@riot why nerf singed HP

Big Lincoln·Jul 13, 2017·21 votes·1,900 views

I can concede that maybe his W is too strong for grounding effect now, and if you want more downtime on his ult that's fine i enjoy him enough that I will keep playing him

but why are you nerfing his health? he has LESS health than he would with old passive even without any mana items by end game. Singed is building damage again; lowering his HP will make him go back to tank items to make up the difference.

nerf his passive if that's the real problem right now, make it stack to less than 9 times as it does currently if you think he's too fast and too furious. don't discourage him from AP bruiser builds again

45 Comments

General Esdeath Jul 14, 20178 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mHHV7Qgr,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-07-13T23:02:32.042+0000)

but why are you nerfing his health? he has LESS health than he would with old passive even without any mana items by end game. Singed is building damage again; lowering his HP will make him go back to tank items to make up the difference.

there you go fam :^) it's what Riot is trying for. Less damage items.

Big LincolnJul 14, 20172 votes

Y tho

TwitchInMyPantsJul 14, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mHHV7Qgr,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2017-07-14T07:32:26.848+0000)

Y tho

I forget what season it started but the full ap singed thing didn't start until people discovered you could suicide on towers and lower your gold value and after that people realized hes most efficient if you abuse his Q as much as possible. Before that era you'd do RoA and then full tank so you have decent spell damage while still having strong fart damage. I think they want traditional singed to be best Singed since its less brutal to fight vs early and more satisfying for people who aren't Singed 420 and don't have perfect positioning.

Big LincolnJul 14, 20171 votes

right but he only goes ryliandry's as it is and then full tank w/ abyssal. that's about as AP bruiser as you can be in season 7

Bob the ToastrJul 14, 20173 votes

Because it would interfere with their ADC master race meta.

General Esdeath Jul 14, 20172 votes

I think their idea for Singed is a tanky guy that has to play the map to force you to chase him and blow cooldowns to stop him, or let him be free.

LyingOnLineJul 13, 20177 votes

Presumably so that can actually be killed if he's caught.

Big LincolnJul 14, 20173 votes

the ult CD nerfs accomplish that

double-nerfing his durability is going to be really shitty to deal with. riot should do one or the other, both is excessive

JunkοJul 14, 20172 votes

What's wrong with reverting a buff they gave him with his rework?

FantasySniperJul 14, 20177 votes

Scrapping his passive was actually highly demanded by Singed mains. Singed only built Tear because his passive demanded it for the health scaling. Now if he needs mana, all he needs to do is build Catalyst.

They really should cap the MS he gets from his passive, and convert any overflow into extra duration.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 14, 20171 votes

I can't believe ppl still believe this crap in s7. Tear was crap on him even with the old passive. Roa gave singed everything he wanted from tear + more HP.

JunkοJul 14, 20171 votes

Archangel was really good on Singed since S3 until tank items like Righteous Glory were introduced into the game, along with Archangel price going up for no reason.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 14, 20172 votes

that's 4 season's ago.

Still saying his passive demanded it isn't true. I won't claim to know how the game played back then, i started at the end of s4/preseason 5.

But ever since i played him it was never good, i've seen it refered to as a noob trap multiple times. Singed wants HP so Roa seems like the better option no matter what. I just don't get how people can say his passive was garbage while also saying Tear was mandatory because of it. I've been flamed multiple times for not building it while it's garbage, and honestly it's starting to annoy me.

FantasySniperJul 15, 20172 votes

25% of his maximum mana scaled into health. Archangel's has the highest mana available at 1000, and has a passive that also scales mana into AP. Its component Tear is ridiculously easy to exploit for Singed, so you got extra health coming in during your laning phase.

The next highest mana item is Iceborn Gauntlet at 500, and after it lost AP it was completely disregarded.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 15, 20171 votes

which would be 250 health, ROA gives 500 + 400 mana so it gave 600 HP to singed + 100 AP which might be less than what Archangels(87 ap on it's own) can achieve, on singed it wouldn't have been that much of a difference as you barely build mana after your first item.

Roa's component Catalyst of aeons also gives sustain and so did catalyst the protector. The fact that singed has a toggleable ability makes this a free health regen bonus whenever you feel like, at the cost of some mana ofcourse.

FantasySniperJul 16, 20172 votes

Archangel's passive is based on maximum mana, not bonus, so it gave at least 100+ at any one time, but it was more realistically around 150+ with how late he usually finished it and with how he stacks other mana items.

It was built purely for stat efficiency, as it could hit 200% gold efficiency quite easily, giving him sizable damage on top of the health bonus.

Jerry SeinfeIdJul 16, 20171 votes

Yes it can give more but then you're forced to build mana, which limits your build options and flexibility when picking tank items.

FantasySniperJul 17, 20171 votes

Which is the point of reworking his passive, no?

Ariel the CruelJul 14, 20176 votes

They want to make suicide easier for proxy Singed. XD

AirKingNeoJul 14, 20172 votes

His passive stacks? I thought it just refreshes?

Big LincolnJul 14, 20172 votes

it stacks if you can run through multiple people before it expires, otherwise it refreshes

FlameanatorXJul 14, 20171 votes

What do you mean "otherwise it just refreshes?" You can't get it on the same champion more than once every 10 seconds, so the only way to get more than a single proc is to run through multiple people...

