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genuinely curious how Zac is supposed to be a healthier champion than he was

Big Lincoln··91 votes·3,898 views

before rework, i can dodge his E in early ganks and the worst he can do is slow me, probably not even that because it's short range

after rework, dodge his E but he Q'd the minion wave so I'm pulled backwards anyway, because the second part of the spell is targeted. so not only do I need to deep ward multiple areas for him, I also have to be far away from my minion wave at any point where he comes near my lane. even more fun in teamfights, where he can disrupt 2 people with displacements every 5 seconds

W is still the same spell, which is really funny to me because riot criticized Sejuani for passively radiating AoE and turned her into a damage-less stunmonkey (ha ha)

and let's not forget that amazing ult, where E->R gives you .1 seconds to flash out of it before he carries you across the lane to your death. and you can't CC him out of it either, so any capacity for him to actually fuck it up is minimized

so i'm just kinda wondering how Zac is better for the game? why should i ever take this champion off my permaban unless he drops to a 39% winrate again?

104 Comments

Jet Sett43 votes

Simple, his Q now generates two passive blobs and therefore he's "healthier"! Don't kill me...

Pale Pirate27 votes

I suppose torture will do then.

loli nukes12 votes

I think new zac ult is just worse than old zac ult, if he wanted to be the disruptor they could of changed old q to new q

Blakiepug12 votes

The Zac rework honestly just needs to be reverted. There was no reason for him to be changed in the first place, and now we don't have his unique disruption ult in the game which was the coolest thing about him. Now he is basically just a Ryze ult for enemies or a slightly charged up Poppy ult. They championed his rework as making him more unique, but it really didn't.

SociopathFriend3 votes

I like how every single rework has people saying it needs reverted- they're not going to.

At best they will push the rework back towards the original abilities, they don't just go back to it entirely.

If it was a bad design before, they're not going back because the current design is bad too.

RisenDarkKnight9 votes

They might, they reverted Kog'Maw, and he never was as permabanned as new Zac is. Also, new Zac is a problem in pro play too.

It really wasn't bad design, he was a relatively fun and modern champion with a respectable playerbase. Sure, his Q and W were not the most interesting skills, but a champion doesn't need all 5 abilities to be super crazy to be fun to play.

Blakiepug3 votes

{quoted}

I like how every single rework has people saying it needs reverted- they're not going to.

At best they will push the rework back towards the original abilities, they don't just go back to it entirely.

If it was a bad design before, they're not going back because the current design is bad too.

I realize chances are Riot is most likely going to keep ignoring all of us asking for reverts, but that doesn't mean we should just remain quiet on the issue. In Zac's case, I don't think he did have a bad design before. He was a unique champion that was fun to play and that most players would call balanced. That's why people are asking for a revert, not only because they prefer his old play style, but also because the rework took a champion who was relatively balanced and made him permaban worthy.

SociopathFriend1 votes

I realize chances are Riot is most likely going to keep ignoring all of us asking for reverts, but that doesn't mean we should just remain quiet on the issue

I get it, it's just not one rework has passed without relatively similar comments.

Look at Malzahar- reworked and Riot slowly kept tinkering until he reached a somewhat okay spot. They didn't just throw in the towel and put him back.

Going back to a bad design because the current design isn't entirely effective is not a good move. Which is a KEY difference in Kog's revert- his old W was 'okay', not bad.

flyingbaklava11 votes

As a Zac main, I prefered Zac before the rework. He did a lot more damage, was way more fun, required more skill to be successful, and, best of all, he wasn't hated on the same level as Yasuo. Hopefully, just like Kog'maw, he will get the revert he deserves and whoever thought turning him from a diver into a tank will get fired (out of a cannon).

Raiyza6 votes

Your username suggests that Zac needs a lava skin.

...

I agree.

Durzaka3 votes

Ive been asking for a lava skin for Zac since the day he was released. It just seems like such a natural fit.

flyingbaklava6 votes

Yes, a molten skin would be ideal. Get on that Riot.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

His damage was the only thing that needed nerfed pre rework.

flyingbaklava1 votes

He had a 51% winrate pre rework. Sounds pretty balanced to me, considering there are roughly 40 champions that have higher winrates right now.

KoKoboto6 votes

They kept the W because it's low cooldown enabled gameplay around his passive. Whereas the Q was just a line skillshot slow. Although Q has more "skill" to it you still spam both off CD, you play around W more though.

I think Zac is more healthy but they need to work on his Q more. I also don't think the change they made to E so that it basically guarantees an ultimate was needed. Zac is literally Ivern and they just buffed him right away and they refuse to go back on that buff.

I think Zac is more healthy because his old ult was just walk around and knock up everything and you couldn't really avoid it or play around it.

Durzaka6 votes

I also don't think the change they made to E so that it basically guarantees an ultimate was needed

This is actually the ONLY change he needed.

With 0.5 seconds to react to the ult, literally everything in the entire game could get out of it. It was nearly useless on launch

KoKoboto15 votes

Yeah a lot of people said Ivern was nearly useless on launch as well but :s

OyddAWqJ5r6 votes

The problem at Zac's launch was his damage. But they buffed his damage AND reliability.

