Shen Shyvana Singed Sion Syndra TahmKench Trundle Twitch Varus Vayne Velkoz Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac

Runes w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics

  • Conqueror
  • Cut Down
  • Cheap Shot
  • Sudden Impact

It's actually ridiculous how common place ignoring or reducing the effectiveness of Tank stats is in this game. A solid 52 out of 141 champions have an ability that ignores or reduces the effectiveness of Tank stats, and at least another 50 of them commonly build at least two of the above mentioned items AND even more champions join the above mentioned list if you were to include everyone that uses Conqueror, which innately turns everyone into a tank shredder because there is so much damage in this game that even just 20% of your damage ignoring reduction is enough to push you over the edge and let you kill the tank. Now, you might say "But wait, Lethality and Flat Magic Pen affect Tanks less than others". For most of the game, sure, but early game, no. It affects them just the same. Why? Well, let me lead you to my second point.

2. Tank Base Stats Are Hardly Distinguishable From Fighter Or Sometimes Even Mage/Assassin Base Stats

Below is a full list of Tank champions and their base stats that act as Tank base stats:

Alistar Alistar Health- 613 (+106 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.85 per level) Armor- 44 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Amumu Amumu Health- 613 (+84 per level) Health Regen.- 9 (+0.85 per level) Armor- 33 (+3.8 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Leona Leona Health- 576 (+87 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.85 per level) Armor- 47 (+3.6 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Malphite Malphite Health- 574 (+90 per level) Health Regen.- 7 (+0.55 per level) Armor- 37 (+3.75 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Maokai Maokai Health- 565 (+95 per level) Health Regen.- 5 (+0.75 per level) Armor- 39 (+4 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Nautilus Nautilus Health- 576 (+86 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.55 per level) Armor- 35.5 (+3.75 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Ornn Ornn Health- 565 (+90 per level) Health Regen.- 7 (+0.8 per level) Armor- 33 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Rammus Rammus Health- 564 (+86 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.55 per level) Armor- 36 (+4.3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Sejuani Sejuani Health- 560 (+88 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.85 per level) Armor- 31 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 27.1 (+0.75 per level) (lol wtf)

Sion Sion Health- 542 (+73 per level) (great) Health Regen.- 9 (+0.8 per level) Armor- 32 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Zac Zac Health- 615 (+95 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.5 per level) Armor- 33 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32 (+1.25 per level)

Braum Braum Health- 576 (+87 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+1 per level) Armor- 47 (+4 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Galio Galio Health- 562 (+112 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.8 per level) Armor- 24 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32 (+1.25 per level)

Poppy Poppy Health- 540 (+90 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.8 per level) Armor- 38 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32 (+1.25 per level)

Shen Shen Health- 540 (+85 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.75 per level) Armor- 34 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

TahmKench Tahm Kench Health- 610 (+95 per level) Health Regen.- 6.5 (+0.55 per level) Armor- 47 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Taric Taric Health- 575 (+90 per level) Health Regen.- 6 (+0.5 per level) Armor- 40 (+3.4 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Chogath Cho'Gath Health- 574 (+80 per level) (good) Health Regen.- 9 (+0.85 per level) Armor- 38 (+3.5 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Ok, these are their base stats. Some are clearly just bad without explanation. Cho'Gath, Sejuani, Shen, and Sion all just have random piss poor stats and for what reason? Usually the excuse is "They have mechanics in their kit that grant them a lot of defenses". YEAH, WELL IF YOU ARE JUST GONNA REDUCE MY INNATE TANKINESS, WHAT'S THE GOD DAMN POINT IN HAVING THOSE DEFENSIVE MECHANICS!? I swear, the whole "negative compensation" thing is so bullshit for some of these Tanks and is hardly applied anywhere else. If a champion has a million dashes, you don't see them running around with 325 movement speed or less. If a champion has some insane damage steroid, you don't see them running around with really low attack damage or attack speed. No, they just have normal stats and those boosts in their kits are actual boosts and not filling in the hole Riot gave the champion just because they have those boosts. If a champion is somehow TOO durable because of a boost, nerf the boost, don't gut their base stats.