Darkdemon653Jul 13, 20171 votes

And fun fact - Singed is now the first and only non-assassin, melee champion in the history of League of Legends to not have a non-ultimate form of sustain, defense, or abnormally high health

AirKingNeoJul 14, 20171 votes

Base form Kayn

Darkdemon653Jul 14, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Base form Kayn

Go read his E.

DanjengJul 14, 20171 votes

Also Base form Kayn is only one of his forms, not a champion of its own. Darkin Kayn has a large amount of built in sustain.

FlameanatorXJul 14, 20171 votes

Hmm... at first I thought you were obviously wrong and trolling... But off the top of my head I actually can't think of any counter-examples.

JunkοJul 14, 20173 votes

I mean when you list like 6 different conditions of course almost every champion is going to met 1 of them.

Darkdemon653Jul 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I mean when you list like 6 different conditions of course almost every champion is going to met 1 of them.

It was a core design philosophy for melee champions to get sustain or defense. It then moved to non-assassin melees. And now it's . . .

JunkοJul 14, 20173 votes

This was only a design philosophy for melee ADC champions like Yasuo, Yi, Fiora, etc; that they had to have a defensive spell in their kit to make up for the fact they are melee.

It never applied to anybody else. It just happens that most tanks have durability in their kit because you know... they are tanks.

Darkdemon653Jul 14, 20171 votes

{quoted}

This was only a design philosophy for melee ADC champions like Yasuo, Yi, Fiora, etc; that they had to have a defensive spell in their kit to make up for the fact they are melee.

It never applied to anybody else. It just happens that most tanks have durability in their kit because you know... they are tanks.

Prior to changes to Eve, there was no melee champion with no defense or sustain.

Jinzo TorranceJul 13, 20171 votes

So he builds tank again, since they didn't want him to actually build AP

Big LincolnJul 13, 20175 votes

They nerfed Q base and raised the ratio

They absolutely wanted him building damage

Jinzo TorranceJul 13, 20171 votes

No, no, no. Even if they made it more rewarding to build AP, they didn't actually want Singed to build AP, they're nerfing his base HP so he can't build anything but tank so they go back to pre-update.

Big LincolnJul 13, 20171 votes

oh I get you

yeah probably not. we'll see how heavy the nerfs are when they drop I guess

FlameanatorXJul 14, 20171 votes

It's a ~5% (base) hp nerf at later levels, not big enough to gut building AP bruiser I'd say.

DoozkuJul 13, 20171 votes

Agreed, just laned against the new singed and his passive seems way too strong, atleast in the lane. The cd on that thing needs to be toned down heavily for early ranks, but have it scale back up for the mid and late game. Thinking that having it be 30 seconds at lvl would be fine?

20 minutesJul 14, 20172 votes

but you have to make a balancing act. singed is trash in late game. he doesn't deal enough damage as other AP bruiser, nor is he as tanky as tanks like Galio, Maokai, Mundo even if he builds full tank.

Singed may be dominant in early lane, that's fine. look at pantheon and quin top. there are so many hard counters against singed too, such as Yorick, Rumble, Pantheon, Quin, Fiora (not sure after nerf), Jayce, GP (if GP knows how to hit barrels), Kennen.

FlameanatorXJul 14, 20171 votes

Literally the exact opposite of the case. You do realize his ult scales up to 85 free armor, MR, AP, flat MS, HP5, and MR5, for 20 seconds, right? Plus, he gains a tremendous amount of power from quite a few item powerspikes, such as Rylei's + Liandry's. Sure he falls off a bit from his 4 item, level 16 throne when adc's finish their %pen+attk spd+AD+crit+lifesteal tank-busting core, but he's hardly trash even then, especially if you have a Righteous Glory to help with being an initiator/disruptor. Not to mention he'll always be strong at rotating around the map when he insta-clears waves by just walking through them, then instantly going to take turrets or flank.

AR URFJul 14, 20171 votes

Grounding on his w is necessary because all the recently released champs have so much mobility. I think his passive needs tweaking as well. The problem people have is that they still want to chase singed, just like Riven players. Don't chase a singed player and you'll be fine. if he flings you, than just run the opposite direction. It will be harder as it gets to the late game, but that's the only option for now.

Sire HippingtonJul 14, 20171 votes

Or maybe just nerf the rediculous damage on his Q a bit? Bufing the ap ratio from 0.6 to 0.8 was huge, maybe tone it down to 0.7... Or nerf the health but bring back the old one on top of the new to force him more into a mana focused built.(ok, apprently that's what they wanted to avoid with the rework) And nerfing the W certainly is needed. Also, his passive seems quite absrd, atleast especially in lane, nerfing that passive especially early on should help alot.

But just nerfing his tankiness is the totally wrong way to go about it.

Finally, we’re shifting Poison Trail’s damage from base values into scaling so Singed can feel good about building damage

Well, that's where riot fails in their thinking. In order to feel good about getting damage, you either need save ways to apply it(range, mobillity+quick burst), or you need enough base survivabillity to get away with it. It doesn't matter if an AP singed deals tons of damage if he just gets vaporized befor getting close to anyone.

For the saim reason, the Reksai rework fails. Her dominant built in high elo is once again tank, and even after the base nerf/ratio buff on pbe, she will either stay tank or fall of meta. On a kit like hers, you can't afford to be squishy, it does not work, so it doesn't matter how high her scaleings are, if she goes for off items, she will fall off pretty fast as she has no way to utilize that damage in teamifghts. If you want champs to get off-items, you need to make them rely less on def-items for their survivabillity(note that survivabillity is not equal tankiness), that's the only way.