As usual, they overstepped the buff/nerf of a "new" champ.

flyingbaklava3 votes

Just so you know, he lost over 60% of his ultimates potential damage in the rework.

Danjeng6 votes

I thought Zac was bad to go against before the rework. I thought they were going to add more counterplay or interactiveness in the rework. What happened? Q is the biggest offender imo. Point and click CC I can understand, but point and click ranged displacement is crazy.

flyingbaklava4 votes

Have you actually played as Zac? That is a rhetorical question, I know you haven't, because no one would say what you are saying who has actually played Zac since the rework.

Danjeng1 votes

No, I have never played Zac. I'm saying how it felt to play against Zac, and how it's even worse now that he's got more problems (due to the large buffs he has received, along with his new Q).

flyingbaklava2 votes

Your feelings dont trump reality.

Teridax685 votes

I think Zac is a case of wanting to have one's cake and eat it too: his problem pre-rework was that both his Q and R were relatively boring, and quite reliable, and so the intent behind his rework was to make those abilities more interesting. However, by the end of it neither ability really lost that much on reliability (in fact, his Q arguably became more reliable, as mentioned in the OP), and Zac ended up gaining a much more impactful kit with no significant tradeoffs.

The thing is, I think his new core kit still has the potential to be better than his old one, but it needs to be toned down somewhat. His Q needs to have him fire a skillshot on both targets, particularly since the empowered auto on him feels fairly clunky as a baseline, and could probably lose its slow, as the displacement itself is extremely strong. His W itself is boring, even if the blob collection effect is great, but the real conundrum is his ER: on one hand, Elastic Slingshot is meant to be highly rewarding when you land it, since it requires prediction, preparation, etc. (even if jumping from out of vision range mitigates this a fair bit), but once you hit 6 it basically removes the counterplay from Zac's ult, which was largely the case even before his rework. The two choices right now are to either give his E softer CC, which risks upsetting his core fans, or rework his ult, which would require a lot of work and may also upset a lot of players. In either case, it's not going to be easy.

On a separate note, I also think Zac could stand to lose a lot of damage on his kit. As a tank who already has top-tier initiation, some of the most displacements in the game, plus great sustain, damage is not a strength he needs on top of that. This might just be me, but I think him landing powerful hard CC on his targets is already rewarding enough on its own that he could even have some of his abilities deal no damage at all, and what damage he does need could be moved to his base AD and growth, or his W.

My Waifu Vanilla5 votes

Why are Zac QQ threads still going on. Do none of you read any sort of patch notes? He got hotfixed to take 100 range off of Q2 (it is now BARELY over a juggernauts auto attack range) so the whole "he missed everything and still Q2'd me into a minion" happens so much less because that requires you to be in melee range of him now. His W damage is going down so you can't complain about him doing "lul passive damage" anymore, and Q costs DOUBLE the amount of health and has a longer cooldown.

Stop asking for "when are we nerfing Zac???" when he has been on almost every single patch note since he was reworked.

Limrick4 votes

Just make Zac have to hit a champ with his Q first. It's such bullshit to dodge his E and he just Q's a minion then autos me and I still get CCed.

OyddAWqJ5r4 votes

Why isn't Q just 2 skillshots? Like let him Q during Q to Q 2 people with Q so he can Q stun with skill instead of Q stunning people targeted with Q by Q'ing a minion then Q autoing them after the minion Q for a guaranteed Q stun Q.

QQ

SolarisCorvus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mHAEOVge,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-07-18T11:48:25.005+0000)

Why isn't Q just 2 skillshots? Like let him Q during Q to Q 2 people with Q so he can Q stun with skill instead of Q stunning people targeted with Q by Q'ing a minion then Q autoing them after the minion Q for a guaranteed Q stun Q.

QQ

Q?

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Again the simple answer would be to revert, either his Q or his R.

JMoormann2 votes

His previous Q was an incredibly boring and unsatisfying ability, and I also think his new R offers much more interesting gameplay than the old one. As old Zac during 5v5s, you'd rarely get an opportunity to actually position yourself in such a way that you actually knocked people to a certain direction, which meant that you'd often "just use it" after jumping in and see where the enemy ended up.

So no, I don't think we should go back to "bland line slow" Q and "pop it and see what happens" R

TheMoralSupport7 votes

As old Zac during 5v5s, you'd rarely get an opportunity to actually position yourself in such a way that you actually knocked people to a certain direction,

Personally, I found the old ult to fit his character pretty well, it was fun and chaotic.

Wráthful3 votes

i'm forced to ban this guy every game :/ rito cmon do smthing in-here

flyingbaklava4 votes

You don't, but I understand why you do. There may be 19 champs with higher winrates then Zac, but there is no doubt Zac is not a fun champion to play against now.

Bouncemaster Zac3 votes

I actually made a thread about the rework a couple weeks ago. Long story short, while his old kit was definitely very straightforward, and (in the opinion of literally nobody who actually played him) "boring," it was healthy and balanced. It had clear strengths and weaknesses, no matter how much people bitched that it didn't. It did not have a shitload of damage, and was not completely unavoidable. Entitled mage and adc mains were just pissed a tank was viable so they bitched. And since Rito hate tanks and don't want them viable, they reworked him without valid reason. Then inexplicably massively overbuffed him so now he's permaban. Which also translates to unplayable.