Now, for the rest, let's look at some Fighters that are commonly played these days as a comparison:

Camille Camille Health- 575 (+85 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.8 per level) Armor- 35 (+3.8 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Renekton Renekton Health- 572 (+87 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.75 per level) Armor- 35 (+3.8 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Darius Darius Health- 582 (+100 per level) Health Regen.- 10 (+0.95 per level) Armor- 39 (+4 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Aatrox Aatrox Health- 610 (+80 per level) Health Regen.- 5 (+0.25 per level) Armor- 33 (+3.25 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Kled Kled Health- 740 (+130 per level) Health Regen.- 6 (+0.75 per level) Armor- 35 (+4 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

MasterYi Master Yi Health- 598 (+92 per level) Health Regen.- 7.5 (+0.65 per level) Armor- 33 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Garen Garen Health- 616 (+84 per level) Health Regen.- 8 (+0.5 per level) Armor- 36 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Yasuo Yasuo Health- 523 (+87 per level) Health Regen.- 6.5 (+0.9 per level) Armor- 30 (+3.4 per level) Magic Resist- 30 (+1.25 per level)

Riven Riven Health- 558 (+86 per level) Health Regen.- 7 (+0.5 per level) Armor- 33 (+3.2 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Jax Jax Health- 592 (+85 per level) Health Regen.- 8.5 (+0.55 per level) Armor- 36 (+3 per level) Magic Resist- 32.1 (+1.25 per level)

Notice anything? Anything familiar? Oh yeah, because majority of these Fighters have comparable if not sometimes nearly identical base stats to a lot of the Tanks above. Majority of Tanks might have maybe 3 more Health per level, maybe 0.4 or so more Armor per level or 5 to 8 extra starting Armor, but otherwise... nah, pretty much the same. For the first few levels, Tanks are essentially just as durable as Fighters. "But Tanks have defensive steroids!" Yes, so do Fighters, and sometimes they are even stronger. A Tank would die for Fiora's Riposte. A Tank would die for Jax's Counterstrike. A Tank would die for a sudden 750 extra health like Renekton's Dominus. A Tank would ESPECIALLY die to have a sudden 60% damage reduction, fading down to 30% as well as a ton of extra innate armor like Garen's Courage. Instead, Tanks are stuck with defensive steroids like Sejuani's huge boost, but only for 2 seconds and not on command. Or Sion and Nautilus' shields that usually don't last more than 2.5 seconds at best. Or Leona's boost to Armor and Magic Resist that hardly matters due to all the anti-Armor and Magic Resist mechanics in the game.

3. Tank Items Are Innately Less Gold Efficient Than Offensive Items

Honestly, this stat should speak for itself.

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gold_efficiency/Finished_Items

Take a short browse through here and you'll find the absolutely absurd difference in efficiency between Tank and Offensive items.

I'm sorry Riot, but I almost feel like quitting and taking a break for a decent bit right now. As someone who enjoys longer fights and feeling like something more durable than a rotten log, I'm very disappointed in the state of the game right now and the seeming lack of changes on the PBE right now that plan on fixing it.

Edit: Yeah, you know what, Im done. Unless my friends want me to play, Im done playing this game. Sick and tired of having to either be a hyper mobile Bruiser, absolute burst cannon, or the former's shield or heal lackey. Until this game gets fixed and I can play a Tank again and not feel like I'm meat for whatever wolves the enemy team is playing, you won't catch me playing this game solo.

62 Comments

Elite4Runner15 votes

I honestly appreciate how much effort you put into making this post.

Meep Man1 votes

I probably couldn't do it right now. Having the same thing happen game after game though except for the one time the enemy picks a champion that doesn't stack Anti-Tank effects (Heim) early on can give you lots of energy to work with.

wildfox998 votes

Items w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics item 3153 item 3147 item 3814 item 1416 item 3031 item 3165 item 3033 item 3020 item 3071 item 3135 item 3142 item 3151 item 3036

Champions w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics Aatrox Ahri Amumu Brand Camille Chogath Corki Darius DrMundo Elise Fiora Galio Gangplank Garen Gnar Gragas JarvanIV Jayce Karthus Kayle Kayn Kindred Kled KogMaw Malzahar Maokai MasterYi Mordekaiser Nasus Olaf Ornn Poppy RekSai Renekton Sejuani Shen Shyvana Singed Sion Syndra TahmKench Trundle Twitch Varus Vayne Velkoz Vi MonkeyKing XinZhao Yasuo Yorick Zac

Runes w/ Anti-Tank Stat Mechanics

  • Conqueror
  • Cut Down
  • Cheap Shot
  • Sudden Impact

actually many of the items/runes/champions you mentined doesn't really counter tanks

flat armor / magic penetration doesn't bother them too much (while % penetration is too effective atm),some of the champion you mentioned doesn't really counter tanks but have an anti-tank mechanic that helps them to deal with tanky opponents without giving them more damage

just some examples:

Zac he'd be too weak against tanks without his W Gragas same as zac,8% of max HP with a CD won't oneshot a tank,it just helps him Ahri 140 + 35% AP true damage won't make her a threat for a tank,it help her due her really low damage output,without it a tank could literally stand still and kill her with item 3068 or just spam dance until she goes OOM Elise same as zac and grag . . . and so on

the problem comes when a champion can spam % hp and true damage/high % penetration

a nice example would be Vayne and her W,if she could proc it once it wouldn't be a big problem for a tank,but since she can do it continuously the tank will melt

all the % penetration on the board + conqueror makes any AD champion a "vayne's W",so you could as well have 600 armor and it'd be useless (if they can ignore a % of your armor buying it become less cost efficient) tanks items are fine,the problem are the AD items being too cost efficient (notice that even who play AP champion is complaining about AP items being weaker than the AD ones,but actually the AD ones are too strong) and giving too much %penetration and true damage

TheSingularity2 votes

Scroll up a little. Don't wanna spam.

AP items definitely aren't a problem. But lethality +armor pen is horifying regardless of how tanky you think you are

Wacky95 votes

If tanks started with inherent tankiness then they wouldn't need to build tank. The idea behind this is that tanks start out with slightly less than tanky stats because otherwise you could build damage on them. Plus that early in the game every amount of damage reduction matters. But with Conqueror early game armor shred is strong and most champions have kits that allow them to blow apart tanks in late game unless they scale hard out of control. Lethality isn't a problem for tanks. Serrated Dirk negates 10 armor at max level. It costs 1100 gold. Cloth armor has 15 armor for 300 gold. As long as you build an armor item first (which is pretty restrictive) lethality will never be that big of a problem for tanks.

Random Question: What anti-tank ability does Karthus have?

DragonShea3 votes

{quoted}

If tanks started with inherent tankiness then they wouldn't need to build tank. The idea behind this is that tanks start out with slightly less than tanky stats because otherwise you could build damage on them. Plus that early in the game every amount of damage reduction matters. But with Conqueror early game armor shred is strong and most champions have kits that allow them to blow apart tanks in late game unless they scale hard out of control. Lethality isn't a problem for tanks. Serrated Dirk negates 10 armor at max level. It costs 1100 gold. Cloth armor has 15 armor for 300 gold. As long as you build an armor item first (which is pretty restrictive) lethality will never be that big of a problem for tanks.

Random Question: What anti-tank ability does Karthus have?

That is a bad philosophy because what riot failed to do is give them poor damage scaling. High base damage is fine in the early game but they should get punished for deviation from their role as a tank. Riot has never thought of that and have instead given some tanks (MalphiteGalio and Gragas ) more damage or even shifted them into a pseudo bruiser role. Tanks need some damage to be a threat yes, but they need to have good base tankiness as well as being forced to building tanky. if they are to fulfill their role well.

Karthus's wall slows and reduces MR

GigglesO4 votes

Or we could just rebuff tank items and masteries so that anyone can have access to durability...

The only reason those items were gutted was because assassins couldn’t 100-0 people through tank items... which they shouldn't be able to do anyways...

TheSingularity2 votes

Am curious is that should meant to be shouldn't?

GigglesO1 votes

Thanks, Fixed.