Arsenic Sulfur2 votes

Old Zac was actually boring. Think back on it, after you did your E-R combo did you ever feel like you did something? Did you enjoy being a shitty Mundo? If you answered no to either of these questions there you go. Also his old ult left Wukong out of a job.

And he was reworked so that he could fulfill the goo-man fantasy aswell. He did it well but he could do it better. And when I think actually powerful slime creature, I do think absorption and bounciness.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arsenic Sulfur,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mHAEOVge,comment-id=00140001,timestamp=2017-07-18T20:30:52.783+0000)

Old Zac was actually boring. Think back on it, after you did your E-R combo did you ever feel like you did something? Did you enjoy being a shitty Mundo? If you answered no to either of these questions there you go. Also his old ult left Wukong out of a job.

And he was reworked so that he could fulfill the goo-man fantasy aswell. He did it well but he could do it better. And when I think actually powerful slime creature, I do think absorption and bounciness.

"A shitty Mundo." This is how I know you didn't play him. He was objectively a better choice than Mundo because he provided more than being "AP Garen with no silence," which is what Mundo did.

I did feel like I accomplished a lot after dropping E-R in many cases. Bodyblocking abilities while refreshing hp and dropping a deceptively large %hp dps from spamming W from maneuvering intelligently so that I could gather passive blobs while still being in the way. His new kit doesn't really allow that. Being "more impactful" but with universally higher cooldowns means generating less blobs, and his new Q and R force him to move or position in ways that make utilizing his passive more difficult. Consider: if Zac engages while at full HP he'll spend roughly 10% of his max hp just going in, before getting hit by an enemy once. If he doesn't have the freedom to move around gathering blobs while also generating more by recasting abilities, he's stuck in a spot where he's no longer a great frontliner. His old kit was much bouncier, and with much more absorption. The new kit is simply a kinda-durable kill delivery service.

Kairoptra3 votes

The issue was never that he was unhealthy; Riot made it clear that it was that he wasn't as fun to play as he should've been.

I can attest to that as well: In my experience playing Zac pre-rework, it's just wasn't a particularly good time; his entire kit revolved around being in the immediate vicinity of your opponents. Back then, a gank was over as soon as you miss your E. Nothing about that is fun (imo, don't kill me).

Now that he's had all these changes, he feels so much more satisfying and a gank isn't over as soon as you miss your E. This isn't just about who's playing against him. It's also about those who play as him and with him.

However, game health is a completely different issue, and one that I'm not too keen to weigh in on. I'm not a Zac main or anything, and am by no means willing to go against what you're saying. Just thought I'd drop by and say my piece. Continue with what you were doing.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

He was chewing stat champ.... either he dealed high damage enough or he was garbage

Now u can nerf his damage without kill the champ.

Lincoln : Had ur ass kicked by a zac ? lmao

Itsbeghdev1 votes

no, zac's utility is just too reliable now... guess you're right that you can nerf his damage without gutting him, though, since he doesn't need it at all to be highly effective.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku6 votes

he's a tank to begin. His old kit wasn't reliable enough for cc thing unless his E (was same).

JMoormann2 votes

Exactly. Old Zac had an awesome E. but the only truly interesting gameplay that came from his other abilities was potentially positioning yourself to somewhat control the direction your R would knock someone towards, and in a teamfight you'd never get the time for that which meant that in lategame 5v5s after you jumped in, you'd just press all your buttons and hope for the best.

Daddy Ants2 votes

Zac Draven Fizz Fiora Caitlyn Rammus Yasuo Zed Katarina Lulu MasterYi Thresh Blitzcrank Warwick Xayah Rakan Tryndamere Singed Riven Orianna Syndra Swain Darius DrMundo Kayn Maokai Leblanc

What do all of these have in common?

Not one of them are healthy champs to play against.

BobaFlautist15 votes

You can name literally any champion in the game and I would explain to you how they're unhealthy to play against.

TheFancySkeleton1 votes

Kled. Explain it to me! I need to know how the enemy feels!

EndlessCycle3 votes

Breaks out of CC once you kill his mount, so he's free to shotgun away and escape. Also has Sivir's ult 2.0.

TheFancySkeleton2 votes

Shotgun away with 285 movement speed? I think it would be better if you said:

"Practically unkillable in extended fights."

AwesomeGuyDj2 votes

{quoted}

Shotgun away with 285 movement speed? I think it would be better if you said:

"Practically unkillable in extended fights."

More like, unless you play perfectly or are a VERY good early game duelist, he wins pretty much every early duel.

I Main Swain1 votes

ive found that he's also really hard to target with aa's when he ults too, maybe its just me but its a huge pain. idk why they even reworked him his kit was totally fine before

Automated Riven1 votes

thats cause he is untargetable when he ults.

Random Task2 votes

He is only immune to cc while ulting.

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