TempName548465 votes

items and anti-tank mechanics

proceeds to list shit that's countered by tanks and that counters squishies, okay buddy.

TheSingularity2 votes

Actually a full build zed who had all 3 lethality items, mortal reminder, bloodthirster and his boots. Bought me as naut with cinderhulk, warmogs, deadmans, stoneplate, righteous glory and tabi down to below 500 health with his combo. That's through my W and stoneplate active. That's about 7000 hp and 250 ish armor. And he smashed that down to under 500 with a full combo that I apparently counter. A redemption and raka ult came down and saved my ass so didn't die.

But I counter lethality? Didn't feel like it.

TempName548461 votes

first off that build is absolute trash, secondly stop playing nautilus jungle, last but not least post the replay or a clip because this is simply not possible in the game called league of legends.

TheSingularity1 votes

Was like 2 weeks ago so idk how I can get a clip. Will try and get my mate to do it to me tonight, but that's in like 12 hour. As for the build. What do you dislike? He needs a mana/cdr item so item 3800 as item 3110 just sucks atm for a rush item. Stoneplate for the W ratio and the little mr I needed. Warmogs, cinderhulk is pretty standard and i don't see a problem with tabi or deadmans.

TempName548461 votes

righteous, cinder and deadmans makes sense that's about it though. never build warmogs on a hard engage tank its pointless and if you do build stoneplate its a massive waste to not build locket as well. basically the build is like a bipolar teenager that can't seem to decide what they want to do.

TheSingularity1 votes

Respectively disagree. I feel my item choices are appropriate for the way I prefer to play nautilus, as a peeling warden rather than a hard engage vanguard. Probably should've grabbed a locket but I really needed more beef than locket offered. If I see an easy pick I'll take it, I just prefer to protect my carries and feel nauts kit is very good for this purpose. (Hook, snare and multi target knock up). So I get warmogs as the cdr and health bonus to W allows more frequent and stronger tanking of poke while being able to easily heal up if the poke is nuts. More cdr=more peel

Stoneplate is easy mr if you don't need a whole lot and if we get hard engaged on is an easy response for instant beef and health bonus on a health based tank. But again agree. Probs coulda sold boots for locket.

AirKingNeo4 votes

Ghostblade, Duskblade, and Edge of Night DO NOT HAVE ANY ANTI-TANK EFFECTS! Cheap Shot and Sudden Impact ARE NOT ANTI-TANK EFFECTS! #FLAT ARMOR PEN IS NOT AN ANTI-TANK EFFECT!

Meep Man2 votes

Now, you might say "But wait, Lethality and Flat Magic Pen affect Tanks less than others". For most of the game, sure, but early game, no. It affects them just the same. Why? Well, let me lead you to my second point.

By the time the enemy has Lethality, which is fairly early on, you likely don't have your 100+ Armor yet. And it wouldn't be all that major if the only source of anti-armor and anti-magic resist was Sorc Boots and Serrated Dirk in the early game... but Runes and innate champions mechanics have helped make early lethality usually cut at least half of your early game Armor as a Tank.

Having an enemy build item 3147 into a item 3071 into a item 3033 essentially reduces your Armor enough as a Tank to where you are within Armor range for Lethality to make you a squishy again. Thing is, though, you often don't see an enemy even need to build Last Whisper because the combination of Conqueror + Other Anti-Armor runes + Black Cleaver + Lethality makes them ignore your defenses enough that they should have no hard time killing you and allow them to set you behind in gold enough as a Tank that you won't even have the Armor for them to have to build a Last Whisper item.

AirKingNeo1 votes

what assassin builds cleaver and mortal reminder?

DragonShea3 votes

I wrote a post recently about how to fix the damage creep in the game. I mention that tanks should get +243 - 307 HP up to 600 - 800 extra HP At lv 18 and a +15 buff to tank items. Right now damage in the game needs to be fix and tanks need more baseline tankiness because without that, they are gonna die as fast as an assassin.

Phoneutria3 votes

The game is dead, move on.

Void Kaiju2 votes

12 of the anti tank mechanic champs you listed were tanks. And I didn't even count the juggernauts. Buffing base resistances is hard because if a tank gets fed they get their respectable bases from the level advantage and just invest in making themselves super hard to kill. I had a chogath game recently where despite the enemy having over a 7k gold lead, because I won lane as chogath they could barely touch me and when we started grouping we completely turned the game around. I had a pile of armor and mr, 63 tenacity, and a boatload of percent hp damage and sustained damage and nearly 10k health by the end of the game.

Inmate tankiness being lacking is frustrating though. They lack the tools to snowball like damage dealers. Doran's shield and most early armor and mr buys are either expensive or super mediocre.

A part of the issue though is that tanks shouldn't necessarily be aiming to 1v1 all the time or just sponge damage all the time. They have lots of utility to play around, and with the current meta you need to focus on bringing that utility to bear against your enemies asap. In the meta of burst or be bursted, using cc at the right time to interrupt the enemy's burst window will likely spell their doom if you have a teammate with you.

Buffing tanks is iffy because there's so little you can do to them if they are even or ahead with just flat damage. That's why there are so many Anti tank mechanics. I do think tanks getting instant bursted is frustrating. But you just need to remember you have strengths outside of just being bulky so you can still be useful when behind. wish there were a deathcap equivalent for armor mr or something to help sponge a little longer.

TheSingularity1 votes

Buffing tanks directly isn't the way to go, will agree. However I feel increasing the cost of items along with their stats could go a long way in helping them take damage and feel powerful again.

Teridax682 votes

Part of the problem I think is that Riot is deathly afraid of stalling games. Every change they've made since Preseason 6 has been aimed at accelerating the pace of matches, and I feel they still remember the Cinderhulk meta as one where matches were a fair bit longer. This is why durability has been reduced across the board, from tanks to turrets, and why tanks have been compensated with damage instead. In Riot's mind, a game in which anything is tanky is a game that lasts longer, and they absolutely do not want that.

If this were a foundational component to League, perhaps that could've been okay, but right now the game is stuck in this awkward situation where there are a whole bunch of champions who are meant to be tanky by design, but who aren't allowed to be truly durable. In turn, this creates a ton of balancing problems, since these champions often do things they weren't originally intended to do (i.e. output lots of damage), while also suffering from the lack of the strength they're supposed to have (e.g. dying too quickly, or getting kited too easily, because they cannot survive sufficiently long enough).

In order to fix this, Riot needs to find a solution where tanks can be tanky, but where games still last within their desired window. Until then, the balancing of tanks, and the game as a whole, will continue to be a mess.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Rip Rammus Taric Galio Malphite Poppy and Sejuani You have a windowed / conditional Armor buff But your base armor is that much lower for it so you basically even out at what you should have had in the first place. So your Buff is that much weaker For it because a good amount of it is making up the stats you should have had in the first place. Riot Is just bad at balanceing and throw around True damage too much And % hp damage too much. The also over do Mobility CC and Damage (in certain ways) and Range Strength (kit cost) but I wont go into these. The only Balanced application of true damage i see Is the cheap shot rune. Cut down rune is dumbness get extra damage versus people building to negate damage because they are either too slow or scale to bad with damage to build damage.

Lohrr1 votes

Garen gets bonus mr too, not just armor. But, this is actually the reason I play Leona a lot right now. Her bonus is actually pretty decent, along with a lot of cc makes her still viable as a tank. Sejuani is like a paper tank to me (she's really tanky, until she starts getting hit). I mean, if you can keep your target from hitting you more than 5 times (at 2.5 attack speed), then you're ok. But any real duration of tanking and you turn into mush. It's the most backwards thing ever. And the cd on it needs to drop to 8 or 10 seconds so it'll be up when you reach the next camp. I used to love Rammus for his super tank possibilities, until they nerfed his mr. He's still useful, but not in as many situations. They used his win rate to justify nerfing him, and the nerf wasn't too horrible, but if a champ only has certain times when he's played, then the win rate should go up not down, since the times when they shine are more obvious, and nerfing the times when they don't shine as much just means those who play the champion will only pick them when they shine. But that's another story. The real theme of late seems to be create situations to get kills. They're nerfing people's abilities to escape / live, and increasing damage (especially burst damage). That tells me they want people to die a lot. They want snowballing to increase, and they don't want anything (like a tank) standing in the way of a penta. My guess is that the "wow he survived that" moments are less appealing to Riot than the "surprise you're dead" moments. I'm sure it will change again at some point. But, we're in a burst meta, and moving towards an increase in sustained damage (if I understand right - buffs to adcs) so tanks aren't going to get more viable soon. I feel ya, I really do, but all you can do is adapt and wait for the cycle to move back to tanks (if they decide they don't want to get rid of tanks entirely). It could partially be my fault for building the "Let's turret dive, because I can tank it for 30 seconds" builds. The builds that got so tanky, I didn't need minions to be nearby to take down 1/3 of their health and walk away with 4/5 of mine. My advice would be to find a good burst champion, or someone who can abuse item 3095 for a bit. Or you could play MasterYi, get item 3508, and figure out the bug that let's you get 0 cooldown on your q.

GigglesO7 votes

That’s the problem some of us actually don’t enjoy instantly killing... it gets boring when you do it 100% of the time.

TheSingularity7 votes

Pretty much this. I like peeling as a role and keeping my carries safe. Feels great to ruin a zeds day while my carries devour them. Not much of a thing nowadays

GigglesO2 votes

How are you supposed to defend against assassins when they cried that supports and tanks negated them... That was their job, now I don't even know what tanks and supports do, they kinda just die.

TheSingularity1 votes

They don't die as such. But carries die to a fken breeze so there's little to do especially vs talon.

I haven't touched tanks for a lil while. Miss being this fat monster that only vayne has a chance of killing

GigglesO1 votes

Well I mean I just played against a lulu, and she half healthed me through 100 MR (50% damage reduction)... So I guess thats balanced, being a control support mage nuke thing...

I just miss actual strategy coming into the game.

Solargeo1 votes

Garen's an offtank.

ZackTheWaffleMan7 votes

He's a jugg, yeah

Automated Riven1 votes

My only question after all of this is why do garen and Darius have such damn high health Regen. Especialista with the sustain in their kit. :/

Ralanr1 votes

As a Sion player who got his Health Regen nerfed, I agree.

Automated Riven1 votes

Same with riven. She used to have ten and it got dropped to 5.5 because of her shield. And now it just got buffed to 7.

Ralanr1 votes

I kiiinda get it with Riven because of how mobile she is, she can get out of fights easier on the regen her health pretty decently.

Automated Riven1 votes

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that riven's wasn't warranted at the time. I'm saying that garen and Darius don't need it when they already are strong in lane and have built in sustain.

Ralanr1 votes

Right. Sorry, I have a bit of a defensive trigger against Riven. Nothing personal to you, I just had too many bad experiences with Riven and everytime I see one I can feel my ass clench.

Automated Riven2 votes

That's ok. XD. Most people assume I am toxic as fuck because I main riven. And also assume I just want her to be the most overpowered champ in the game. .

They are wrong but it's kinda funny. I took no offense.

Solargeo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mQRQFcGT,comment-id=000b0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-16T00:04:22.360+0000)

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that riven's wasn't warranted at the time. I'm saying that garen and Darius don't need it when they already are strong in lane and have built in sustain.

Garen's Sustain is a passive that needs him to be lv 11 to actually be powerful enough for a sustain.

Automated Riven1 votes

Garens passive is very impactful in lane. It forces you to interact with him to keep his passive from ticking on and passively winning the lane through an HP advantage. It's just not overbearing until level 11. The issue is that riot has nerfed lane bullies (see riven and sion) because they have shields and when paired with high health Regen makes it very dificult to make damage stick. Now garen and Darius have the best in class sustain and well as the best in class health Regen. I was just pointing out that for champions with sustain they should have lower health Regen so damage sticks easier.

Honestly considering the toplane roster now riven Jax and sion have the lowest sustain. Because Jax only has counterstrike, sion only has a shield and the same with riven (oh and renekton).

Whereas Darius has a spell that is spammable that heals. Fiora has ult and passive. Camille had passive and w. And then there is kled who gets a refreshing half hp shield and of course Mundo and the likes of maokai. And of course aatrox.

(FTR I don't think riven needs to be buffed. Nor do I think others need to be nerfed. I am just frustrated that riven had her HP Regen of 10 per 5 halfed because she was too much of a lane bully, and then we have Darius who had 10 HP per 5 and is also a lane bully and scales better then riven used too and has far more sustain then she ever did)

Solargeo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mQRQFcGT,comment-id=000b000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-07-16T17:41:07.373+0000)

Garens passive is very impactful in lane. It forces you to interact with him to keep his passive from ticking on and passively winning the lane through an HP advantage. It's just not overbearing until level 11. The issue is that riot has nerfed lane bullies (see riven and sion) because they have shields and when paired with high health Regen makes it very dificult to make damage stick. Now garen and Darius have the best in class sustain and well as the best in class health Regen. I was just pointing out that for champions with sustain they should have lower health Regen so damage sticks easier.

Honestly considering the toplane roster now riven Jax and sion have the lowest sustain. Because Jax only has counterstrike, sion only has a shield and the same with riven (oh and renekton).

Whereas Darius has a spell that is spammable that heals. Fiora has ult and passive. Camille had passive and w. And then there is kled who gets a refreshing half hp shield and of course Mundo and the likes of maokai. And of course aatrox.

(FTR I don't think riven needs to be buffed. Nor do I think others need to be nerfed. I am just frustrated that riven had her HP Regen of 10 per 5 halfed because she was too much of a lane bully, and then we have Darius who had 10 HP per 5 and is also a lane bully and scales better then riven used too and has far more sustain then she ever did)

So you agree early game Garen's Passive does not impact early game much? but mid and late game it is impactful?

Automated Riven1 votes

No. Garens passive has a very strong lane presence. As I said. It forces constant agressive actions from his lane opponent to constantly keep it on cooldown. Otherwise they simply get outsudtained by a huge margin and lose lane.

Solargeo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mQRQFcGT,comment-id=000b00000000000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-16T20:03:05.481+0000)

No. Garens passive has a very strong lane presence. As I said. It forces constant agressive actions from his lane opponent to constantly keep it on cooldown. Otherwise they simply get outsudtained by a huge margin and lose lane.

though if im garen normally om on top. is that a bad thing?

Automated Riven1 votes

I don't understand what your asking.

Solargeo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mQRQFcGT,comment-id=000b0000000000000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-16T22:30:53.320+0000)

I don't understand what your asking.

I normally go top lane with garen (if I play rift), is that normal or not?

Automated Riven1 votes

Yes, toplane garen is normal. What do you normally play?

Solargeo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Automated Riven,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mQRQFcGT,comment-id=000b000000000000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-16T22:58:36.783+0000)

Yes, toplane garen is normal. What do you normally play?

ARAM getting in to rift a bit more, though normally I play a couple mages as support ones when playing rift now a days to avoid tilting myself

Automated Riven1 votes

Ok. I would suggest looking on YouTube for some guides on laning. It's way more complicated then it looks if you wanna be good at it.

C9 Squeeky 1 votes

Tank items may be less gold efficient but they are also cheaper and that wiki doesn't always include the unique passive of tank items in the overall gold efficiency, mostly just the raw stats. The cheapest tank items are 300g for item 1029 and 425 for item 1033. The cheapest anti-tank item is item 3134 for 1100g (I'm not going to count item 3252 (which starts at 60% effectiveness and scales to 100% based on YOUR level. If you're behind, lethality is even worse for you). Except for a few component items like item 3035 for 1300g & item 3916 for 1500g and item 3020 for 1100g, you have to complete & finish the item to gain the most tank-shredding mechanics. Most tank items have HP on them which is the counter to True Damage, and it is generally good vs all types of damage, unlike Armor which is only effective vs Physical dmg, and MR vs Magic dmg. HP + resistance increases eHP, and is increased even higher if you have shields or a item 3083.

I can't argue about Tanks' base stat vs fighters/juggernauts, and runes do add new ways to kill tanks that old runes didn't. I do believe tanks should well, be what they should be: beefy meatballs. As long as they can't outdamage a carry, that's always been a vice of mine.

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